'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

[Thanos]

Interviews with US veterans show for the first time the pattern of brutality in Iraq

By Leonard Doyle in Washington

Published: 12 July 2007

It is an axiom of American political life that the actions of the US military are beyond criticism. Democrats and Republicans praise the men and women in uniform at every turn. Apart from the odd bad apple at Abu Ghraib, the US military in Iraq is deemed to be doing a heroic job under trying circumstances.

That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.

The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. "It's not individual atrocity," Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. "It's the fact that the entire war is an atrocity."

A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.

This view is echoed in Washington, where increasing numbers of Democrats and Republicans are openly calling for an early withdrawal from Iraq. And the Iraq quagmire has pushed President George Bush's poll ratings to an all-time low.

Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation's investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.

Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behaviour born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

"It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around," said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

"Every good cop carries a throwaway," Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.

There were also deaths caused by the reckless behaviour of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. "Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean... your order is that you never stop."

The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.

Sgt John Bruhns, 29, of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, described a typical raid. "You want to catch them off guard," he explained. "You want to catch them in their sleep ... You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall... Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds. You'll ask 'Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda?'

"Normally they'll say no, because that's normally the truth," Sgt Bruhns said. "So you'll take his sofa cushions and dump them. You'll open up his closet and you'll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it." And at the end, if the soldiers don't find anything, they depart with a "Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening".

Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. "The mentality of my squad leader was like, 'Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don't have to kill them back in Colorado'," she said. "He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist."

'It would always happen. We always got the wrong house...'

"People would make jokes about it, even before we'd go into a raid, like, 'Oh ****, we're gonna get the wrong house'. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house."

Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003

"I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn't really know what else to do."

Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005

"We were approaching this one house... and we're approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it's doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it... So I see this dog - I'm a huge animal lover... this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he's running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I'm at a loss for words."

Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

"I'll tell you the point where I really turned... [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg... An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me... like asking me why. You know, 'Why do I have a bullet in my leg?'... I was just like, 'This is, this is it. This is ridiculous'."

Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003

"I open a bag and I'm trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, 'Get that **** haji out of here,'... our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, 'You know, he looks fine, he's gonna be all right,' and walks back... kind of like, 'Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic'. So I'm standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy."

Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."

Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003

"I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'... [Only when we got home] in... meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2758829.ece

[Fergasun]

There's a few bad apples in every bunch.... this never happened in World War I, World War II, Korea or Vietnam... and Americans never commit war atrocities. The opening paragraph was so transparent... I bet the soldiers also think, "A dead reporter is just a dead reporter... you know, so what?".

This type of reporting would've led to treason charges 20 years ago... whose side are these people on? It's also true that war is hell. Not defending the actions of our soldiers, but this shouldn't be written about until after the war is over. Again... every bunch has a few bad apples. So why won't these 50 veterans come forward and report wrongdoing through the chain of command? Now it's insinuating the whole chain of command is rotten?

This article is ****ing bull****...

[PleaseBlitz]

War isnt all rainbows kittens and hugs? :whoknows:

[Fergasun]

... and by the way... I watched on TV as desperate people trapped in the twin towers jumped down... and I watched both of those towers collapse down on ~3,000 people... all in a span of 2 hours. We know who started this war... and most of us and our troops would rather not be over there.

[PleaseBlitz]

... and by the way... I watched on TV as desperate people trapped in the twin towers jumped down... and I watched both of those towers collapse down on ~3,000 people... all in a span of 2 hours. We know who started this war... and most of us and our troops would rather not be over there.

Maybe you should speak for yourself. All of the soldiers i know and the ones that post on this board contradict your last statement.

[zoony]

Great article Thanos!

Bono is a racist and our soldiers are pigs. Got it!

....

[McMetal]

That is the sad, dehumanizing effect of war. Regular, well adjusted people are not meant to kill and face death in an environment like that. Those scars run deep.

I just can't see why any parent would want their child subjected to that kind of horror.

[Koolblue13]

That is the sad, dehumanizing effect of war. Regular, well adjusted people are not meant to kill and face death in an environment like that. Those scars run deep.

I just can't see why any parent would want their child subjected to that kind of horror.

I agree. It's a nessicary desensitizing when your in a kill or be killed situation.

[ACW]

We know who started this war

Yes, al-Qaeda, in Afghanistan and Pakistan...so why are we in Iraq again :doh: :whoknows:

[sacase]

Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."

What's the problem with this. The kid is a threat, so he got killed. Who cares how many .50's or Mk-19's get fired as long as the threat is terminated.

I question the motives of many of these guys. It is clear that they lack the moral courage to do the right thing and report it through their chain of command. If that didn't work, then go to IG. There are ways to address the situation, but they choose to go to the media instead of the proper chain of command, to me that says a lot.

The lieutenant is a true POS, if his squad leader had done something like that there he should have had brought him up on non-judicial punishment at the very least. The lieutenant is in charge of the operation and he is either A) lying about what happend or has no freaking clue and doesn't deserve to be in charge anyways. Someone needs to take his commission away.

[tizzod]

Um, it's a called a war. Sue us.

Terrible, terrible attempt at deliberately undermining the troops. They are handcuffed enough as it is over there.

The reporter should be strung up. Hopefully this article completely backfires on whoever had this stupid idea in the first place.

[jpillian]

Those f***ing soldiers. Man, if only we would have sent in the journalists, huh? [/sarcasm]

Hey, I was in the 4th Infantry Divison during the time period that most of those interviewed are talking about. None of us on the ground are omnipresent, so who knows -- maybe I had an entirely un-representive tour. But the experiences represented in this article don't jive with my experience. By the end of our time there, sure, soldiers were not too fond of most Iraqis. That's just a normal part of war. But I never saw anything approaching an attrocity committed. In rare circumstances, you might see a scared, young kid of a soldier getting a little tot rough in doing his job. But officers and NCOs didn't tolerate it if they saw it taking place.

Every so often, we'd hear of an instance of some sort of brutality being committed. For instance, a Lt. Col of an artillery batallion, took over the interrorgation of an Iraqi-policeman turned insurgent that knew information concerning an upcoming assassination that was to take place. To coerce the prisoner, the Lt. Col took out his sidearm and discharged it next to the prisoner's head. The Lt. Col was immediately relieved of his command as a result, and his career was ended (though, interestingly enough, the information which came from the prisoner ended up saving soldiers' lives).

Bottomline, I don't believe this article is a fair representation of the behavior of our soldiers. While we all had some disdain for Iraqi's by the time we left -- brutality was a rare event, and acts of brutality were dealt with very seriously by leadership. I think this journalist went hunting for the worst sort of stories and impressions he could dig up -- and is attempting to characterize such behaviors as commonplace. (And I'm sure it has nothing to do with making a name for himself, and he's pursued this as a completely impartial observer.)

[Ralph Cifaretto]

Newsweek had a special edition a few months ago containing letters from soldiers who had died over in Iraq and Afghanistan. This should be required reading for every American.

I thought I had respected and admired the military before, but after reading this edition from cover to cover, my respect for them multiplied ten fold. It was emotionally gut wrenching to read some of these letters and at times I had to put the magazine down so that I wouldn't end up sobbing my eyes out. The bravery, committment, and sense of purpose that our soldiers have shown is simply astonishing. It's a shame that a hack job such as this article attempts to paint a picture that isn't true for the vast majority of our military.

[Ford]

... and by the way... I watched on TV as desperate people trapped in the twin towers jumped down... and I watched both of those towers collapse down on ~3,000 people... all in a span of 2 hours. We know who started this war... and most of us and our troops would rather not be over there.

Yeah! It was those ... muslims!! Lump em all together and ... and ... shoot em!! :doh:

[cjcdaman]

Yeah! It was those ... muslims!! Lump em all together and ... and ... shoot em!!

Now, you're gettin' it!

[Baculus]

There's a few bad apples in every bunch.... this never happened in World War I, World War II, Korea or Vietnam... and Americans never commit war atrocities. The opening paragraph was so transparent... I bet the soldiers also think, "A dead reporter is just a dead reporter... you know, so what?".

This type of reporting would've led to treason charges 20 years ago... whose side are these people on? It's also true that war is hell. Not defending the actions of our soldiers, but this shouldn't be written about until after the war is over. Again... every bunch has a few bad apples. So why won't these 50 veterans come forward and report wrongdoing through the chain of command? Now it's insinuating the whole chain of command is rotten?

This article is ****ing bull****...

Are you kidding? This happens in every war, especially with wars that have occupiers and a "resistance." That is why "War is hell." In particular, though, the Vietnam war is notorious for some soldiers having a "the best gook is a dead gook" attitude; asymmetric warfare is dirty and ugly, and it can bring out the worst in people, even in tough, professional soldiers.

This is enough of an issue that the latest commanding general in Iraq had to specifically take up the issue of making sure we stay on the side of "right" with our actions and attitudes towards Iraqis.

[herrmag]

Are you kidding? This happens in every war, especially with wars that have occupiers and a "resistance." That is why "War is hell." In particular, though, the Vietnam war is notorious for some soldiers having a "the best gook is a dead gook" attitude; asymmetric warfare is dirty and ugly, and it can bring out the worst in people, even in tough, professional soldiers.

This is enough of an issue that the latest commanding general in Iraq had to specifically take up the issue of making sure we stay on the side of "right" with our actions and attitudes towards Iraqis.

Sarcasm, dude, sarcasm.

[Baculus]

Bottomline, I don't believe this article is a fair representation of the behavior of our soldiers. While we all had some disdain for Iraqi's by the time we left -- brutality was a rare event, and acts of brutality were dealt with very seriously by leadership. I think this journalist went hunting for the worst sort of stories and impressions he could dig up -- and is attempting to characterize such behaviors as commonplace. (And I'm sure it has nothing to do with making a name for himself, and he's pursued this as a completely impartial observer.)

I agree - I just think, in a tough environment, soldiers become concerned about two things: themselves and their buddies. An IED goes off, and "bam," you fire at moving targets. It is human nature in an "ugly place."

I think our soldiers are doing a good job, but I think it is also disingenuous for some folks to act as if this doesn't and isn't happening. If it is happening, then we have to avoid past mistakes in Vietnam and make sure it is rectified, and when the situation improves, it probably will. You remove the need for house-to-house counter-insurgency and remove the thread of IEDs, and a lot of this will vanish. Until that time, we'll probably have more of this stories occur and take place.

[headexplode]

War isnt all rainbows kittens and hugs? :whoknows:

Excepting, of course, the little known Rainbows, Kittens and Hugs War of 1816.

[AJ_Skins]

This is an article from the Independent, which is left wing, based on an article in the Nation, which is essentially communist. Take it for what it is. And see liberals for who they are.

[Destino]

A lot of you have very childish ways of viewing the world. Are you people adults or have I wasted my time on this board talking to a bunch of shallow children. Here is an article detailing what any thinking adult knows to be true, that war is tragic and filled with horrible situations. That's what those interviews are showing us - the ugly side by the people caught up in all this madness.

Are soldiers all great people that are never going to do wrong? They are in some nationalism soaked outlook on war that had no interest in truth. In reality however they are human, braver then most and perhaps with a greater sense of patriotism and responsibility to country, but they are subject to the same flaws as the rest. Some will do horrible things in horrible situations, most will be some mix of good and bad, and some will be the heroes books are written about.

[Baculus]

... and by the way... I watched on TV as desperate people trapped in the twin towers jumped down... and I watched both of those towers collapse down on ~3,000 people... all in a span of 2 hours. We know who started this war... and most of us and our troops would rather not be over there.

This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, or Iraq, period. It is pure emotional hyperbole to draw a connection between the two when everyone admits there are no connections between Iraq and 9-11.

Let's not derail the thread, already!

[cjcdaman]

This is an article from the Independent, which is left wing, based on an article in the Nation, which is essentially communist. Take it for what it is. And see liberals for who they are.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Baculus]

This is an article from the Independent, which is left wing, based on an article in the Nation, which is essentially communist. Take it for what it is. And see liberals for who they are.

Busheviks.

What is odd is that your opinion is a Commie method: "Do not show any truth that will go against the State and its mandate!"

Good job, comrade: Let's make sure the State truth is the only truth.

[Destino]

Those f***ing soldiers. Man, if only we would have sent in the journalists, huh? [/sarcasm]

Hey, I was in the 4th Infantry Divison during the time period that most of those interviewed are talking about. None of us on the ground are omnipresent, so who knows -- maybe I had an entirely un-representive tour. But the experiences represented in this article don't jive with my experience. By the end of our time there, sure, soldiers were not too fond of most Iraqis. That's just a normal part of war. But I never saw anything approaching an attrocity committed. In rare circumstances, you might see a scared, young kid of a soldier getting a little tot rough in doing his job. But officers and NCOs didn't tolerate it if they saw it taking place.

Every so often, we'd hear of an instance of some sort of brutality being committed. For instance, a Lt. Col of an artillery batallion, took over the interrorgation of an Iraqi-policeman turned insurgent that knew information concerning an upcoming assassination that was to take place. To coerce the prisoner, the Lt. Col took out his sidearm and discharged it next to the prisoner's head. The Lt. Col was immediately relieved of his command as a result, and his career was ended (though, interestingly enough, the information which came from the prisoner ended up saving soldiers' lives).

Bottomline, I don't believe this article is a fair representation of the behavior of our soldiers. While we all had some disdain for Iraqi's by the time we left -- brutality was a rare event, and acts of brutality were dealt with very seriously by leadership. I think this journalist went hunting for the worst sort of stories and impressions he could dig up -- and is attempting to characterize such behaviors as commonplace. (And I'm sure it has nothing to do with making a name for himself, and he's pursued this as a completely impartial observer.)

On it's face what you say is BS. Why? Becuase in every large group of people many are going to be less then spectacular humans. This is the same damn story I hear from police officers always claiming they really are as great as their advocates claim them to be... well that's until you talk to someone NOT a cop or one of their fans. It's war and troops are humans, I'd say that it's damn near a sure thing that a ton of crazy **** goes down. Are most bad? Hell no. In fact I'd argue that many of those that do engage is some less the honorable behavior aren't "bad" but more likely caught up in the situation.

But to make it seem like any abuse is as rare as a 4 pound diamond, and even then not so bad... sorry but that's a load of crap I'm not buying.