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SUNSTONE

Anything MMA, except thumb wrestling

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The P4P thing in the UFC (and to almost the same degree Strikeforce) is impossible to call right now because all the champions are truly dominating their divisions. BJ is about the only guy that was brave enough to try his hand against the champ of a heavier division. Spider fought heavier and won easily but didn't fight the champ.

Having said that, my opinion is that it comes down to wins and losses...

1. Fedor- Hasn't lost since forever and that was due to cut.

2. Silva- Hasn't lost in almost as long.

3. The Dragon- Hasn't lost. I thought Rua beat him and I think Spider would beat him but facts are facts at this point. An argument could be made for #1 because he's never tasted defeat. The only reason I have him at #3 is because he hasn't fought that many fights.

4. GSP- Lost semi-recently. On fire right now, but hey- he lost recently.

5. Baby Jay- Lost 2x to GSP, once to Machida. Lost recently. Impossible to rank him any higher. Hurts to say that because BJ is my guy.

this is about where i'm at as well

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Using your reasoning, if GSP goes up and fights a couple 185er's and loses as long as he goes back and dominates 170 he's still a great P4P fighter?

Yes. Isn't that what P4P is all about? Isn't there a distinction between best fighter in the world and best P4P fighter in the world (though, IMO, Fedor is still both)?

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BJ isn't losing because of weight. He's losing because that speed advantage he enjoys doesn't exist against GSP. He can't sit back defend the take down and throw hands. GSP can take him down at will and avoid BJ's hands.

GSP isn't taking him down with weight. He scores sweeps and double legs. double legs are all speed and technique, not strength.

He certainly is. He's using strength which is apparent due to his muscle weight. GSP is one hell of an athlete, but is there ANYONE in MMA with better takedown defense than BJ? Are you telling me that if BJ had the physical ability to put on lean muscle in a similar fashion that GSP can, he wouldn't be able to stuff those takedowns? To say GSP is all technique (not suggesting that's what you're saying) would be false. His ability to overpower his opponents coupled with his technique is what makes him so amazing. Just like BJ's speed coupled with his technique make him so amazing.

EDIT: And again, I'm speaking in the realm of P4P. Not best fighter.

Edited by herrmag

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1. Fedor- Hasn't lost since forever and that was due to cut.

Also, the only reason they called that a loss is because it was a tournament and they had to declare a winner in order to continue.

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Strikeforce & WEC both have cards on Saturday night:

MAIN CARD

* Donald Cerrone vs. Ed Ratcliff

* Chris Horodecki vs. Anthony Njokuani

* Joseph Benavidez vs. Rani Yahya

* Scott Jorgensen vs. Takeya Mizugaki

PRELIMINARY CARD

* Bart Palaszewski vs. Anthony Pettis

* Muhsin Corbbrey vs. Zach Micklewright

* Chad George vs. John Hosman

* Tyler Toner vs. Brandon Visher

* Kyle Dietz vs. Brad Pickett

* Erik Koch vs. Jameel Massouh

MAIN CARD

* Cung Le vs. Scott Smith

* Champ Josh Thomson vs. interim champ Gilbert Melendez (lightweight title-unification bout)

* Matt Lindland vs. Ronald "Jacare" Souza

* Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal vs. Mike Whitehead

* Robbie Lawler vs. Trevor Prangley

PRELIMINARY CARD

* Antwain Britt vs. Scott Lighty

* Daisuke Nakamura vs. Bryan Travers

* Juan Nunez vs. Luis Mendoza

* Bobby Stack vs. Alex Trevino

* Alex Crispim vs. A.J. Fonseca

strikeforce definitely has the better of the two cards, so i'll probably watch that live and record WEC

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Right now is the time to strike (no pun intended) for Strikeforce. Considering the UFC is hampered by injuries and the most recent card that was visible to new/casual fans included a guy with a ridiculous beer gut winning TUF and one of the worst fights ever (Kimbo/Alexander), Strikeforce has an opportunity to make a name for itself.

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He certainly is. He's using strength which is apparent due to his muscle weight. GSP is one hell of an athlete, but is there ANYONE in MMA with better takedown defense than BJ? Are you telling me that if BJ had the physical ability to put on lean muscle in a similar fashion that GSP can, he wouldn't be able to stuff those takedowns? To say GSP is all technique (not suggesting that's what you're saying) would be false. His ability to overpower his opponents coupled with his technique is what makes him so amazing. Just like BJ's speed coupled with his technique make him so amazing.

EDIT: And again, I'm speaking in the realm of P4P. Not best fighter.

Double leg takedown doesn't require strength unless it's against the cage. GSP takes opponents down in the center of the ring, no slam. That isn't strength or size, it's speed and technique. BJ can't stuff that at all. His entire takedown defense is based on pressing his ass against the fence and using balance to combat single leg attempts.

Very few guys take down opponents in the center. GSP is one of them and BJ has not answer for it. They could be that exact same size and BJ would be on his ass.

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Using your reasoning, if GSP goes up and fights a couple 185er's and loses as long as he goes back and dominates 170 he's still a great P4P fighter?

If he loses to a fighter that outweighs him by 20lb by fight time and that fighter uses that weight advantage as his primary weapon, then yes. GSP even said after the fight that game plan was to lean on Penn to make his blood drain from his shoulders slowing down his hands and tiring him out. I would bet the house that Marquartd (biggest 185er that wrestlers I can think of) would own GSP in a middleweight fight with the same gameplan GSP used on Penn. I am not penalizing GSP. I am just throwing that fight out when I think about p4p. His fights against Hughes, Fitch, and Alves put him in the top 5 for me. I still think he has a weak chin. The Serra loss also knocks him down.

Edited by Sebowski

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Strikeforce & WEC both have cards on Saturday night

Fudge...I thought that the WEC card was on Friday night. I am going to have to figure out some creative scheduling now, as I will be out of town. I am going to be at a friend's house and he does not have Showtime. I told him I would pay for it for a month for him in order to watch the Strikeforce card. :D

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Double leg takedown doesn't require strength unless it's against the cage. GSP takes opponents down in the center of the ring, no slam. That isn't strength or size, it's speed and technique. BJ can't stuff that at all. His entire takedown defense is based on pressing his ass against the fence and using balance to combat single leg attempts.

Very few guys take down opponents in the center. GSP is one of them and BJ has not answer for it. They could be that exact same size and BJ would be on his ass.

Everything is affected by his strength; his speeed, ability to lay on someone and not allow them to get up; everything. Even in a double leg takedown, you're still driving your shoulder through them, and pulling on the backs of their legs. I don't understand how you can say size and strength play no part. I think it's the size and strength of GSP coupled with his technique that make him the best at taking down opponents. I see no way that they are mutually exclusive.

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Double leg takedown doesn't require strength unless it's against the cage. GSP takes opponents down in the center of the ring, no slam. That isn't strength or size, it's speed and technique. BJ can't stuff that at all. His entire takedown defense is based on pressing his ass against the fence and using balance to combat single leg attempts.

Very few guys take down opponents in the center. GSP is one of them and BJ has not answer for it. They could be that exact same size and BJ would be on his ass.

His entire takedown defense vs Sanchez was pressing his ass against the fence, but BJ has legendary takedown defense. I seen him hop on one leg in the center of the ring more than a few times and not get taken down. BJ vs GSP was the exception really.

GSP is just in another league, in GSP's weight class he looks to be unbeatable as does BJ in his and Anderson Silva in his.

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Everything is affected by his strength; his speeed, ability to lay on someone and not allow them to get up; everything. Even in a double leg takedown, you're still driving your shoulder through them, and pulling on the backs of their legs. I don't understand how you can say size and strength play no part. I think it's the size and strength of GSP coupled with his technique that make him the best at taking down opponents. I see no way that they are mutually exclusive.

I agree, GSP has the perfect balance of size, speed and technique. You could easily argue that pound for pound GSP is the best fighter in the world right now, biggest competition being Anderson Silva. I know some people would wanna argue for Fedor, but IMO there are too many fighters out there that Fedor isn't fighting, he is beating scrubs right now so I am very skeptical on him until he proves himself against the elite.

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Your fighting sport frightens and confuses me. I was under the impression that screaming "YES" over and over on the way to the ring guaranteed you a victory. But what would I know, I'm just a caveman.

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Edited by Forehead

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I agree, GSP has the perfect balance of size, speed and technique. You could easily argue that pound for pound GSP is the best fighter in the world right now, biggest competition being Anderson Silva. I know some people would wanna argue for Fedor, but IMO there are too many fighters out there that Fedor isn't fighting, he is beating scrubs right now so I am very skeptical on him until he proves himself against the elite.

in fedor's last 3 fights he's beaten 1 man who was top consensus top 3 in division, 1 man who was top 5 in the division, and one who was top 10

but you're right, he was fighting "scrubs"

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I know some people would wanna argue for Fedor, but IMO there are too many fighters out there that Fedor isn't fighting, he is beating scrubs right now so I am very skeptical on him until he proves himself against the elite.

Just curious, aside from Brock Lesnar who else would Fedor have to fight to make you not so skeptical? Who exactly is he not fighting that's so great?

I can't think of anyone in the UFC's HW division that would pose a real threat to him besides Lesnar.

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