Chinese Missile Destroys Satellite, 530 miles above Earth

[NattyLight]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=GBMJXOM5SCYLNQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/19/wchina19.xml

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The prospect of "Star Wars" between China and the West loomed last night after Beijing used a ballistic missile to destroy a satellite in space.

The missile, which hit a 4ft-wide obsolete Chinese weather satellite 530 miles above the Earth, is thought to have been launched from the Xichang space centre in -China's Sichuan province.

It suggests that the Chinese have developed a major new capability that underscores the communist regime's desire to use its military might as well as burgeoning economic power to expand its influence.

"The US believes China's development and testing of such weapons is inconsistent with the spirit of co-operation that both countries aspire to in the civil space area," said Gordon Johndroe, spokes-man for the US National Security Council, yesterday. "We and other countries have expressed our concern regarding this action to the Chinese."

It is understood that Australia and Canada have also protested to China.

The ability to destroy satellites with such precision could undermine the US National Missile Defence programme, a network of rocket interceptors, computers and satellites intended to protect America and its key allies from nuclear attack. It became known as "Son of Star Wars" after President Ronald Reagan's so-called "Star Wars" programme proposed in the 1980s.

The test heightens tensions between Washington and Beijing, which increasingly see one another as long-term strategic rivals in the Pacific. China's navy is undergoing massive expansion that could threaten the independence of its neighbour Taiwan, which is backed by the US.

Taiwan was particularly alarmed at yesterday's announcement because it relies on satellites to monitor cruise missiles pointed towards it from the Chinese mainland.

China is seeking to challenge American military strength in the Far East, including its vital trade routes in the South China Sea and Straits of Malacca.

Short- and medium-range ballistic missiles have been developed with the potential to take on American aircraft carriers.

There has also been investment in new nuclear submarines. The People's Liberation Army Navy has launched as many as 60 ships in the past five years and last March announced that it would build an aircraft carrier.

Chinese military spending more than doubled between 1997 and 2003 and is now estimated to be second only to the US as a percentage of GDP.

One study last year projected that China's annual military budget would be $185 billion by 2025.

Chinese links to Iran are also causing serious concern in Washington. Last month, Beijing signed a $16 billion contract with Teheran to purchase natural gas and develop oil fields.

China and Russia have repeatedly refused to back sanctions against Iran over its controversial nuclear power programme, which America believes could be used to build a nuclear bomb.

Robert Hewson, a missiles expert with Jane's, the weapons analysts, said yesterday: "The indications are that the system the Chinese used was a KT-2 ground-launched rocket.

"At its first showing in 2002 it was billed as a commercial launch system but anyone with knowledge could tell that it was a tailor-made anti--satellite weapon.

"I was at the showing and it raised a lot of eyebrows. After the show it disappeared. Then this happens."

According to Aviation Week, US Air Force radars detected "signs of orbital distress" after the destruction of the satellite last Thursday, which is likely to result in pieces of debris showering the earth.

The test shows that the Chinese could soon have the capability to destroy the array of commercial satellites operated by the US, Europe, Israel, Russia and Japan.

Testifying before Congress last week, Lt Gen Michael Maples, head of the US Defence Intelligence Agency, warned that "Russia and China continue to be the primary states of concern regarding military space and counter-space programmes".

Other countries, he said, "continue to develop capabilities that have the potential to threaten US space assets, and some have already deployed systems with inherent anti-satellite capabilities, such as satellite-tracking laser range-finding devices and nuclear-armed ballistic missiles".

Beijing and Moscow have both denied seeking space weapons and have called for an international ban on "weaponising space".

In 2004, the US Air Force established the 76th Space Control Squadron, which is capable of using ground-operated electronic jamming devices and missiles to disable foreign satellites.

Last year, the Bush administration unveiled the first new National Space Policy in 10 years.

Robert Joseph, under--secretary for arms control and international security at the State Department, said at the time: "The policy is designed to ensure that our space capabilities are protected in a time of increasing challenges and threats.

"This is imperative because space capabilities are vital to our national security and economic wellbeing."

A Foreign Office spokesman said last night that the Government had raised the issue with China and was asking why the test had been carried out.

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Whoa, dude.

[NattyLight]

I'll have to bump this for Sarge tomorrow, but we can pretend he was here.

"Well, it looks like it's time to Nuke China"

Just kidding Sarge, please don't hunt me down and slaughter me.

Seriously though, this concept is very intriguing. The US wished to develop a space defense system that could literally strike any target on Earth in a matter of hours. I guess being the most powerful country in the world saw it fit to assume the role of God, and raindown fire and brimstone onto the "sinners" of the earth as required.

Looks like China may have a solid solution to counter this capability.

Discuss, and of course, panic.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

.

Seriously though, this concept is very intriguing. The US wished to develop a space defense system that could literally strike any target on Earth in a matter of hours. I guess being the most powerful country in the world saw it fit to assume the role of God, and raindown fire and brimstone onto the "sinners" of the earth as required.

The "defense system" you are speaking of would be an array of satellites that would DEFEND (go figure) us from an offensive missile strike. It isn't meant to rain down bible quotes on any country.

We are inherintly the SWAT Team of the world. And don't get me wrong, I am against the speed at which Bush went after Iraq. But things need to be done; and we as the leading nation in the evolution of human kind has to be a step ahead of the game. Many people hate cops just because they are cops, but without them there would be anarchy.

China has always been a country with a lot of numbers and not a lot of wins. Japan has always gone through China like crap through a goose. They are great at innovation, always have been, but this offensive weapon they've built is just posturing.

[NattyLight]

The "defense system" you are speaking of would be an array of satellites that would DEFEND (go figure) us from an offensive missile strike. It isn't meant to rain down bible quotes on any country.

Where does our "defense" money go present day? Defense is offense and you know it.

Yeah, we're spending 100mil a pop on F-22's, 2bil a pop on B-2's, 75mil a pop on the F-35, 1mil a pop per Patriot missile....for what? To "defend" ourself from a dude with a $500 bomb on his chest that isn't a afraid to die?

No sir, we're spending it so we can **** up real threats proper like.

EDIT

Iraq? A threat? Come on, Iraq is test and evaluation.

We only have one true threat.

[DjTj]

China has always been a country with a lot of numbers and not a lot of wins. Japan has always gone through China like crap through a goose. They are great at innovation, always have been, but this offensive weapon they've built is just posturing.

I don't know about this crap through a goose business, but Japan did pretty much run through northern China at the end of the nineteenth century and again during World War II ... China was never conquered in either of those wars though - a feat accomplished only once in three thousand years of history by Ghengis Khan. Unlike, say, France or Poland, China was still standing and fighting when the Americans defeated the Japanese to end the war.

While they don't have much offensive game, China has played plenty of defense in its day. I doubt they'll ever be trying to take over Korea or Japan or any of their neighbors, but there is this little island called Taiwan they've had their eyes on for a while.

You're right that this missile thing is just posturing though - just trying to be a little thorn in our backside.

[dreamingwolf]

what scares me more than what the chinese accomplished, is how our own people are giddy about it.

[Coach Williams]

Everyone knows what I think about the china war theory so I'm gonna go back to the stadium..........

After some more reading I also have a theory about how the US will start rebelling at the UN meetings.......that is after this war though......I may not even be around......

[Spaceman Spiff]

Everyone knows what I think about the china war theory so I'm gonna go back to the stadium..........

Hey, stick around here. Looks like the Chinese are starting to throw bombs downfield and get vertical. Maybe Gibbs can take a few cues from them.

[NattyLight]

Everyone knows what I think about the china war theory so I'm gonna go back to the stadium..........

After some more reading I also have a theory about how the US will start rebelling at the UN meetings.......that is after this war though......I may not even be around......

Let me guess, a sleeping army of 200million. Am I in the ball park?

what scares me more than what the chinese accomplished, is how our own people are giddy about it.

Sir Dreamingwolf, I'm not "giddy".

I'm trying to open ****ing eyes that our country is pawning off 3rd world countries as a legitimate threat to the United States...they are nothing. Technology and information wins wars today, we have both, our "threats" have zero in comparison.

The Chinese do, AND something we lack...patience.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Let me guess, a sleeping army of 200million. Am I in the ball park?

Sir Dreamingwolf, I'm not "giddy".

I'm trying to open ****ing eyes that our country is pawning off 3rd world countries as a legitimate threat to the United States...they are nothing. Technology and information wins wars today, we have both, our "threats" have zero in comparison.

The Chinese do, AND something we lack...patience.

Technology is expensive. Like you said, terrorists wear $500 bombs. They use that bomb to blow up two humvees, that's 12 trained soldiers and $1 million in equipment...gone. Going in to a country and killing their people 20:1 may be domination...but guess which country is going to lose the trained soldiers and expensive equipment? Us.

If we went to war with China, we'd have to expect terrible loss of life. The economic hit on the world as we know it could send us back to the stone age. With all the funding we'd have to put in to the war, we'd be sitting ducks for other countries to attack us. If there IS a world war III, it could very well be an amazingly terrible event.

[Sarge]

Thank you Bill Klinton

[Larry]

Thank you Bill Klinton

Now that's the Sarge I know.

Nice to see "It's Clinton's Fault" is still the first page in the playbook.

[endzone_dave]

I'm sure I don't see the whole picture but why not let them have Taiwan? Is it really worth World War III? A war between us and China would be incredibly destructive and life as we know it would change forever. I say let them have that little piece of land.

[Thanos]

I thought China was changing tis focus to space anyway.Man on the moon in a few years ,followed by a lunarbase.

Welcome to Space Race2 and the US will definately come in second place with our misplaced priorities .ie education dollars.

[Zguy28]

China would never harm the US now. It would be economic suicide.

[Zguy28]

If there IS a world war III, it could very well be an amazingly terrible event.

Are you kidding? We're already in WWIII. The war on Terror (not Iraq) is global.

[Air Force Cane]

Some of us have been focused on the threat from communist Red China for awhile now- and were called hysterics or baiters.

Guys like Nattylight- who from his posts obviously sides with our enemies. Who says things like the US wants to rule like g-d over everyone else- and now the time for payback is coming other than someone who WANTS to see the US harmed?!!

[Zguy28]

Some of us have been focused on the threat from communist Red China for awhile now- and were called hysterics or baiters.

Guys like Nattylight- who from his posts obviously sides with our enemies. Who says things like the US wants to rule like g-d over everyone else- and now the time for payback is coming other than someone who WANTS to see the US harmed?!!

If that's what he says, I'm a little worried, since I believe he works at a Naval Air Station and if so, probably holds a security clearance.

[Sarge]

Now that's the Sarge I know.

Nice to see "It's Clinton's Fault" is still the first page in the playbook.

The fact is, the CHICOMS could barely fly a kite straight before Klinton, via Loral Space and the DNC. After he got done approving giving access to the CHICOMS, they suddenly, within a few years, could not only launch rockets straight, but launch rockets with MERV capability.

Again, thanks Bill

[Sarge]

China would never harm the US now. It would be economic suicide.

They have all the money. They make all the stuff. They hold a lot of our debt. Even if we quit buying rubber dog **** from them(obstensivly because we've been nuked by them) they'll still have all the money and make all the ****.

Nice position we've been put in by Bubba and George, huh?

[Destino]

Sarge it's not about who makes the **** - it's about finding someone to buy it. The relationship between buyer and seller is what makes it work, one without the other is just some poor fool wasting his time.

China and the US are massive economies and should they ever war with eachother both would suffer incredible economic damage (and drag the rest of the world down with them). That sort of war would bring about another great depression... assuming anyone remains alive enough to realize they don't have a job.

This is a good thing. Everybody on the planet stands to lose if the US and china ever go to war with eachother. That's as powerful a motivation to avoid such a war.

[NattyLight]

Guys like Nattylight- who from his posts obviously sides with our enemies. Who says things like the US wants to rule like g-d over everyone else- and now the time for payback is coming other than someone who WANTS to see the US harmed?!!

Here we go...side with our enemies. That's right I work where I work every day because I side with the enemies.

As a member of the air force I'm sure you're familiar with the target engagement range of the F-117 that carried out the strikes in Shock n Awe. And now the US wishes to eventually expand that effective range to infinity (anywhere on earth, from space).

It is an interesting parallel between biblical references of a vengeful god and how it's now translated to real world capabilities. That's it.

I digress.

This provides the Chinese with capability, if a conflict such as I don't know, the Straights of Taiwan were ever to unfold, to neutralize or severly degrade our SATCOM infrastructure and we would be effectively deaf, dumb, and blind in conflict. (very limited intel)

My ultimate point however, which seems to be missed, and is constantly REITERATED by intelligence specialists for YEARS, is that China is our biggest threat, dwarfing any other potential out there. Also, all Chinese people are spies.

[JMS]

Sarge it's not about who makes the **** - it's about finding someone to buy it. The relationship between buyer and seller is what makes it work, one without the other is just some poor fool wasting his time.

China and the US are massive economies and should they ever war with eachother both would suffer incredible economic damage (and drag the rest of the world down with them). That sort of war would bring about another great depression... assuming anyone remains alive enough to realize they don't have a job.

This is a good thing. Everybody on the planet stands to lose if the US and china ever go to war with eachother. That's as powerful a motivation to avoid such a war.

I think that's true... except for the "global depression part". I think we could waste China without to much fuss today militarily. Problem is the bombs going off would only be destroying buildings we and our allies paid for through investment. And like you said, if they drop a bomb on LA, they're just reducing the ability of America to pay them back all the money we owe them because of our massive trade imbalance.

It's really tommorrow when your statement develops your the full potential.

Tommorrow when hopefully the trade balance is more equal. Tommorrow when China has the largest economy in the world.. Say 20-40 years..

Oh Sarge,, As for Klinton arming the Chineese.. Let's not forget it was your man Bush who fast tracked them into the WTO. Your man Bush who presided over the explosion of the trade deficite. And your buddies the Israeli's who are modernizeing their airforce and military.

[Sarge]

Oh Sarge,, As for Klinton arming the Chineese.. Let's not forget it was your man Bush who fast tracked them into the WTO. Your man Bush who presided over the explosion of the trade deficite. And your buddies the Israeli's who are modernizeing their airforce and military.

I do believe I included George in my critisim. But to differentiate the two, Bush has not allowed state secrets and nuke tech to go to the CHICOMS. Klinton did.

[JMS]

I do believe I included George in my critisim. But to differentiate the two, Bush has not allowed state secrets and nuke tech to go to the CHICOMS. Klinton did.

Do you think there is much difference between the Republcians and the Democrates on trading with the Chinese? I don't really see it. Both parties are pretty much in the pocket of big business to the detriment of the American working man.

China's mility did benifit from Clinton allowing some high tech exports to go throudh on the premise of helping their "civilian" space program. It's also true that China stole nuclear warhead designs during the Clinton administration. But did that help the Chineese more than Bush giving them permanent Most Favored Nations status with no review from Congress? Or Bush allowing the Trade deficite to mushroom 1000x what it was under Clinton?.. excuse the pun...

As you say... there is much to critisize from both parties on how we've dealt with China if your of that mind. The over all motivation in our involvement with China is not based on the probablility conflict in the near future. It's based on making money and a premise that involvement makes conflict less likely in the not all that distant future.

Here are some of the arguments..

• China's going to become the largest economy in the near future and if we shut ourselves off from them we are only hurting ourselves as Europe did when America was the raising economic star in the late 1800's.
  
• If we trade with them, over the long run; we will reduce any military threat because our economies will become so linked any military attack by either party would be self defeating.. ( as Destino said )
  
• In the history of China over the last 500 years, say nothing of their communist history; they have not been expansionists. While they have gone after Tibet, Vietnam, and Taiwan; these lands they identify as part of historic China. Thus we identify China as a less imperial form of Comunism than Russia's. Not bent on world domination and worthy of a different tactic than the cold war.
  
• The civil unrest which exists today in china is only getting exasperated by the new diversity between the new class system springing up there. Thus our involvement is transforming China into a more capitalistic system economically which we hope will translate politically. During America's adolecents of the 1880's - 1960's labor in this country was energized creating a mixed market system out of a capitalistic system. If the same holds true for China, the raising middle class should exhort more political mussle as they grow and gain more economic strength.