illone Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Yes, it is not Brunell's fault that he faces 3rd and 8, just like it wouldn't be Jason Campbell's fault if he faced a 3rd and 8 because the line was penalized. I blame Brunell for what he does given that situation. I think Campbell would do a better job in that situation. He couldn't do any worse. And you speaking about Campbell in a thread titled Brunell is acceptable? Assuming Campbell would do better in that situation is speculative, but I know in your own mind it strengthens your argument so carry on:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Are you physically or mentally incapable of having a discussion about the QB position without first addressing the defense? I'm not. Obviously not considering you are the first person to mention defense in this thread:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I have no idea what any of the above nonsense is about. I never claimed that Brunell was ruining Campbell. Not even an APPARENTLY horrible JC can screw up a pass that travels 2 yards to Ladell Betts behind the line. Hopefully, if Brunell hasn't ruined him, Campbell will have the stones to take a shot down the field in such situations, as that is precisely what a 3rd and 7-9 warrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Just watch the damn film. No other team throws horizontally more than vertically. It's insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rdskn4Lyf21 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 As far as the offense is concerned, the only "stat" that matters is points per game.... we are averaging 20 per game and 18th in the league, so we are below average, and that HAS to improve, but that isn't the main issue.... The issue and more telling stat is on the other side of the ball: We are LAST in the league with takeaways at 5 (while our offense has the 4th least turnovers in the league at 6 - they have actually saved us from being 0-6 this year). The defense isn't taking the ball away and putting us in a better scoring position therefore causing us to put together longer drives than everyone else, hurting our scoring chances. The fault lies on the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 And you speaking about Campbell in a thread titled Brunell is acceptable? Assuming Campbell would do better in that situation is speculative, but I know in your own mind it strengthens your argument so carry on:laugh: Actually, I think his main argument was that Campbell couldn't do much worse on those 3rd down situations. 3rd and 8 and a dump off pass to betts for 3 yards. You really think Campbell couldn't do that? Hell, a decent high school QB could do that. But what Campbell can potentially bring (and yes that is speculation, I admit) is the threat of a deep passing game or at least an attempt at such a thing. We pretty much know Brunell can't or isn't getting that done, so what could the harm be in giving Campbell a shot? :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin Patrol Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 And you speaking about Campbell in a thread titled Brunell is acceptable? Assuming Campbell would do better in that situation is speculative, but I know in your own mind it strengthens your argument so carry on:laugh: In a thread titled The Brunell Stat of Doom I think it's pretty clear what the discussion is about: whether or not Brunell is a legitimate starter. Any discussion of Mark Brunell would necessitate a discussion of his backup, since if his backup is worse the discussion is largely moot. Fortunately, he is not. I am assuming that Campbell would do better given his productive history at Auburn and the fact that Joe Gibbs, who I place enormous faith in, spent two draft picks in getting this kid in the 1st round which, by many analysts opinion, was too early. Also I don't have to assume that under Mark Brunell, the Washington Redskins are 2-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin Patrol Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Obviously not considering you are the first person to mention defense in this thread:laugh: If your only contribution to this discussion is an endless bombardment of banalities and emoticons then get the fudge out. You're wasting the adult's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Taylor Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Ok, all thoose Brunell Supporters Here is the REAL stat of intrest to me. Mark Brunel avg Pass Thrown IN AIR is a Whopping 3.57 yards Mark Burnell is the 3rd in the Nfl in YAC, Take thoose away and he Averages 3.57 yards a throw. Whooptie Freakin DOO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodiesel#44 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Any discussion of Mark Brunell would necessitate a discussion of his backup, since if his backup is worse the discussion is largely moot. Fortunately, he is not.I Also I don't have to assume that under Mark Brunell, the Washington Redskins are 2-5. Collins is the backup to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcsmooth Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I like it when my fiancee wears edible undies. Humor: I like it when your fiancee wears them too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I dont post much anymore, mainly just read. However, 8 for 32 on 3rd and 8 or longer is pretty unacceptable With Brunell in we need everything running perfectly in order for the offense to be effective. He doesnt make plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 As far as the offense is concerned, the only "stat" that matters is points per game.... we are averaging 20 per game and 18th in the league, so we are below average, and that HAS to improve, but that isn't the main issue....The issue and more telling stat is on the other side of the ball: We are LAST in the league with takeaways at 5 (while our offense has the 4th least turnovers in the league at 6 - they have actually saved us from being 0-6 this year). The defense isn't taking the ball away and putting us in a better scoring position therefore causing us to put together longer drives than everyone else, hurting our scoring chances. The fault lies on the latter. I agree 100% and am just reposting this so more people can see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I dont post much anymore, mainly just read. However, 8 for 32 on 3rd and 8 or longer is pretty unacceptable. Out of curiosity, do you know how this stacks up against the rest of the league? I agree, it's unacceptable. We need to start winning 1st and 2nd down so we are not in 3rd and long situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 There are a great many things that a quarterback does that are reflected in statistics.Our complaint with Brunell are not the called screens, as that is a coaching issue. Our complaint is that Brunell checks down to unserviceable receivers and it is killing drives. That is a decision making problem. Regarding your complaint about the O-line blocking on the run, we are currently 3rd in the entire league in Adjusted Line Yards, which is a function of this: We are also 7th best in the league on Stuffed Percentage. "Stuffed" is measured as the amount of plays on 1st down that result in 0 or negative yards gained or, alternatively, the amount of 2-4th down running plays that result in less than 1/4th the amount of yards necessary to achieve a first down. We currently allow only 22.4 "Stuffed" plays. The league average is 25.3% Regarding the sacks and pressure: PROBABLY NOT. Washington is currently 12th in the league in adjusted sack rate (sacks allowed per pass play) at 5.3%. The league average is 6.9%. Criticizing this line is tantamount to slander, as it is completely baseless. Let me know what you think. Look dude. You want to ***** about QB rating and completion percentage, and then you present stats about the O-line and claim that any argument against the O-line is "slander" and "compeltely baseless". Hypothetical situation: A team runs on 1st down. Gains 1 yard. Then on second down they run again and gain 2.5 yards. So now the team is looking at 3rd & 6. They run again and gain 1.5 yards. According to your "stuffed" stat this is a pretty decent series. It lowers the team's "stuffed %", because the team was not "stuffed" even though tehy picked up 5 yards in 3 plays. Basically, I'm just trying to show you that, just how you criticize the QB rating and completion percentage...stats are not infallible just because YOU are the one using them, or because they back the anti-Brunell side. You can run circles, and dance around the facts, and come up with explanations for any stat. All I know is that Brunell commits very few turnovers. In addition, he leads (or gets taken along for the ride, however you guys want to put it) our team on decent-sized drives, that would be long enough on teams with any sort of defense. With a defense playing the way ours is, 1 turnover is enough to lose the game. ****...we lose the games even when we DONT turn the ball over. I want a QB who can protect the ball and put points on the board. Brunell has done a decent job of that. All this "he only throws dumpoffs" is a bunch of crap. I don't care HOW he runs the offense. I care that we get results. And 140 points (yes, a TD or 2 in garbage time, 2 TDs by special teams) speaks for itself. We've got a 9-7 offense, with an 0-16 defense. That's my bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertfox59 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Look dude. You want to ***** about QB rating and completion percentage, and then you present stats about the O-line and claim that any argument against the O-line is "slander" and "compeltely baseless".Hypothetical situation: A team runs on 1st down. Gains 1 yard. Then on second down they run again and gain 2.5 yards. So now the team is looking at 3rd & 6. They run again and gain 1.5 yards. According to your "stuffed" stat this is a pretty decent series. It lowers the team's "stuffed %", because the team was not "stuffed" even though tehy picked up 5 yards in 3 plays. Basically, I'm just trying to show you that, just how you criticize the QB rating and completion percentage...stats are not infallible just because YOU are the one using them, or because they back the anti-Brunell side. You can run circles, and dance around the facts, and come up with explanations for any stat. All I know is that Brunell commits very few turnovers. In addition, he leads (or gets taken along for the ride, however you guys want to put it) our team on decent-sized drives, that would be long enough on teams with any sort of defense. With a defense playing the way ours is, 1 turnover is enough to lose the game. ****...we lose the games even when we DONT turn the ball over. I want a QB who can protect the ball and put points on the board. Brunell has done a decent job of that. All this "he only throws dumpoffs" is a bunch of crap. I don't care HOW he runs the offense. I care that we get results. And 140 points (yes, a TD or 2 in garbage time, 2 TDs by special teams) speaks for itself. We've got a 9-7 offense, with an 0-16 defense. That's my bottom line. Thank you for posting that.... It is very similar to what I would have said had I wanted to :gus::gus::gus::gus: again... This guy is in love and married to stats. Everyone shows him how they cheat on him, but he will never get a divorce. love as they say is blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Out of curiosity, do you know how this stacks up against the rest of the league?I agree, it's unacceptable. We need to start winning 1st and 2nd down so we are not in 3rd and long situations. Yeah, God forbid Brunell would have to make a 10 yard pass on 3rd down. 4 yards is more his speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F Landry Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 It's how you judge qbs.I guess if we take Portis' long runs away, he's averaging 1.1 yards. :doh: Yet another pointless thread. I concur. :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 The defense isn't taking the ball away and putting us in a better scoring position therefore causing us to put together longer drives than everyone else, hurting our scoring chances. The fault lies on the latter. Our defense is horrible..I agree. But you want to know what is downright shameful? That this team has to field a top 7 defense in order to carry the offense/bail them out. It's sad that we have to have a shorter field in order to score when you see McNabb,the Mannings,Palmer etc directing long drives,chewing clock and getting points. It's disappointing to see Skins fans that look at 200 yards passing as a great day for our starting QB when in the past, that would've been laughed at. And now our fan base is talking like converting 3rd down and 8 is too much to ask/expect of our QB. My oh my...how far we've fallen............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 illone-As it wouldn't make any sense for me to blame Brunell for situations that are outside his control, for instance when a boneheaded Jansen jumps the line, then I won't. I don't have a problem with Brunell failing to convert a 3rd and 20. What I do have a problem with is when he makes bad decisions on 3rd and 8. This is a convertible play that could sustain a drive. A failure to convert relinquishes control of the ball just as a costly fumble or interception would (albeit with better field position, though with Derrick Frost punting that could be a point of contention). It might not be Brunell's fault that we're in 3rd and 8 (likely it is) but even if it is most certainly not his fault I can still hold him accountable for how he plays given a circumstance. Completing a a 3 yard pass to Betts on 3rd and 8 is foolishly stupid. It doesn't accomplish anything and kills a drive. He'd be better served taking a shot at a receiver down field occasionally, especially when we're playing the Colts from behind. In that one game, each time while playing from behind Brunell squandered 3 drives with short passes when a longer one was warranted. This is a decision making problem that needs to be addressed. If it is the case that the lion's share of Mark Brunell's passes are short yardage, and this is a statistically provable fact, than there isn't a coherent argument against bringing Campbell in that says "He cannot make the throws or will make bad decisions on these throws". Not even an APPARENTLY horrible JC can screw up a pass that travels 2 yards to Ladell Betts behind the line. Hopefully, if Brunell hasn't ruined him, Campbell will have the stones to take a shot down the field in such situations, as that is precisely what a 3rd and 7-9 warrants. If your argument really is "we don't know what Mark Brunell might have done when not checking it down" my response is "you're right, he might've thrown a 70 yard pass everytime". There's no need to depend on hypotheticals as there is an abundance of actual data reflecting actual decisions that were made on an actual football field. If you're serious about having a discussion about those statistics, then I'd love to treat you. If all you want to do is congratulate yourself and company for "winning" an argument I have yet to see, go right ahead with that. Game. Set. Match. Great post, way to put the homers in their place. :logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swisha Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Here's a stat that has been overlooked: Brunell has completed 38 passes on third downs out of 68 (about 56%), but out of those 38 completions, only 22 of them have resulted in a first down. So if you really think about it, that's essential completing 22/68 passes (32%). I don't know whose fault this is, but it has got to be fixed. This will give the team more offensives plays, as the Redskins are in the bottom in the NFL in offensive plays per game. As a result, the defense can get a momentum going because they're on the field less often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcgamer Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Brunell dropping back and not stepping up. There it is. Every game I've seen (3 so far) he has done this too many times to count. It gives the impression that he is under pressure when any good QB would just step up and let the O lineman push the end past him. Instead Brunell run either right into the guy he is trying to escape or takes off backwards and sideways and should he actually complete the pass on the run it might be for 3-5 yards on a ball he is actually throwing about 15. Edit-BTW, I bet all those people who were telling everyone to eat crow after the Jacksonville game feel pretty foolish right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rdskn4Lyf21 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Here's a stat that has been overlooked:Brunell has completed 38 passes on third downs out of 68 (about 56%), but out of those 38 completions, only 22 of them have resulted in a first down. So if you really think about it, that's essential completing 22/68 passes (32%). I don't know whose fault this is, but it has got to be fixed. This will give the team more offensives plays, as the Redskins are in the bottom in the NFL in offensive plays per game. As a result, the defense can get a momentum going because they're on the field less often. Just throwing this out there, but we are 13th in the league on third-down conversions. So while we are not stellar, we lean toward the better half of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rdskn4Lyf21 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 And with that said, we have the 4th highest 3rd down conversion attempts, the second best conversion percentage of those 4. So in short, we get stuck in a lot of third downs, but we convert a fairly good portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Game. Set. Match. Great post, way to put the homers in their place. :logo: Thanks for this wonderful addition to the thread. Do you have anything to contribute, or are you just going to make lame comments? Keep walkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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