Campbel goes down... a what if

[Veretax]

I'd rather give a 25 yr old 2-3 years to develope than watch a 37 yr old with creaky legs and noodle arm continue to stuggle to throw it past the Line of scrimmage.

Oh but I thought he was "super smart"

[skeenzfan]

I am. Brunell started 9 games and Campbell started 7, yet Brunell has about 40% more completions over 20 yards. Besides, Brunell's yards per attempt are significantly higher as well, and that stat is right regardless of the number of games played.

How many of those passes actually were thrown 20 yards? I have highlighted the ones that atleast i remember being five yard dumps thats were converted into big plays by receivers. So this would basically mean 11 as far as i remember where the ball even travelled 20 yarsds. If my math is correct that is one freaking 20+ yards throw per game. Now don't give me any more crap about boonel's yards per average.

Minnesota game:

M.Brunell pass short left to L.Betts to MIN 10 for 25 yards (D.Sharper)

M.Brunell pass deep right to S.Moss to MIN 6 for 37 yards

M.Brunell pass deep right to S.Moss pushed ob at MIN 39 for 23 yards

Dallas game:

none

Houston game:

M.Brunell pass to C.Portis pushed ob at HST 13 for 74 yards

M.Brunell pass short left to A.Randle El for 23 yards, TOUCHDOWN

M.Brunell pass to A.Randle El to HST 33 for 27 yards

M.Brunell pass deep middle to D.Patten to HST 34 for 25 yards

JaX game:

M.Brunell pass short middle to S.Moss for 55 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

M.Brunell pass deep middle to C.Cooley to JAX 45 for 22 yards

M.Brunell pass deep left to B.Lloyd ran ob at JAX 5 for 33 yards.

M.Brunell pass short right to C.Portis pushed ob at JAX 42 for 23 yards

Last play before going to overtime...sort of a screen pass. Jax playing for OT

M.Brunell pass deep left to S.Moss for 68 yards, TOUCHDOWN

NYG game:

None

Tennesse game:

M.Brunell pass deep right to C.Cooley for 24 yards, TOUCHDOWN

M.Brunell pass deep middle to S.Moss to TEN 47 for 25 yards- last play before the half sort of hail mary with Ten playing prevent

M.Brunell pass deep middle to B.Lloyd to TEN 4 for 52 yards

Ind game:

M.Brunell pass deep middle to A.Randle El to IND 42 for 30 yards

Dallas game:

M.Brunell pass short left to C.Cooley pushed ob at WAS 46 for 21 yards

M.Brunell pass deep middle to J.Thrash to DAL 18 for 27 yards

M.Brunell pass short right to C.Cooley to DAL 42 for 27 yards-last play before the half so basically a garbage throw..

M.Brunell pass short left to L.Betts to DAL 43 for 21 yards

Philly Game:

M.Brunell pass deep left to B.Lloyd to PHI 17 for 43 yards

[#98QBKiller]

Only certain people, most of us get that. No running game when everyone is up at the line because you have absolutely no threat of passing deep. Not a hard thing to figure out really. :doh:

Not hard at all. But some people definitely have trouble with it.

Counting only RB carries

The average for 9 games under Brunell is 25.4 carries a game.

The average for 7 games under Campbell is 28.57...

Average difference of 4 carries per game.

Brunell had the two highest individual games with 37 and 38

And Campbell had the lowest single game total with 14

If you want to get back to my point about how they were able to run in games that they had a lead, where Brunell wasn't killing them we can....if not whatever.

Consistency in the effectiveness of the running game came during Campbell's time under center....but with a few exceptions under Brunell the offense was still trying to move the ball on the ground, but could not.

There are certainly several factors for the success of the running game during Campbell's time...more cohension from the OL....etc...but certainly one of the factors was having a QB that was executing his part of the game plan better than Brunell.

Sure the running game helps QB's.....but clearly vice versa.

Cyber Pimp....oh Cyber Pimp...where are you buddy?

[Cyber Pimp]

Not hard at all. But some people definitely have trouble with it.

Cyber Pimp....oh Cyber Pimp...where are you buddy?

I'm still around son. Go back and look at the game. We didnt have a ground attack so there was no need to stack the box. The need was to stop the pass. Thats why teams played us in the cover 2. Like I said the way to beat a cover 2 D is to run the ball. That will force the defences to move the safties up. Why would team want to stack the box against an hurt CP and Betts. When the bigger threat was SM, ARE and BL. Like I said before a lot of you guys never played a lick of football. So therefore you truly dont know the game itself. You guys sit around reading post after post from other non football playing people and run with it. A lot of the wives of current redskin players teach football classes for people that really dont know the game. I think so of you guys need to go register.

[Cyber Pimp]

And Brunell said himself, he struggles against cover 2 defenses.

He struggled because there was no ground attack. The way to beat a cover 2 is to run, run and run the ball. And make short passes. When you do these things that will force the defences to move up to protect the middle of the field. Once the safties commit to stopping the run and the short passes. Then you can pass on them. I played organized football for many many years. Talk to people that know the game.

[Om]

CP, your cartoonish condescension notwithstanding ... in your 1+1=2 view of NFL football, how does a QB who either cannot or will not go downfield with the ball regardless of what the D is doing factor in? In your vast playing experience, how many times did you come up against that, and how did you respond?

[fwo40]

He struggled because there was no ground attack. The way to beat a cover 2 is to run, run and run the ball. And make short passes. When you do these things that will force the defences to move up to protect the middle of the field. Once the safties commit to stopping the run and the short passes. Then you can pass on them. I played organized football for many many years. Talk to people that know the game.

Some of us who played football in organized envirnoments disagree with you too. Like me.

Just so you know.

:cool:

[Cyber Pimp]

Some of us who played football in organized envirnoments disagree with you too. Like me.

Just so you know.

:cool:

CP, your cartoonish condescension notwithstanding ... in your 1+1=2 view of NFL football, how does a QB who either cannot or will not go downfield with the ball regardless of what the D is doing factor in? In your vast playing experience, how many times did you come up against that, and how did you respond?

Im just stating facts. Saying that someone cant throw downfield is cartoonish and 1+1 to me. Saying that teams where stacking 8 and 9 people in the box against a hurt CP and Betts is stupid. I'm pretty sure during practices Brunell was throwing downfield. So he was capable of doing it. If he wasnt able to do it in practice thats a different story. The reason he wasnt able to do it in a game was because he faced a cover 2 D alot. A cover 2 is design to take away the pass. The weakness of the cover 2 is down the seams in the middle of the field. If you are able to establish a running game against a cover two and compelte short passes to the sidelines and middle of the field. The defending safties will have to move up to defend the run. Once they move up you can throw deep downfield. Like always I like you OM. If there is anyone who would like to come over my crib on game day is more then welcomed. We can sit down and analyize it together.

[Morneblade]

The hole in the zone is right down the middle of the field, deep in the cover 2. Mark didnt throw that ball ever though. Jason did. Running helps because you can use play-action to hold hte MLB from his drop and gives you a little better lane to throw, but that's the only real advantage. If you go back into a 5-7 step drop and dont use play action, the deep middle is still open.

[Reic]

A cover 2 is design to take away the pass. The weakness of the cover 2 is down the seams in the middle of the field. If you are able to establish a running game against a cover two and compelte short passes to the sidelines and middle of the field. The defending safties will have to move up to defend the run. Once they move up you can throw deep downfield.

The safties won't have to cheat if they know brunell will throw a dump pass, and the other 10 players on defense know he is going to dump pass, and the D-coordinator knows he is going to dump pass and the dump pass is defended by the corners and LBs while the safties cover deep because they know Brunell is going to throw a dump pass...

If you run on any team they are going to cheat the safties up, no matter which defensive scheme they are playing.

[Reic]

The hole in the zone is right down the middle of the field, deep in the cover 2. Mark didnt throw that ball ever though. Jason did. Running helps because you can use play-action to hold hte MLB from his drop and gives you a little better lane to throw, but that's the only real advantage. If you go back into a 5-7 step drop and dont use play action, the deep middle is still open.

Don't forget that you can stall the safties too with a good play action

[Cyber Pimp]

The hole in the zone is right down the middle of the field, deep in the cover 2. Mark didnt throw that ball ever though. Jason did. Running helps because you can use play-action to hold hte MLB from his drop and gives you a little better lane to throw, but that's the only real advantage. If you go back into a 5-7 step drop and dont use play action, the deep middle is still open.

The hole in the cover 2 will be between the MLB's and the Safties. The safties will move back to defend the deep ball. Which leaves the middle of the field open. Not Deep in the middle of the field. If your oline does not give you enough protection so the WR's can get downfield fast to move the safties out of the zone you are going to be in trouble. If you can establish a running game and complete short passes to the middle of the field that will force the safties to move up closer to the LOS. If you can get the safties closer to the LOS then you have a better chance of getting the ball downfield deep. Like I said I lot of you guys read articles and posts but no nothing about this chess game called football. yall still on the checkers level.

[#98QBKiller]

I'm still around son. Go back and look at the game. We didnt have a ground attack so there was no need to stack the box. The need was to stop the pass. Thats why teams played us in the cover 2. Like I said the way to beat a cover 2 D is to run the ball. That will force the defences to move the safties up. Why would team want to stack the box against an hurt CP and Betts. When the bigger threat was SM, ARE and BL. Like I said before a lot of you guys never played a lick of football. So therefore you truly dont know the game itself. You guys sit around reading post after post from other non football playing people and run with it. A lot of the wives of current redskin players teach football classes for people that really dont know the game. I think so of you guys need to go register.

Do you want to get into a pissing contest about who played more football or do you want to look at the facts here?

The facts are:

A: Mark Brunell is either incapable of throwing the deep ball with any accuracy or he is scared to.

B: The Cover 2 is not a foolproof defense.

The Chicago Bears played the Cover 2 throughout Super Bowl 41 and guess what? The Colts brought home the Lombardi trophy. Yes, both of their running backs racked up big time rushing yards in that game, but their QB also racked up big time passing yards.

The Cover 2 leaves holes underneath and even if every team we played while Brunell was our QB ran the Cover 2 all game, Mark Brunell still couldn't find the holes (insert joke here) and wasn't a threat throwing the ball downfield either. But that wasn't the case.

Teams did not play more Cover 2 against us in the beginning of the season than they played with extra guys up front. Because they easily shutdown our painfully predictible draw play, reverse, or Mark's screen passes behind the line of scrimmage.

If the Cover 2 were the answer to stopping every passing-oriented offense in the NFL, teams like The Colts, Bengals, and Patriots would have no success through the air at all.

And even if teams played nothing but the Cover 2 against Brunell:rolleyes: (notice the sarcasm here) then why is he not a good enough QB to pick apart the holes and find receivers underneath?

Could that be why Campbell was inserted against Tampa Bay?

[pjfootballer]

He struggled because there was no ground attack. The way to beat a cover 2 is to run, run and run the ball. And make short passes. When you do these things that will force the defences to move up to protect the middle of the field. Once the safties commit to stopping the run and the short passes. Then you can pass on them. I played organized football for many many years. Talk to people that know the game.

I played organized football myself and have been watching the Skins play for over 30 years. The way to beat the cover 2 with the pass is to throw it over the middle, something even Noodle arm couldn't do. Manning did it all day long to Urlacher. Let him drop back and hit Addai or the TE over the middle. The Bears cover 2 essentially took away Harrison and Wayne. why didn't Boonell throw underneath? Because his time is done, thats why. Don't go making assumption about who has played football and who hasn't. You don't know any of us, and just because someone played, doesn't mean they are experts at it.

[pjfootballer]

The hole in the cover 2 will be between the MLB's and the Safties. The safties will move back to defend the deep ball. Which leaves the middle of the field open. Not Deep in the middle of the field. If your oline does not give you enough protection so the WR's can get downfield fast to move the safties out of the zone you are going to be in trouble. If you can establish a running game and complete short passes to the middle of the field that will force the safties to move up closer to the LOS. If you can get the safties closer to the LOS then you have a better chance of getting the ball downfield deep. Like I said I lot of you guys read articles and posts but no nothing about this chess game called football. yall still on the checkers level.

You might have played alot of football, but you obviously didn't watch the first 9 games of the season when teams were coming with all out blitzes, throwing 8 and 9 men at Boonell. The knew he wasn't going deep, so they took away the middle of the cover 2 by forcing us to leave in our TE's and RB's to block making it hard to for Boonell to decide where to go with the ball. He couldn't exploit the hole in the cover 2 D. Even though he only throws 10 yard passes, he still counldn't even do that. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence about football in here. You're not the end all to knowing football and there is nothing (i.e. a certificate or award) that makes you anymore of an expert on the game than any of us.

[Morneblade]

The hole in the cover 2 will be between the MLB's and the Safties. The safties will move back to defend the deep ball. Which leaves the middle of the field open. Not Deep in the middle of the field. If your oline does not give you enough protection so the WR's can get downfield fast to move the safties out of the zone you are going to be in trouble. If you can establish a running game and complete short passes to the middle of the field that will force the safties to move up closer to the LOS. If you can get the safties closer to the LOS then you have a better chance of getting the ball downfield deep. Like I said I lot of you guys read articles and posts but no nothing about this chess game called football. yall still on the checkers level.

Sorry numb-nuts the short middle is taken by the MLB. The opening is past the MLB, that is the deep middle when he drops 10 yards of the LoS. The safties drop back and toward the sideline, usually around the numbers. That leaves a huge gap from 15 yards+ in the middle. One that a athletic TE can torch on a seam route for instance. And anytime your throwing the ball more than 15 yards down the filed, it's not really considered a "short" pass". The Bears are lucky and have a MLB that has exceptional range and can actually get deeper than that, so he tends to cause problems with some of the shorter routes, and why Indy was dumping the ball to Adai alot. However the the big "U" shaped hole in the middle/deep middle is the weak point. Dont think so, look at how wide open any quick TE will be on a seam route. You wont have a guy within 5 yards of him.

[RedlightG20]

not only do many of you guys read articles and perhaps religiously watch sean salisbury's worthless play breakdowns on sportscenter, but it seems Madden '07 has taught many of you about the game. :doh:

there are many slight variations of the cover 2 in the pros which can change the way the offense looks at the field. the cover 2 isn't the same f*ing defensive play every time, if it was, then what many of you are talking about would be valid and work 100% of the time on the field. obviously that's not the case. its an every-so-slightly adaptive defensive scheme that molds itself to what the offense is doing with their shifts and signals at the LOS. a different package and formation on offense changes the defense. c'mon.

[Om]

not only do many of you guys read articles and perhaps religiously watch sean salisbury's worthless play breakdowns on sportscenter, but it seems Madden '07 has taught many of you about the game. :doh:

Ah. Another professor chimes in.

Pray tell, what can YOU teach us today?

[RedlightG20]

edited earlier post.

[Morneblade]

I think the last time I played Madden was in like 93 or something. Oh, I dont bother with Fantasy Football either. I normally have better things to do.

[Cyber Pimp]

Do you want to get into a pissing contest about who played more football or do you want to look at the facts here?

The facts are:

A: Mark Brunell is either incapable of throwing the deep ball with any accuracy or he is scared to.

B: The Cover 2 is not a foolproof defense.

The Chicago Bears played the Cover 2 throughout Super Bowl 41 and guess what? The Colts brought home the Lombardi trophy. Yes, both of their running backs racked up big time rushing yards in that game, but their QB also racked up big time passing yards.

The Cover 2 leaves holes underneath and even if every team we played while Brunell was our QB ran the Cover 2 all game, Mark Brunell still couldn't find the holes (insert joke here) and wasn't a threat throwing the ball downfield either. But that wasn't the case.

Teams did not play more Cover 2 against us in the beginning of the season than they played with extra guys up front. Because they easily shutdown our painfully predictible draw play, reverse, or Mark's screen passes behind the line of scrimmage.

If the Cover 2 were the answer to stopping every passing-oriented offense in the NFL, teams like The Colts, Bengals, and Patriots would have no success through the air at all.

And even if teams played nothing but the Cover 2 against Brunell:rolleyes: (notice the sarcasm here) then why is he not a good enough QB to pick apart the holes and find receivers underneath?

Could that be why Campbell was inserted against Tampa Bay?

Thank you very much. You just stated what I been saying. I made it bold for you. The RB's moved the ball well and which open them up for the deep balls. I'm glad you are gaining football knowledge. You will be ready for Football 102 shortly son.

[Morneblade]

not only do many of you guys read articles and perhaps religiously watch sean salisbury's worthless play breakdowns on sportscenter, but it seems Madden '07 has taught many of you about the game. :doh:

there are many slight variations of the cover 2 in the pros which can change the way the offense looks at the field. the cover 2 isn't the same f*ing defensive play every time, if it was, then what many of you are talking about would be valid and work 100% of the time on the field. obviously that's not the case. its an every-so-slightly adaptive defensive scheme that molds itself to what the offense is doing with their shifts and signals at the LOS. a different package and formation on offense changes the defense. c'mon.

No kidding. However you have a hole in the intermediate/deep middle. You can give different looks to confuse the QB or roll coverage to whatever. That wasnt the point of contention.

[Om]

Any chance you Football Theory experts will be doing a Applied Theory class any time soon? You know, dealing with things like applying the basics of the Cover 2 (don't get me wrong, the class so far has been VERY informative and I and my fellow classmates do surely appreciate it) within the context of actual games, with actual players possessing differing skill sets, with actual game situations and that kind of thing?

Just trying to schedule my week so any info on what room and at what time that lecture series will be held would be helpful.

[Cyber Pimp]

Sorry numb-nuts the short middle is taken by the MLB. The opening is past the MLB, that is the deep middle when he drops 10 yards of the LoS. The safties drop back and toward the sideline, usually around the numbers. That leaves a huge gap from 15 yards+ in the middle. One that a athletic TE can torch on a seam route for instance. And anytime your throwing the ball more than 15 yards down the filed, it's not really considered a "short" pass". The Bears are lucky and have a MLB that has exceptional range and can actually get deeper than that, so he tends to cause problems with some of the shorter routes, and why Indy was dumping the ball to Adai alot. However the the big "U" shaped hole in the middle/deep middle is the weak point. Dont think so, look at how wide open any quick TE will be on a seam route. You wont have a guy within 5 yards of him.

Do you consider 10-15 yards a deep pass? I said that the hole will be between the mlb and the safties. If the oline doesn't protect the qb long enough so the WR's to be able to split the safties then you have to throw the slant to the TE or a dump off pass. You seen how indy played the cover two. Rhodes and Adai ran the ball well. Manning threw short passes to them as well. If you cant establish a running game or complete short passes to the RB's nad TE's then you cant throw deep down field. I would tell you why my nuts are numb but you might get mad at your girlfriend :laugh:

[Morneblade]

Do you consider 10-15 yards a deep pass? I said that the hole will be between the mlb and the safties. If the oline doesn't protect the qb long enough so the WR's to be able to split the safties then you have to throw the slant to the TE or a dump off pass. You seen how indy played the cover two. Rhodes and Adai ran the ball well. Manning threw short passes to them as well. If you cant establish a running game or complete short passes to the RB's nad TE's then you cant throw deep down field. I would tell you why my nuts are numb but you might get mad at your girlfriend :laugh:

Wow, that was almost witty. Guess you didnt like the kick in the groin when you tired to grab her ass.

And most teams consider anyting over 15 yeards to be "deep".