We've worked on the DL for the past two years

[iceman330]

Totally disagree. Griffin is the only real D-line guy we've broght in here. Wynn and Daniels were done players before they got here. And taking D-line project players in the 5th and 6th rounds don't count.

If you want good D-lineman then you have to draft quality D-lineman and they are found in the first two rounds of the draft. The Problems with skins management and skins fans are that the D-line positions are not "sexy" enough for them to want to take those guys in the first two rounds.

Skins management and fans have to grow up and join the 21st century. Taking D-lineman in the first couple of rounds isn't taboo!

You wrote my thoughts on the work we've done on the DL and on how working on getting 4 guys who can control the line of scrimage is too much real football so it's not popular. You know, who wants to hear about the importance of controlling the LOS when we can get open field hits and INTs. I've been an Okoye guy since draft talk started when we found out which pick we had.

That said, I would not be terribly angry with Landry. He could be one of those cats, like Taylor, who can play either spot; that would give us tremendous flexibility. We would just have to find a way (other than the draft) to have 4 guys up-front who can do the job. HMMMMM, what's a scout's job, again?

[Mr.Z]

Golston started 12 of 16 geames for us as a 6th round draft pick. That should tell you 2 things.

1. Rookies do make a impact

2. We dont have a whole lot to work with in that area.

Either he started because we "dont have a lot to work with" or because he made an impact as a rookie.

by accepting both premises, you have contradicted yourself.

[MRMADD]

However, if we head into 2007 with the current roster, I think the d-line will play much better than they did last season, sans injury of course. Reason being our LB corps and secondary are much improved.

You've got it backwards: improving the DL would help the secondary, but improving the secondary doesn't really do much for the DL. The DL has had trouble getting after the passer for years. Fix it or continue to suffer.

[Morneblade]

Either he started because we "dont have a lot to work with" or because he made an impact as a rookie.

by accepting both premises, you have contradicted yourself.

Or in our case both.

Golston is a 1 gap DT. He played well enough to be a to oust a 2 gap DT. He played pretty well at times, but it's pretty obvious he'd be better as a 1 gap, since that is what he is. And in rotation with Griff, he DID make a impact and played well. But he ended up taking Joes spot, which shows we dont have alot to work with at the 2 gap DT.

See?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I am sure someone will say that this thread has already been started, but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, it seems like we have been bringing in DL for the past two years. '05 was Griffin, and last year was Carter, Golston, and Montgomery. If we draft DL at #6 we are going to start looking like the vikings. Lets give the guys we've got the chance to step up. I know some of you will say that last year was their chance, but Golston and Mont. were rooks, Griffin was hurt, and it was Carter's first year as a skin (that, and he did turn it on at the end of the season).

Why draft Branch or Adams just for them to turn out like Dan Wilkinson or Mario Williams.

Either move up to get CJ (god's gift to QB's), or move back and get Landry (the Ham to Sean Taylor's burger)

sorry for the misspellings and if that last analogy was kinda gay.

wow, we really addressed the dline. we brought in a guy who will be done in a year or so in griffin, 2 2nd day draft picks that might be contributors but are nothing to rely on, and a pass rushing end. so pretty much we have 1 piece steady for the future, no depth real depth, and no frontline starter material for the future. were set! haha

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Or in our case both.

Golston is a 1 gap DT. He played well enough to be a to oust a 2 gap DT. He played pretty well at times, but it's pretty obvious he'd be better as a 1 gap, since that is what he is. And in rotation with Griff, he DID make a impact and played well. But he ended up taking Joes spot, which shows we dont have alot to work with at the 2 gap DT.

See?

i would love to see golston and branch, thats a great combo. branch is huge, golston is quick (actually extremely quick for a DT). coupled with carter who can actually rush the QB, and daniels and maybe a pick next year, our dline would look better. but golston and griffin is too small to work with, so if this isnt addressed, expect us to get run over.

i watched the titans/skins game yesterday, if we dont draft dline ill cry.

[Mr.Z]

Or in our case both.

Golston is a 1 gap DT. He played well enough to be a to oust a 2 gap DT. He played pretty well at times, but it's pretty obvious he'd be better as a 1 gap, since that is what he is. And in rotation with Griff, he DID make a impact and played well. But he ended up taking Joes spot, which shows we dont have alot to work with at the 2 gap DT.

See?

gap assignments aside. either give him some credit or blame his start on depth.

go take a logic class and get back to me, ...but i doubt you will.

[Skinsinparadise]

We need Art back in on this debate. He explains well why our D line works different then many other D lines according to Gregg Williams; schemes and that our LBs and safeties have more responsibilities. And to cookie cutter defenses as if they are all alike is a bit too simple if we want to get to the bottom line.

Think of the NY Giants they have THREE stud Des. Last season their DTs where good too. But aside from Pierce they are weak at LB, and have a poor secondary. And their defense is nothing special.

Now for all those people that say secondary whatever -- its all about the pressure up front if we put pressure Carlos Rogers would be a stud, etc. Well, how come when teams talk about beating the Giants they all talk about beating their secondary. You saw what Campbell did to their secondary. Gosh, how did he do it considering all the studs on the Giants D line?

Now look at the Cowboys -- they have Spears, Canty, Ellis, Ware. Scary stuff. Ellis was hurt last year but otherwise they where healthy. But still they talk about how they get burned in the secondary.

Yeah no question having a good d line is important but my point is if we have questions about the D lineman in the draft and think Landry is a stud. It doesn't strike me that we just have to suck it up and take a chance on the D lineman becuase a great secondary is meaningless if we don't have a great D line -- we all watched the Skins the two years where our D was top 10. We had great linebacker play and secondary what was special about our D line then?

[Laxpunk2006]

Even if Big Joe, Wynn, Griff, and Daniels all step up as All-Pro's this year our defensive line STILL needs help. They are ALL on the wrong side of 30.

The fact that Gregg Williams supposedly won't start a rookie player can work to our advantage. We could take a player such as Gaines Adams who excels as a pass rusher, but needs to bulk up and work on his run game. Since he's not going to start anyway he can be used as a situational pass rusher on third and long or other obvious passing situations. This allows him to contribute, hides his weakness, and earns him game time experience against NFL tackles. This same idea works whether its GA, JA, Jarvis Moss, or whoever. After this season it is likely Big Joe, Wynn, and Daniels could ALL be cut or retire due to their age and inflated cap hits. We need to start adressing the DE position NOW and we don't have any mid round picks to do it.

Our D-line is NOT okay. Next year it is going to be even worse. The fact that GW is not going to start a rookie DL is even MORE reason to draft one this year and work for the future. The player can still get considerable playing time and take over the spot opposite of Carter next season. Hopefully at that point Golston or Montgomery will have emerged next to Griff or we will be spending another first day pick on a DT.

[Chief skin]

We just paid a good amount of money for Fletcher...

Shouldnt we invest some money into someone who will free him to do his job...?

And when did paying someone more than what they were worth stop this team?

Money means nothing

Cap means nothing

Draft a DT @ #6 and pay the kid what that spot is worth.

Exactly if we don't get some reliable D Line help Fletcher will a non factor, fighting off offensive linemen all day

[TheLongshot]

I see what your saying, but it seems like we have a better shot building DL through the FA, after they have already proven themselves.

There never is much through FA as far as DL go. Kereny was really the only impact end out there, and he was damn expensive.

So, what's left are the scraps. You get guys who never lived up to their draft position (Carter), or haven't broken out yet (Griffin), or are solid journeymen (Salave'a) or those who's best seasons are behind them (Daniels).

If the skins are so hungry for DL, why have we not heard about Jenkins? we have entertained every other trade possibility.

It seems like Gibbs is not as unsure of the DL as everyone else is.

I don't think being unsure has anything to do with my concerns. We are probably OK for this year, but next year or the year after? That's why I would like to see the DL drafting continue.

Jason

[lovetoaster]

Why draft Branch or Adams just for them to turn out like Dan Wilkinson or Mario Williams.

Either move up to get CJ (god's gift to QB's), or move back and get Landry (the Ham to Sean Taylor's burger)

You are assuming too much about Landry and Johnson, wide receivers and safties can be busts in the first round as well. There is no such thing as a sure thing, the draft is far from an exact science.

I am sure we can all post a long list of wide receivers that were projected as pro bowlers that did not amount to jack.

The bottom line is Johnson could be a game breaker, but we have much bigger holes to fill on our roster. He would be a luxury that we can not afford to go for right now.

Plus, I don't even think we really have a chance at getting him because he is going to end up as a Buccaneer. I think they will do whatever possible to get him, and they have a lot more picks. Let them piss away their draft, we need our picks.

As for Landry, as I said in another thread, I am warming up to the idea of picking him. I still think DL is the best way to go, but at least there is somewhat of a need for a safety, where I just don't see the desperate need for a WR right now.

[Mr.Z]

You are assuming too much about Landry and Johnson, wide receivers and safties can be busts in the first round as well. There is no such thing as a sure thing, the draft is far from an exact science.

I am sure we can all post a long list of wide receivers that were projected as pro bowlers that did not amount to jack.

The bottom line is Johnson could be a game breaker, but we have much bigger holes to fill on our roster. He would be a luxury that we can not afford to go for right now.

Plus, I don't even think we really have a chance at getting him because he is going to end up as a Buccaneer. I think they will do whatever possible to get him, and they have a lot more picks. Let them piss away their draft, we need our picks.

As for Landry, as I said in another thread, I am warming up to the idea of picking him. I still think DL is the best way to go, but at least there is somewhat of a need for a safety, where I just don't see the desperate need for a WR right now.

you make good points about busts in the draft (everyone remembers how much hype Peter Warrick was). But that is a risk we take on everyone (DL included).

I just really dont want to draft on need this year like we did with carlos Rogers. (i like him, but he was drafted too high)

Sean Taylor was the last draft pick that we didnt draft on need, and he worked out (granted safeties are a little bit safer picks). As i remember, all of the skins fans felt we needed a TE (Winslow). Thank god we didn't draft the position we needed most.

[Morneblade]

gap assignments aside. either give him some credit or blame his start on depth.

go take a logic class and get back to me, ...but i doubt you will.

:laugh:

Sorry, I'll take living with my father (PH.D in Philophy) as a kid over any junk single course you took in college. Wanna get snippy? Fine, be a looser. I"ll explain it to you again anyway.

He beat Joe out, because Joe isnt very good anymore. Or good. Or even average. He's depth at this point. So his START was on depth.

As for his IMPACT, he played very well at the 1 gap and played alot even when Joe was starting at the one gap. In his rotation with Griff he played very well, and made several plays in his natural position. in other words, IMPACT. He was "ok" at the 2 gap, but was overmatched against better lines in that area. But did better than was expected by probably everyone when he was thrown there, since he ended up starting there when Joe was healthy.

So, there you go numbnutz.

Lack of depth=START at the 2 gap

Impact= playing at 50% of the snaps at 1 gap (when not starting at the 2 gap) and playing well when in rotation with Griff.

[Mr.Z]

:laugh:

Sorry, I'll take living with my father (PH.D in Philophy) as a kid over any junk single course you took in college. Wanna get snippy? Fine, be a looser. I"ll explain it to you again anyway.

He beat Joe out, because Joe isnt very good anymore. Or good. Or even average. He's depth at this point. So his START was on depth.

As for his IMPACT, he played very well at the 1 gap and played alot even when Joe was starting at the one gap. In his rotation with Griff he played very well, and made several plays in his natural position. in other words, IMPACT. He was "ok" at the 2 gap, but was overmatched against better lines in that area. But did better than was expected by probably everyone when he was thrown there, since he ended up starting there when Joe was healthy.

So, there you go numbnutz.

Lack of depth=START at the 2 gap

Impact= playing at 50% of the snaps at 1 gap (when not starting at the 2 gap) and playing well when in rotation with Griff.

whose the numbnuts? i havent lived with my parents for 7 years.

you must get no *****.

If you weren't so effin condescending maybe people wouldn't see you as a complete ballsack

[GamaGoliath]

Funny, we're coming off the worst performance by a defensive line in league history, and someone actually believes our work here is done?

Here's a rock-solid guarantee: if our defensive front four doesn't play better, we won't win any more games.

:applause:

No way anyone could be satisfied with the performance of the d-line last season. Regardless of the reasons, they got no pressure on opposing quarterbacks and got their behinds handed to them in the run game. You can't reasonably ignore this problem just to get a glitzy player.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

We need Art back in on this debate. He explains well why our D line works different then many other D lines according to Gregg Williams; schemes and that our LBs and safeties have more responsibilities. And to cookie cutter defenses as if they are all alike is a bit too simple if we want to get to the bottom line.

Think of the NY Giants they have THREE stud Des. Last season their DTs where good too. But aside from Pierce they are weak at LB, and have a poor secondary. And their defense is nothing special.

Now for all those people that say secondary whatever -- its all about the pressure up front if we put pressure Carlos Rogers would be a stud, etc. Well, how come when teams talk about beating the Giants they all talk about beating their secondary. You saw what Campbell did to their secondary. Gosh, how did he do it considering all the studs on the Giants D line?

Now look at the Cowboys -- they have Spears, Canty, Ellis, Ware. Scary stuff. Ellis was hurt last year but otherwise they where healthy. But still they talk about how they get burned in the secondary.

Yeah no question having a good d line is important but my point is if we have questions about the D lineman in the draft and think Landry is a stud. It doesn't strike me that we just have to suck it up and take a chance on the D lineman becuase a great secondary is meaningless if we don't have a great D line -- we all watched the Skins the two years where our D was top 10. We had great linebacker play and secondary what was special about our D line then?

we dont need art to explain this, williams just isnt a big fan of using DEs to bring pressure on the QB, hed rather do it with LB/CB blitzes, which is fine by me because its proven to work and its very off putting for any O coordinator. when you know the DEs are rushing you stop them. when you have no clue whos coming on a blitz, its much more difficult to stop. but williams is known to be a "stop the run first" guy, and with no solid DTs, your whole defense is worthless at that point. if williams is truly committed to stopping the run, DT is where the upgrade should be, because we couldnt stop the run at all.

i also had an interesting discussion with a huge life long bills fans who claims that fletcher is one of the best MLB in football ONLY WHEN he has great DTs in front of him. fletchers most productive years were when he had a good sam adams in front of him clogging that middle. so we better address the DL with DTs in this draft or were doomed.

[Pedro]

Or do we draft a DT and Golston and Monty prove they can actually play in this league and now we have extra Tackles?

We wouldn't have extra tackles. Griffen is nearly done and Joe already is. Assuming Golsten and Montgomery were good enough to start, and we draft a DT who is also good enough to start it would mean we have 1 good guy to bring in and rotate.

Of course if we get a starter calibre DT in this draft it will allow our old guys and our 'not good enough yet' guys to rotate and keep fresh. Fact is we need a stud DT and DE now plus we definately need DE depth and probably DT too.

We should be drafting DL this year and next (maybe not with a first unless it is a can't miss but definately day 1).

Now assuming we do this and Santa leaves us a couple of DL studs too (which is the only way we could be overstocked in the near to medium future) then we can trade them. For lots. Because good DL are worth a lot due most teams appreciating their importance.

Maybe GW can scheme around needing a good DL but last year says not (and missed tackles/coverage doesn't cut it, as the D coach he has to plan for the players he has not wants). He even commented that other coaches had figured him out. Even if you do figure out the scheme a good DL will make it mighty hard to do anything against it (assuming the rest of your D is at worst ok and doesn't suck).

So maybe the thread title should be changed to 'We need to work on the DL for the next 2 years'.

[Hauss]

Either move up to get CJ (god's gift to QB's), or move back and get Landry (the Ham to Sean Taylor's burger) .

Didn't we work on safety last year?

[Veretax]

I am leaning towards drafting a DT or a guy like Carriker that COuld maybe rotate out to End if we needed him to.

WHile I'd love to have CJ, i just don't see how we can get him without further killing our franchise.

[SkinsManNJ]

hahaha i gotcha, i see the argument you bring up but at the same time we do need a solid middle run stopping DT. As well as some consistent depth

Depth and a Branch size player in the late rounds, I hope we get him. Check him out Walter Thomas. He could be a steal.

[Mr.Z]

Didn't we work on safety last year?

Yeah, but landry is special

[Morneblade]

whose the numbnuts? i havent lived with my parents for 7 years.

you must get no *****.

If you weren't so effin condescending maybe people wouldn't see you as a complete ballsack

You started out with the condesending remarks, or is your ADD that bad?

And I guess you missed the "as a child" part of living with my father, so your reading comp needs to work too.

Besides the fact that I responded to your condisending remark in kind, and you misread that I lived with my dad through highschool, did you actually read the meat of the post?

And most people think I'm a real nice guy actually. Who'd have thunk it! :laugh:

[REDSKINZ-RIDEORDIE]

So, what's left are the scraps. You get guys who never lived up to their draft position (Carter), or haven't broken out yet (Griffin), or are solid journeymen (Salave'a) or those who's best seasons are behind them (Daniels).

True.

[SkinsManNJ]

Totally disagree. Griffin is the only real D-line guy we've broght in here. Wynn and Daniels were done players before they got here. And taking D-line project players in the 5th and 6th rounds don't count.

If you want good D-lineman then you have to draft quality D-lineman and they are found in the first two rounds of the draft. The Problems with skins management and skins fans are that the D-line positions are not "sexy" enough for them to want to take those guys in the first two rounds.

Skins management and fans have to grow up and join the 21st century. Taking D-lineman in the first couple of rounds isn't taboo!

Drafting quality D-lineman doesnt just come from the 1st 2 rounds. You can find that all through-out the draft. Better luck finding some is in the 3rd and 4th rounds. You get more bang for your buck.

Its not that they arent sexy enough, its if we try to plug any of these guys in there for what we pay them they wont be able to handle a seasoned O-line especially in the NFC East.

But yes we could very well find some good ones in the first 2 rounds, only problem is we only have 1 first day pick.