Something to keep in mind about Calvin Johnson: Kellen Winslow Jr.

[BleedBNG]

Mentioning those two is a totally invalid point. They have as much to do with CJ as Mel Torme has to do with Condoleeza Rice.

[bobzmuda]

Shake it Madam Secretary!

[dinzelwashington]

we are going to get a d player i garentee it in the first. so stop with the calvin johnson. we can mold offense with time but a d man, they mold themselves.

[SkinsFanAnt]

You don't have to worry about us getting CJ...we will not...there is not way we'll be able to draft the guy. This is a pointless thread.

[tritx3]

DEFENSE, DEFENSE, DEFENSE!

We can look at Indy before last season. They couldn't go all the way with just offense. Even with their godly offense. I would love love love to have CJ, but we really need some help on D. By the looks of things.. we would have to trade up to get him anyway and that would seriously screw us over if we had to give up more picks. Redskins fans... we're so spoiled. Think of the consequences for once!

[desioreo87]

Yes we need a big RZ target that doesn't mean we have to go and screw up at #6 by picking CJ. We just need a tall posession receiver for the redzone. If you all remember Darnerian McCants was that guy for us and he was like the 3rd or 4th receiver for this team but he always showed up in the redzone. Thats all we need, another mccants.

[Veretax]

Drafting Calvin Johnson is looking toward the future. He is a much better athlete than Kelen Winslow, who was considered very good for a TE. Plus, his talent level really has nothing to do with Calvin Johnson's talent.

Johnson has been a very productive WR with generally average talent around him. He has ideal WR measurables and has played his best in big games in a tough conference (not the best in the country, but the ACC is no slouch).

Its too bad we wont get the chance to pull the trigger.

Yeah and he did all that with Reggie "Couldn't score high enough in my last semester as a player" ball as QB. I tell ya CJ is as close to a sure thing in this draft as there is. And we got the QB and a decent enough oline to make full use of his size and skills. If he comes here I say we get him to soot up in #81

What about his lapses in concentration that lead to 1-2 drops a game?

There are no shure things when it comes to college players projecting to the NFL considering none of the college players have played against pro defenses.

Plus, some players just never "get" the pro game and struggle to adapt.

What wide receiver doesn't have some drops in a game? Secondly, if the QB can't get the ball where it needs to go then the catch is more difficult. CJ and JC together wouldn't just be a palindrome when their initials are combined, they are instant success guaranteed.

No your right nothing is 100% sure, but I'd wager that CJ on a good team is an 80% certainty. Thats better then the 50/50 shot on some of them top Dlineman.

DEFENSE, DEFENSE, DEFENSE!

We can look at Indy before last season. They couldn't go all the way with just offense. Even with their godly offense. I would love love love to have CJ, but we really need some help on D. By the looks of things.. we would have to trade up to get him anyway and that would seriously screw us over if we had to give up more picks. Redskins fans... we're so spoiled. Think of the consequences for once!

Dude, did you just compare our current anemic offense to the Colts? Please dude go back and check the tape. With Brunell in we hardly had a pass more then 20 yards in the air. Our running game was beat up this is true, but even under JC we didn't improve that much. Now I hope a year as a starter in camp will make a huge difference for JC I really do, but Seriously if you had to choose between drafting CJ and keeping him for ten years, versus keeping lloyd or El who would you pick?

Yes we need a big RZ target that doesn't mean we have to go and screw up at #6 by picking CJ. We just need a tall posession receiver for the redzone. If you all remember Darnerian McCants was that guy for us and he was like the 3rd or 4th receiver for this team but he always showed up in the redzone. Thats all we need, another mccants.

Yeah how many 4th and goals in the end of the season did we mess up because our only way to get it in was a pass to Cooley or to run it in? Adding CJ at least makes the defense be honest in the redzone and that means more TDs for Portis/betts

[Tastes Like Chicken]

If he comes here I say we get him to soot up in #81

:nutkick:

[tritx3]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tritx3]

Dude, did you just compare our current anemic offense to the Colts? Please dude go back and check the tape. With Brunell in we hardly had a pass more then 20 yards in the air. Our running game was beat up this is true, but even under JC we didn't improve that much.

No, I'm simply saying even IF we have a really good offense, we still need a defense.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Maybe, maybe not. But the WR position in general lends itself to headcase "me guys." There have been a lot of WRs that have come to the league without problems and morphed into grade A jerkoffs.

There is no maybe maybe not here DD

Coming out of college everyone knew what an arrogant pompous jerk KW2 was

CJ has exhibted NONE of those behaviors. He played with a horrible inaccurate QB prone to turnovers each game, yet never lost his own cool. He played against very good defenses where he was singled out every game. Never lost his cool and quite frankly dominated

Attitude is the biggest difference. CJ has the attitude you want in a player. Hard worker, humble, smart

He would be a great asset on the field and someone we could be proud of off the fied

[The Consigliere]

The KWII/Calvin Johnson comparison makes no sense to me for several reasons.

#1, KWII's attittude sucks. It did in college, and it did when he got to the NFL. The book on Calvin Johnson is that for all his physical talent (which is off the charts) his best attribute may be his attitude.

#2, It is impossible to say that KWII isnt going to be a very good TE. He hasnt been on the field, and he hasnt had a QB that can run a legitimate offense. Obviously EVERY team needs a QB that can make plays and get the ball to his playmakers. The Skins HAVE to proceed assumming that Campbell can be effective. If they DONT, then they should use that 1st pick on a QB. Personally, i think Jason can do the job.

#3, It isnt a legitimate knock on CJ to simply say "any draft pick can be a bust" because the same can be said for ANYONE ELSE that we use that pick on. CJ is the closest thing to a sure thing in this whole draft, at any position, and is the surest thing at WR since Larry Fitzgerald, and probably even before.

#1: Spot on.

#2: Don't let a fallacious argument defeat you. KWII lead all TE's in receptions last year, and he didn't lead by a smidgen. The nearest TE was 16 receptions behind him, or nearly 20% less productive in terms of receptions. KWII also finished third among TE's in yardage (49 yards behind Gates who lead in TE Yardage). KWII actually finished in the top 10 of all players in terms of total receptions (he had 89). So let's stop the KWII can't get it done nonsense. After two season ending injuries KWII came in, and dominated with freaking Charlie Frye and Derek Freaking Anderson throwing him the ball. Apparently none of the "KWII sucks" contingent noticed (I happen to think the guy is a tool, but he's a talented one, and it's intellectually dishonest to argue otherwise).

#3 Agreed. Johnson is not an absolute lock, but he's the closest one to a lock. Joe Thomas comes close, but Big-10 LT's have busted before and recently, and he's also coming off a knee injury a year ago which is worrisome. No such worries with Johnson.

[REDSKINZ-RIDEORDIE]

You don't have to worry about us getting CJ...we will not...there is not way we'll be able to draft the guy. This is a pointless thread.

I agree, and Im also tired of of these draft threads in general. I mean, this is ES, so I cant stop threads from being made. But unless its official news, Im not trying to hear about the draft. Itz exciting, but also, itz in late April. Im tired of all the speculation, cause thats all it is. Talk to me the week of the draft. But we have another month in some change, before the actual draft happens.

[[[ghost]]]

TRADE UP FOR Calvin Johnson. The difference between Winslow and Calvin is 4-3

Calvin Johnson is going to be the Kobe Bryant of his sport.

Picking Calvin Johnson at number 6 is stupid enough, trading up for him is even stupider than drafting a WR in the top 10 three straight years.

[Hamilbone13]

Kellen Winslow being a "head" case destroyed his chances at being drafted by the Skins (although S. Taylor hasn't been the model citizen). C Johnson is simply sick. Chan Gailey said that he is the best WR he's ever coached at ANY level. With that said, we will not get him at #6. At this point, I'm just hoping we don't screw this up and NOT pick Adams!!!

[Dirk Diggler]

There is no maybe maybe not here DD

Coming out of college everyone knew what an arrogant pompous jerk KW2 was

CJ has exhibted NONE of those behaviors. He played with a horrible inaccurate QB prone to turnovers each game, yet never lost his own cool. He played against very good defenses where he was singled out every game. Never lost his cool and quite frankly dominated

Attitude is the biggest difference. CJ has the attitude you want in a player. Hard worker, humble, smart

He would be a great asset on the field and someone we could be proud of off the fied

Let's get something straight here...because a lot of you are using the benefit of 3 years of stupid decisions by KW2 to play it off like "everyone knew this and that when he was drafted."

KW2 was known as surly and brash back in 2004 but he was certainly NOT considered a bad guy or a potentially bad teammate. If he was, wouldn't he have been either off our board or knocked down substantially? He was considered a very close #2 to Sean Taylor and Gibbs has said as much.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Let's get something straight here...because a lot of you are using the benefit of 3 years of stupid decisions by KW2 to play it off like "everyone knew this and that when he was drafted."

KW2 was known as surly and brash back in 2004 but he was certainly NOT considered a bad guy or a potentially bad teammate. If he was, wouldn't he have been either off our board or knocked down substantially? He was considered a very close #2 to Sean Taylor and Gibbs has said as much.

No not really. I am using 3 years of him at the University of Miami, and being my team was in the same conference as the U, I followed him very closely

Remember the "I am a ****ing soldier comment?" That was just the tip of the iceberg

This is the guy who gave himself the nickname "The Chosen One" after his freshmen year

Trash talking on the field, cheap shots and just being a straight up jackass

Having followed CJ for the last 3 years, he has had NOTHING like KW2 racked up in his college career

[Dirk Diggler]

#2, It is impossible to say that KWII isnt going to be a very good TE. He hasnt been on the field, and he hasnt had a QB that can run a legitimate offense. Obviously EVERY team needs a QB that can make plays and get the ball to his playmakers. The Skins HAVE to proceed assumming that Campbell can be effective. If they DONT, then they should use that 1st pick on a QB. Personally, i think Jason can do the job.

#2: Don't let a fallacious argument defeat you. KWII lead all TE's in receptions last year, and he didn't lead by a smidgen. The nearest TE was 16 receptions behind him, or nearly 20% less productive in terms of receptions. KWII also finished third among TE's in yardage (49 yards behind Gates who lead in TE Yardage). KWII actually finished in the top 10 of all players in terms of total receptions (he had 89). So let's stop the KWII can't get it done nonsense. After two season ending injuries KWII came in, and dominated with freaking Charlie Frye and Derek Freaking Anderson throwing him the ball. Apparently none of the "KWII sucks" contingent noticed (I happen to think the guy is a tool, but he's a talented one, and it's intellectually dishonest to argue otherwise).

You both need to read my initial post again because the only fallacies are what u seem to believe you read.

I was not dumping on KW - my point was that he's not completing or revolutionizing anything without a good supporting cast - most importantly a solid QB. KW was seen as just as much of a cant miss as CJ currently is though most folks' memories seem to be failing them. But you make my point in talking about how CLeveland lack of a supporting cast hurts KW - limiting his opportunities.

And even if I was arguing against what KW has done - it wouldn't be that hard. Last season was nothing to write home about. He was force fed the ball - who cares how many receptions he had if they were practically all 5 yard button hooks? He had only 3 Tds. Cooley had twice as many his rookie year. Receptions don't = production. Yards and TDs do. Dominated? Hardly.

[Dirk Diggler]

No not really. I am using 3 years of him at the University of Miami, and being my team was in the same conference as the U, I followed him very closely

Remember the "I am a ****ing soldier comment?" That was just the tip of the iceberg

This is the guy who gave himself the nickname "The Chosen One" after his freshmen year

Trash talking on the field, cheap shots and just being a straight up jackass

Having followed CJ for the last 3 years, he has had NOTHING like KW2 racked up in his college career

Show me some scouting reports that echo everything you just said.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Show me some scouting reports that echo everything you just said.

How about we go to the video tape?

The soldier at the U

Now find me an example of CJ being a jerk off in the media after a tough loss

[Dirk Diggler]

How about we go to the video tape?

The soldier at the U

Now find me an example of CJ being a jerk off in the media after a tough loss

We're all aware of that idiotic response. But you're coming off like an emotional Hokie fan. Like I said, I want scouting reports that warned about his character and attitude. Brash? Yes. Surly? Yes. But not the type of guy who would be disruptive to the team or make dumb off field decisions.

Again...why was he Gibbs's backup option to Taylor? Why did Butch Davis, a coach who knew more about him than anyone, trade his 2nd rounder to move up one spot in the 1st round to get him if he was such a bad guy?

[SkinsHokieFan]

We're all aware of that idiotic response. But you're coming off like an emotional Hokie fan. Like I said, I want scouting reports that warned about his character and attitude. Brash? Yes. Surly? Yes. But not the type of guy who would be disruptive to the team or make dumb off field decisions.

Again...why was he Gibbs's backup option to Taylor? Why did Butch Davis, a coach who knew more about him than anyone, trade his 2nd rounder to move up one spot in the 1st round to get him if he was such a bad guy?

Talent, pure talent. The kid could flat our play, and play ball real well

What you did was make a comparision that Calvin Johnson could be KW2 with the title of your thread

You are warning us about Calvin Johnson because of what happened to KW2. What I am arguing, and what any Big East fan between 2001-2003 will argue is that this is not the case. CJ as a person is much less of a risk then KW2 was coming out of college. Its in the tape, its in the actions on the field. I'll be happy to search for some quotes from him criticizing Brock Berlin during the 2003 season, who was 10 times the QB Reggie Ball was. Find me quotes from CJ on Reggie Ball

I'll search for some scouting reports also.

Ask our mountaineer brethern on this board about what they think of KW2. Notice that PB in his post also pointed to attitude. And if you know PB and I, we rarely agree on anything NCAA football wise

[SkinsHokieFan]

Just for you Dirk Diggler. PB is a WVU fan. Echo's the same comments I made

The KWII/Calvin Johnson comparison makes no sense to me for several reasons.

#1, KWII's attittude sucks. It did in college, and it did when he got to the NFL. The book on Calvin Johnson is that for all his physical talent (which is off the charts) his best attribute may be his attitude.

#2, It is impossible to say that KWII isnt going to be a very good TE. He hasnt been on the field, and he hasnt had a QB that can run a legitimate offense. Obviously EVERY team needs a QB that can make plays and get the ball to his playmakers. The Skins HAVE to proceed assumming that Campbell can be effective. If they DONT, then they should use that 1st pick on a QB. Personally, i think Jason can do the job.

#3, It isnt a legitimate knock on CJ to simply say "any draft pick can be a bust" because the same can be said for ANYONE ELSE that we use that pick on. CJ is the closest thing to a sure thing in this whole draft, at any position, and is the surest thing at WR since Larry Fitzgerald, and probably even before.

[Veretax]

No, I'm simply saying even IF we have a really good offense, we still need a defense.

We do have a defense, and I tell you that if we don't have PP go out on the first play of the game, our season could be different, we could very well be 8-8 rather then 5-11.

Talent, pure talent. The kid could flat our play, and play ball real well

What you did was make a comparision that Calvin Johnson could be KW2 with the title of your thread

You are warning us about Calvin Johnson because of what happened to KW2. What I am arguing, and what any Big East fan between 2001-2003 will argue is that this is not the case. CJ as a person is much less of a risk then KW2 was coming out of college. Its in the tape, its in the actions on the field. I'll be happy to search for some quotes from him criticizing Brock Berlin during the 2003 season, who was 10 times the QB Reggie Ball was. Find me quotes from CJ on Reggie Ball

I'll search for some scouting reports also.

Ask our mountaineer brethern on this board about what they think of KW2. Notice that PB in his post also pointed to attitude. And if you know PB and I, we rarely agree on anything NCAA football wise

Yeah same here I'm a WVU Almnus and long time Mountaineer fan and let me tell you, I didn't believe the hype before the Gator Bowl, but man that guy even when tripple and quadruple covered scared the crap out of me of how sick good he was.

[SkinsHokieFan]

A "pay for" article from 2004

The Denver Rocky Mountain News

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-115839759.html

WINSLOW TOTES SOME BAGGAGE.(Sports)

From: Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO) | Date: April 23, 2004 | Author: DeBruin, Lynn | More results for: kellen winslow jr attitude

See more articles from Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO)

Byline: Lynn DeBruin, Rocky Mountain News

Shannon Sharpe knows a thing or two about tight ends, and there's no question he likes what he sees in Kellen Winslow Jr.

"I see him as the guy who best resembles me," said Sharpe, who announced Wednesday he is returning for his 15th NFL season.

The future Hall of Famer goes so far as to call Winslow a sure-fire, can't-miss prospect.

But others aren't so sure.

It has nothing to do with Winslow's pedigree or his stats at the University of Miami.

Critics point to Winslow's "me-first" attitude at times and his ...