Black Head Coaches: Does todays wins help for future candidates in the NFL & college?

[pjfootballer]

Okay, I'll bite and ask you this question... How many Hispanics and Asians are playing football?

Well, people who are fighting for the Rooney Rule in here stated we shouldn't go by population. I mean if the rule is meant for minorities it should be for all minorities.

[pointyfootball]

More importantly...will Goldie Hawn ever be given another shot?

[Vilandil Tasardur]

As for the other races, I completely agree with PJ. There are plenty of Hispanics and Asians playing football. A HOF Hispanic player retired last week, to almost no media fanfare in comparison to Ray Lewis. Believe it or not, a Hispanic QB was the first minority QB to win the superbowl, and was also named MVP. How many of you even knew Jum Plunkett was Mexican American? He won the superbowl and MVP a couple years before our own Doug did, to much larger media hoopla. And while "Asians" we Americans tend to stereotype them are uncommon in the NFL, Pacific Islanders are extraordinarily over represented in comparison to their actual, continental USA numbers. Yet I can't name a single Samoan coach/assistant.

As to the actual subject, I think the Rooney rule is deplorably insulting and despicable. As a Mexican American myself, I would HATE to have to wonder why I was called in for an interview. I would hate to interview knowing I had no shot at the job. The entire notion that I need a white man's help to make it makes me sick. If I'm qualified, hire me, and if I'm not, don't waste either of our time.

If you REALLY want to increase the number of minority coaches and candidates, then the NFL should follow something more like this. My theory is that there are plenty of minority coaches at the high school, D3 and D2 levels of the NCAA. They just, for whatever reason, rarely break into the top schools in the nation. I think the NFL should hire an older, slightly washed out former NFL coach who still has the drive to do something, but maybe just not coach. The NFL should snatch up someone like Brian Billick, Tony Dungy, Art Shell, Mike Sherman, Mike Tice and other guys like that who have a substantial amount of pro coaching experience without a great deal of success. Guys who have been there, done the job, but didn't do enough to keep their jobs or stay relevant in the league. Take these guys and pay them to establish coaching clinics. Set up 5-10 schools across the country where high school and lower division college coaches can come and take classes. Give them REAL, first hand instruction from the guys who have been there and done it. Then, when they're applying for the big positions at the big time schools, they have the resume boost.

Imagine the coach at the local D2 college applying for an offensive coordinator position at a nearby state university. Currently, ALL he has going for him are the latest offensive statistics at his D2 school and a couple endorsements from colleagues. Now imagine that he can add to his resume classes at one of the NFL's coaching clinics. Imagine he can walk into an interview and say "I studied the west coast offense for 6 weeks under Jon Gruden" or I took a four week seminar on zone blocking by Mike Tice. THAT'S how you're going to increase minority coaches. By changing the way they can learn the game, at the lower levels.

[TheLongshot]

You know what.....My bad guys. That was it was. A special teams coordinator. Not sure why I interpreted that as an equipment assistant, but my assessment is the same. And its pretty damn close. The fact that they interviewed a totally unqualified black candidate is completely ridiculous. Whether its a special teams coordinator, or building security

I guess in your eyes one of the guys coaching in the Super Bowl is unqualified. John Harbaugh spent most of his career with the Eagles coaching special teams. He was never an OC or DC.

On another note. Does anyone know the story of Mike Tomlin? Was he a product of the Rooney Rule?

According to Rooney himself, no. He claims he interviewed a minority candidate before Tomlin.

[KCClybun]

Well, people who are fighting for the Rooney Rule in here stated we shouldn't go by population. I mean if the rule is meant for minorities it should be for all minorities.

The Rooney Rule IS intended for all minorities.

The reason it's stupid base to say that minority coaching hires mesh with the minority population numbers is because it conveniently ignores and glosses over the fact that there are numerous people of color on any given coaching staff, and therefore numerous people of color in the NFL alone, much less assistants on the college level. So how many minorities there are in the entire country shouldn't matter as much as "how many minorities candidates have the football knowledge required to be a coach"? You'd probably get a number a whole lot higher than 12%.

Based on the number of minority assistants in the NFL alone, the whole "well it matches the minority population" thing doesn't make any sense. The entire minority population isn't qualified to be a head coach in the NFL.

It's a copout response to a larger problem.

[KingGibbs]

They need to be down with the cause. Damn cornball coaches.

[Yeen80]

I guess in your eyes one of the guys coaching in the Super Bowl is unqualified. John Harbaugh spent most of his career with the Eagles coaching special teams. He was never an OC or DC.

According to Rooney himself, no. He claims he interviewed a minority candidate before Tomlin.

Harbaugh also spent time as a DB coach with the Eagles.

[Boss_Hogg]

I would take Lovie Smith over the Walrus any day. I have no idea why the NFL has this infatuation with Andy Reid. He may be a good QB coach...but head coach? No way.

[Laron Burgundy]

The Rooney Rule IS intended for all minorities.

The reason it's stupid base to say that minority coaching hires mesh with the minority population numbers is because it conveniently ignores and glosses over the fact that there are numerous people of color on any given coaching staff, and therefore numerous people of color in the NFL alone, much less assistants on the college level. So how many minorities there are in the entire country shouldn't matter as much as "how many minorities candidates have the football knowledge required to be a coach"? You'd probably get a number a whole lot higher than 12%.

Based on the number of minority assistants in the NFL alone, the whole "well it matches the minority population" thing doesn't make any sense. The entire minority population isn't qualified to be a head coach in the NFL.

It's a copout response to a larger problem.

Are position coaches qualified to become nfl head coaches? Certainly there are some who make the jump, but from your statement "the entire minority population isn't qualified to be a head coach" could be countered by "the vast majority of position coaches are not qualified to become nfl head coaches." Generally there is a progression. But then you say that blacks are stuck to position coaches because they don't get promoted. 33% of our coaching staff is black. We agree that head coaches have control of their coordinators, correct? So it would seem black head coaches would, if anything, prefer black coordinators or at LEAST have them around the league average for position coaches, correct? Of the 3 black head coaches, there is only 1 black coordinator on their team out of 9, right around 11%, not far off from the percent of head coaches who are black.

Again, your argument is completely based on the expectation that there should be more black head coaches than the population suggests. Not just total US demographics, but coordinator demographics.

And I ask, why are head coaching jobs so important? I'm going on averages, but on average about 10% of a team makes more money than their head coach, 65% of the nfl is black, and the nfl has 1700 players. Do the math and that is 110 black players who make more money than ANY of the 28 white head coaches. From purely a money point of view, black people are coming out FAR ahead of whites. Why is there no affirmative action on football rosters!? Can't I decry that there is racism against white athletes?! Do you see how preposterous that sounds? What you're asking for is that there should be a higher percent of black head coaches than what even black head coaches have for their coordinators. That is the ESSENCE of prejudice, to give a race undue benefit due to their color and not their ability.

And finally, at the end of 2010, if I remember correctly, a whopping 25% of head coaches were black. Are you implying that the nfl has become MORE racist over the past two years simply due to black coaches getting fired for, mostly, underperforming? It's the natural ebb and flow of coaching hires, of course the population percents will change, but I think it's absolutely preposterous to call any of this racism. It's just completely unfounded, illogical whining.

I would take Lovie Smith over the Walrus any day. I have no idea why the NFL has this infatuation with Andy Reid. He may be a good QB coach...but head coach? No way.

I agree with you on Lovie Smith, Chicago was dumb for letting him go. I'm positive his career as a head coach isn't over.

[KCClybun]

Again, your argument is completely based on the expectation that there should be more black head coaches than the population suggests. Not just total US demographics, but coordinator demographics.

And I ask, why are head coaching jobs so important? I'm going on averages, but on average about 10% of a team makes more money than their head coach, 65% of the nfl is black, and the nfl has 1700 players. Do the math and that is 110 black players who make more money than ANY of the 28 white head coaches. From purely a money point of view, black people are coming out FAR ahead of whites. Why is there no affirmative action on football rosters!? Can't I decry that there is racism against white athletes?! Do you see how preposterous that sounds? What you're asking for is that there should be a higher percent of black head coaches than what even black head coaches have for their coordinators. That is the ESSENCE of prejudice, to give a race undue benefit due to their color and not their ability.

And finally, at the end of 2010, if I remember correctly, a whopping 25% of head coaches were black. Are you implying that the nfl has become MORE racist over the past two years simply due to black coaches getting fired for, mostly, underperforming? It's the natural ebb and flow of coaching hires, of course the population percents will change, but I think it's absolutely preposterous to call any of this racism. It's just completely unfounded, illogical whining.

First off, stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was racist. In fact I said that I don't think any of these owners are intentionally not hiring minority head coaches. I don't think owners are going out of their way to not hire minority head coaches. What I feel is that they're not malicious in their intent. They simply just don't think a whole lot about hiring minority head coaches. They only have to interview one, so they just interview one. Every few years there's a list of hot head coaches candidates, and then some interesting coordinator candidates. Those are pretty much the only guys that get a shot. I'll take it a step further and say that's not just a problem with minority coaching candidates, but just with head coach candidates in general.

It's just hard to understand how a team like Philadelphia, who seemed to sort of struggle to hire a head coach; interviewed that many people...and only interviewed Lovie Smith. Right here we have an example of a team needing to do it's due dilligence, and really not being able to afford making the wrong hire, and they interviewed that many people, and the only minority they interviewed was Lovie Smith? In fact, in a lot of this head coaching searches, Lovie Smith was the only got that got interviewed. If it wasn't Lovie, it was usually someone in house. 12 head coaching vacancies, a couple dozen real possible candidates, and Lovie's the only minority most of them interviewed, if they didn't only interview one guy in house?

Doug Marrone got hired in Buffalo because he sort of halfway turned around Syracuse. He had a 25-25 record. He ran a fast pace offense that was the 25th ranked offense in the nation in 2012, the 101st in 2011, the 89th in 2012, won two bowl games in four years. He was okay. Yet he was a relatively hot (or at least very warm) head coaching candidate.

Kevin Sumlin has basically gotten no NFL head coaching buzz. He's 81-36. He's one three bowl games, including a big time one in the Cotton Bowl. He had the third rated offense in the nation this year, the first rated offense in 2011, 23rd in 2010. How many coaching interviews did he get?

Bueller? Bueller?

Oh, that's right. None. Not even so much as peep in terms of buzz.

It's not whining, and it's not illogical. I'm not crying racism, I'm not suggesting a Million Man March on NFL headquarters, I'm not calling Rev. Al Sharpton. I'm saying that if owners only have to interview one minority candidate, then they'll only interview one. It's not because they hate black people or because they're racist. It's just because they just won't. It won't cross their mind unless they have to. It's got more to do with familiarity with a certain kind of coach than it has to do with outright racism.

And I ask, why are head coaching jobs so important? I'm going on averages, but on average about 10% of a team makes more money than their head coach, 65% of the nfl is black, and the nfl has 1700 players. Do the math and that is 110 black players who make more money than ANY of the 28 white head coaches. From purely a money point of view, black people are coming out FAR ahead of whites.

Why are head coaching jobs so important? Are you serious? It is the goal of pretty much every assistant coach to get the opportunity to be a head coach. Few people coach with no intention of ever becoming the head guy, whether they make as much money as the players do or not. This is a classic strawman argument; it's false equivolancy. We're not comparing player salaries to coaching salaries. We're asking the question why their aren't more minority head coaches, and why out of 12 coaching vacancies not one was filled by a person of color, and why there were so few candidates interviewed in the first place.

The only answer anyone has come up with is that the Rooney Rule sucks and that the world has suddenly changed and that suddenly owners aren't the *******s who orchestrated the lockout, or the same guys who screwed us out of our cap space, but benevolent leaders who would never overlook someone because of their race because there's too much money on the line and they're too concerned with winning. And that roughly based off population numbers, the number of minority coaches is fine.

And by the way, you keep talking about black people, and I'm talking about minorities in general.

[zoony]

Where are the Samoan coaches? Samoans have the highest percentage of their population in the NFL by a mile.

One could, with comfort, say that Samoans are genetically predisposed to being greater football players than any other race of people on earth.

No coaches though. Must be institutional discrimination.

[Laron Burgundy]

First off, stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was racist. In fact I said that I don't think any of these owners are intentionally not hiring minority head coaches. I don't think owners are going out of their way to not hire minority head coaches. What I feel is that they're not malicious in their intent. They simply just don't think a whole lot about hiring minority head coaches. They only have to interview one, so they just interview one. Every few years there's a list of hot head coaches candidates, and then some interesting coordinator candidates. Those are pretty much the only guys that get a shot. I'll take it a step further and say that's not just a problem with minority coaching candidates, but just with head coach candidates in general.

You've got to be kidding me. Sumlin has one year as a head coach of a major program. He inherited a damn good team recruited by Sherman. At houston he took over another program that he inherited from Art Briles. Certainly he's shown promise, but don't even compare him to the other coaches who got jobs. Yes, Marrone was 25-25 at Syracuse, do you think his work in Syracuse got him the job? Nah, it was probably when he was OC of the Saints from 2006-2008 when he molded the 20th ranked offense the year before into an offense that was 1st in 2 years and 4th in another. Other than that Marrone spent 6 years in the nfl. If Sumlin keeps it up, expect some buzz, but 1 year at a major program and no nfl coaching experience? Give me a break. I really hope he's not your best example.

But now your argument has taken a turn. It's not racism, owners are just thoughtless? They'll only interview one minority candidate if they have to, otherwise they wouldn't? That sounds like racism to me, unless, of course, the case is that the coaches they are interested in are the ones most qualified, and that doesn't, to them, include a minority. Could it be that because, likely, 80-90% of qualified applicants are white, and that if they only interview 7 or 8 people, that it makes sense for most of those interviewed to be white? Name some other great minority coordinators and college coaches who are likely head coach candidates. Let's put it this way, the Rooney rule never stopped a team from being prejudiced against minorities. They don't at all have to consider that interview.

Why are head coaching jobs so important? Are you serious? It is the goal of pretty much every assistant coach to get the opportunity to be a head coach. Few people coach with no intention of ever becoming the head guy, whether they make as much money as the players do or not. This is a classic strawman argument; it's false equivolancy. We're not comparing player salaries to coaching salaries. We're asking the question why their aren't more minority head coaches, and why out of 12 coaching vacancies not one was filled by a person of color, and why there were so few candidates interviewed in the first place.

The only answer anyone has come up with is that the Rooney Rule sucks and that the world has suddenly changed and that suddenly owners aren't the *******s who orchestrated the lockout, or the same guys who screwed us out of our cap space, but benevolent leaders who would never overlook someone because of their race because there's too much money on the line and they're too concerned with winning. And that roughly based off population numbers, the number of minority coaches is fine.

And by the way, you keep talking about black people, and I'm talking about minorities in general.

Why stop at just male minorities? I don't see any female head coaches! Thread title was black head coaches, and most of this hoopla is about precisely that. Other minorities are almost completely ignored.

As to every assistant coach trying to become a head coach, do you honestly think most strength and conditioning coaches imagine themselves as a head coach? That's like saying almost all restaurant managers aspire to become a CEO. Many people are happy with a certain amount of success. Again, if this were some type of neglect wouldn't minority head coaches, perhaps, employ minority coordinators at a higher rate than those thoughtless white owners hire black head coaches? Answer that. If you don't answer anything else, answer that.

Ranting about owners orchestrating a lockout (to gain leverage for increased profit to them) and applying a cap penalty (again, profit) and then saying they wouldn't always go for the head coach they view as most capable (a loss of profit with a bad head coach) is just completely separate logic. Playing a broader "they're evil" card over a more specific "they're greedy" argument.

Why I bring up players is simple. 65-70% of nfl players are minorities. Why is that? Is it because they are the most qualified to have that job, or is it because the nfl is racist against white players? Now, if we expand this to head coaches instead of just players, I think you see my point. You can NOT argue for a higher representation in coaches and then conveniently breeze over the racial disproportion of players. Can it not be that of those 12 coaching vacancies, the best fit for all of them happened to be white men? Or is that impossible?

I love that part about the only answer to why there aren't more minority head coaches is that based off coordinator populations they are roughly equivalent. When you have the right answer, you don't need to give more. Silly argument.

[KCClybun]

I love that part about the only answer to why there aren't more minority head coaches is that based off coordinator populations they are roughly equivalent. When you have the right answer, you don't need to give more. Silly argument.

Oh, you for sure have the right answer.

I'd call you arrogant but instead I'll just call you ignorant since the former denotes superiority and the latter denotes stupidity.

[skinzwiz]

I'm surprised Lovie Smith wasn't hired yet.

[zoony]

Oh, you for sure have the right answer.

I'd call you arrogant but instead I'll just call you ignorant since the former denotes superiority and the latter denotes stupidity.

Really no need to go there. It was a good back and forth you all had going

[Boss_Hogg]

Where are the Samoan coaches? Samoans have the highest percentage of their population in the NFL by a mile.

One could, with comfort, say that Samoans are genetically predisposed to being greater football players than any other race of people on earth.

No coaches though. Must be institutional discrimination.

It'll happen in due time. Im sure the next generation of coaches will include a person of Samoan/Tongan decent. Afterall the Samoan explosion in the NFL is still young. Not many Samoans were around in the 80s and 90s.

[Laron Burgundy]

Oh, you for sure have the right answer.

I'd call you arrogant but instead I'll just call you ignorant since the former denotes superiority and the latter denotes stupidity.

Haha, come on. You're resorting to insults instead of attacking any of the reasons I gave! I could understand if my arguments were emotional, and certainly it's an emotional issue, but I bring just solid, hard facts. I call it whining because whining is complaining in a childish fashion, as per the dictionary, and that is exactly what this is. There is no basis for this complaint, it's irrational.

Look, there are a lot of injustices in this world, and a lot perpetrated against minorities. Look at CEO's of fortune 500 companies, only 1.2% are black. THAT is a disproportionate amount, especially given a sample size of 500 positions. 9.4% in a sample size of 32? Especially because it was 25% just 2 years ago. That's WELL within statistically expected ranges.

You blatantly said you don't think this is racism, which is the whole crux of why this would be a problem. If it isn't racism, that the owners aren't prejudiced against minorities, then they are going after who they deem to be the most qualified applicant. 19 of the 32 franchises have had a minority coach. Considering that most of that has been in the past 20 years, we've seen an incredible amount of diversity. If this were 20 years ago, you would have an overwhelming argument and only an idiot would disagree with you, as it is the overwhelming evidence is against you.

Another sign of the progress, if we say every franchise has had, on average, 3 head coaches since 2003 (when the rooney rule was instituted), you're looking at 17 minority coaches in the past 96 head coaching jobs. 17.7%. Even at 4 head coaches per 9 years you are looking at 13.3%. I ask you, what number is sufficient for you that it is no longer a problem? Do you have an appropriate, logical number, or are you not satisfied until it FEELS right?

12 head coaching hires is a blip on the radar. If you rolled a dice 12 times, and it never landed on 6, you might think that was odd, but surely you don't complain about weighted die. That is what this current round of hires amounts to. Sensationalist sports media, and in turn viewers, have jumped on to this as an issue without actually having any idea what they are talking about. It doesn't FEEL right to them, but they don't have facts, only feelings.

For where we're at right now, the numbers point to us being in the right ballpark. Until you offer concrete numbers that say differently, all you're doing is going by your emotions.

[MR2Drift]

Racism is still an issue in NFL but not in the way many people realize. The simple fact is that the NFL or the NCAA might not have discriminatory practices today, it doesn't mean we aren't still seeing the effects of the past on todays game.. Quite a few of these head coaches are in their 50s and 60s. Which means that they started coaching in the 70s or 80s which was a very different landscape for players and coaches than today. It was much easier for a white guy to get a job as a position coach back then compared to a black guy. Same way it was much easier for a white guy to be a QB, which also explains the lack of black offensive coordinators today. These players/coaches of the past are benefiting from past racial prejudice for their succes today. Add that to the fact that coaching has always been a part of the boys club it makes things even more difficult for coaches of today because they are competing with bonds that were formed a long time ago. Which is readily apparent with so many coaches giving their kids jobs. While we can say that the NFL is in a good place today, it will probably take much longer to see the results that matter to people.

While I don't hate the Rooney rule, like most things the intentions are good but implementation is poor. I think it would of been of better use for lower level positions like position coaches. Instead of competing for 32 spots with guys who have already have much more established records, you will compete with lesser qualified guys for 200 something jobs. This way you have a much better chance of getting your foot in the door and have a chance to climb the ladder. Also the public won't make a big deal about it because no one really cares about position coaches.

[justice98]

I dont know about you guys, but the Rooney Rule is comedy as its best.

Chiefs interviewed a black equipment assistant (or groundskeeper) to satisfy the rule only to hire Andy Reid a day later. Its more of an insult than it is fair play.

They interviewed the Falcons special teams coach before hiring Andy Reid. Not that they didn't interview this person you speak of, but they definitely interviewed an actual football coach at some point.

---------- Post added January-28th-2013 at 09:00 AM ----------

It'll happen in due time. Im sure the next generation of coaches will include a person of Samoan/Tongan decent. Afterall the Samoan explosion in the NFL is still young. Not many Samoans were around in the 80s and 90s.

There's still not a lot of Samoans in the NFL. Something like less than 2% of the NFL. They've still got a long way to go.

[HeluCopter29]

Racism is still an issue in NFL but not in the way many people realize. The simple fact is that the NFL or the NCAA might not have discriminatory practices today, it doesn't mean we aren't still seeing the effects of the past on todays game.

Completely nailed it.

But that doesn't mean we're somehow excused from trying to right a wrong. If we don't work to bring everyone on a level playing field, it's just not gonna happen.

This type of stuff is gonna take a certain amount of time passing and generations changing, no doubt. But there's also things we can do in the now to expedite it a little.

[Boss_Hogg]

There's still not a lot of Samoans in the NFL. Something like less than 2% of the NFL. They've still got a long way to go.

True, but isn't this stat cool?

"With only 65,000 people living in American Samoa today, it has been said that a Samoan boy is forty times more likely to reach the NFL than a boy born in the United States."

http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2002/0527/1387562.html