SUNSTONE Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Too bad she didn't take the credit herself. She worked hard to get through and be very successful, and then says she couldn't have done it without God. That's because she didn't do it alone. I assume you believe that people who believe in God do so without any reason. But the truth is, there is a Holy Spirit at work in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit works on our Hearts and on our Minds....if....you......let Him. Meaning the He effects our emotions(heart) and uses sound wisdom(mind) to guide us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fight_on_til_you_have_won Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Like others have said, I don't know what the exact circumstances were, but given that it "drew jeers from the nearly 400 graduates and their families," I'd venture a guess and say that the administration went overboard. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Free speech is not protected at school.The school and administration was well within their limits to do this. first statement is not entirely true. "First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years" -Justice Fortas, Tinker v. Des Moines School District. although this is not a normal circumstance. it is graduation and these people are forced to sit through this speach. it is also true that a school must be neutral and give the opposing side just as much opportunity to spread their view. so legally if she were permitted to continue with her preaching session, athiests, jews, muslims, and pastafarians must all be permitted the same opportunity to spread thier views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 That's because she didn't do it alone. I assume you believe that people who believe in God do so without any reason. But the truth is, there is a Holy Spirit at work in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit works on our Hearts and on our Minds....if....you......let Him. Meaning the He effects our emotions(heart) and uses sound wisdom(mind) to guide us. So she cheated eh? j/k There is no God so she did it alone. She should have a little bit more self esteem than to say that she couldn't have done it without God. I try to stay away from religious shouting matches here because I know there isn't a God and you know there is, so how can either one of us be wrong or right? It's as cut and dry an issue as there ever will be. I KNOW that most people who believe in God were indoctrinated with it by well meaning people who didn't know any better. I also know that people will find whatever evidence they need to perpetuate their belief. Fear is the reason for most of the belief and the punishment for questioning God's existence is the reason why they find the proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 So would it be acceptable for the validictorian to go up to the microphone and say, "I just want everyone to know that god had nothing to do with my achievements, it is my hard work and my parents hard work that got me here, and to praise a fairytale like figure such as god would be not only redundant, but it would be denying the hard work I had put in the last four years to get here" I am sure they would try to cut something like that off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 So she cheated eh? j/kThere is no God so she did it alone. She should have a little bit more self esteem than to say that she couldn't have done it without God. I try to stay away from religious shouting matches here because I know there isn't a God and you know there is, so how can either one of us be wrong or right? It's as cut and dry an issue as there ever will be. I KNOW that most people who believe in God were indoctrinated with it by well meaning people who didn't know any better. I also know that people will find whatever evidence they need to perpetuate their belief. Fear is the reason for most of the belief and the punishment for questioning God's existence is the reason why they find the proof. To say that there is no God, is a close minded statement. I wasn't raised in a church, I don't remember ever going to church as a child. When I turned 21 I had my first experience. Since then I have had 1000's of experiences with God. Including.... - An instant healing in my back. My back hurt every day, I fell down some stairs one time, and threw out my back another time and went to the hospital. - An instant healing from a fever. I was sick as a dog, and it left INSTANTLY. - I have testimonys from a half a dozen people who have experienced healings in their body from me praying over them. Now that's just healing side of my experiences. And that's only a fraction of what God has done in my life.......and I have only just begun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 So would it be acceptable for the validictorian to go up to the microphone and say, "I just want everyone to know that god had nothing to do with my achievements, it is my hard work and my parents hard work that got me here, and to praise a fairytale like figure such as god would be not only redundant, but it would be denying the hard work I had put in the last four years to get here"I am sure they would try to cut something like that off. It'd be constitutional, and I suspect they'd censor it, which would also be constitutional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 To say that there is no God, is a close minded statement.I wasn't raised in a church, I don't remember ever going to church as a child. When I turned 21 I had my first experience. Since then I have had 1000's of experiences with God. Including.... - An instant healing in my back. My back hurt every day, I fell down some stairs one time, and threw out my back another time and went to the hospital. - An instant healing from a fever. I was sick as a dog, and it left INSTANTLY. - I have testimonys from a half a dozen people who have experienced healings in their body from me praying over them. Now that's just healing side of my experiences. And that's only a fraction of what God has done in my life.......and I have only just begun. are you telling me the human body has the ability to heal itself? wow, that's news to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Personally, I think if you're the valedictorian then you should be able to say whatever the hell you want, even things that are inappropriate or religious. I guess you can't say anything illegal, like everyone should assasinate Bush, but if you wanna stand up there and tell everyone there's a kegger at your house after graduation or that you're thanking God for your success then so be it. The rule's pretty clear here though. As a (expired. Need to renew) card-carrying member of that godless ACLU, the school was wrong. The speaker wasn't representing the school, or the government. He wasn't picked based on his religous views. (If they select Pat Robertson to give a speech, then they're endorsing a religion. But if they pick the guy with the highest GPA, they're not.) He earned his 15 minutes of fame, and the "prize" is a microphone. By cutting the microphone, the school crossed over from failing to endorse a religion, to suppressing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 are you telling me the human body has the ability to heal itself? wow, that's news to me. Ummm.... I think he's trying to tell you that God healed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 To say that there is no God, is a close minded statement.I wasn't raised in a church, I don't remember ever going to church as a child. When I turned 21 I had my first experience. Since then I have had 1000's of experiences with God. Including.... - An instant healing in my back. My back hurt every day, I fell down some stairs one time, and threw out my back another time and went to the hospital. - An instant healing from a fever. I was sick as a dog, and it left INSTANTLY. - I have testimonys from a half a dozen people who have experienced healings in their body from me praying over them. Now that's just healing side of my experiences. And that's only a fraction of what God has done in my life.......and I have only just begun. Your primary care givers did not believe in God and you made the decision to do so at the age of 21? You had NO exposure to God before 21? Interesting that you say "close minded". For the evidence you provided here, there are other non-God reasons for it. I've had spontaneous back healing - due to my good health and the bodies natural tendency to correct *minor* back ailments due to muscle strain. I can get testimony from a few posters here that Murtha said the US presense in Iraq is a bigger threat to world peace than NK or Iran's nuclear aspirations, but their testomony isn't proof. Lets also not forget the placebo effect. That is the nature of fevers. The reason why you get a fever is to kill off the germs that cause the symptoms. Once the body can fight off the remaining germs without requiring such a hostile environment, the fever clears. Do you have an open mind to the fact that God *may* not exist or do you fear that question? I know it's against the rules to question the existance but have your ever journeyed down that path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 also from the tinker v. des moines school district case-- "The truth is that a teacher of kindergarten, grammar school, or high school pupils no more carries into a school with him a complete right to freedom of speech and expression than an anti-Catholic or anti-Semite carries with him a complete freedom of [522] speech and religion into a Catholic church or Jewish synagogue. Nor does a person carry with him into the United States Senate or House, or into the Supreme Court, or any other court, a complete constitutional right to go into those places contrary to their rules and speak his mind on any subject he pleases. It is a myth to say that any person has a constitutional right to say what he pleases, where he pleases, and when he pleases. Our Court has decided precisely the opposite."-Justice Fortas did i win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Your primary care givers did not believe in God and you made the decision to do so at the age of 21? You had NO exposure to God before 21?Interesting that you say "close minded". For the evidence you provided here, there are other non-God reasons for it. I've had spontaneous back healing - due to my good health and the bodies natural tendency to correct *minor* back ailments due to muscle strain. I can get testimony from a few posters here that Murtha said the US presense in Iraq is a bigger threat to world peace than NK or Iran's nuclear aspirations, but their testomony isn't proof. Lets also not forget the placebo effect. That is the nature of fevers. The reason why you get a fever is to kill off the germs that cause the symptoms. Once the body can fight off the remaining germs without requiring such a hostile environment, the fever clears. Do you have an open mind to the fact that God *may* not exist or do you fear that question? I know it's against the rules to question the existance but have your ever journeyed down that path? No exposure before 21. You skipped out on the fact that my back hurt every day. God spoke to my mind in a thought, "pray for your back". So I did, and it was instantly healed. From that moment forth it never hurt like that again. It's one thing for a fever to go away. It's something else entirely for the fever and all the systems to go away the very second I prayed for it. I had a sore throat, a nasty cough, I was sick as a dog. Then the very second I prayed it ALL went away. Do I have an open mind to the fact that God doesn't exist? Are you kidding me? I use to say "God doees not exist, and the bible is nothing but a book to explain the unexplainable, and to instill fear into people to do the right thing." I said that the very night I was born again. Placebo??? Well if me praying for myself is a placebo effect, then you might want to look into getting that placebo effect going for you. Besides there is a lot more to my experiences than what I have posted. Look, don't believe me. I'm not asking you to, I don't expect you to. But all I'm asking is for you to go check it out for yourself. Have an open mind and seek God out with the desire to know Him if He is there. That's a true open mind. Because nothing compares to God in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 So if I were your valedictorian you would support my right to get up on stage and tell everyone why Christianity is nothing more than a fairy tale?That would be utterly inappropriate IMO. School graduations are not an "anything legal goes" scenario. Read Larry's post. IMO if you're the valedictorian then you've earned the right to stand up there and say what you want. It's obviously completely inapropriate, but if you really wanna stand up in front of all the graduates, parents and faculty and say that then so be it.As a (expired. Need to renew) card-carrying member of that godless ACLU, the school was wrong. The speaker wasn't representing the school, or the government. He wasn't picked based on his religous views. (If they select Pat Robertson to give a speech, then they're endorsing a religion. But if they pick the guy with the highest GPA, they're not.) He earned his 15 minutes of fame, and the "prize" is a microphone. By cutting the microphone, the school crossed over from failing to endorse a religion, to suppressing one. About sums it up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 As a (expired. Need to renew) card-carrying member of that godless ACLU, the school was wrong. The speaker wasn't representing the school, or the government. He wasn't picked based on his religous views. (If they select Pat Robertson to give a speech, then they're endorsing a religion. But if they pick the guy with the highest GPA, they're not.) He earned his 15 minutes of fame, and the "prize" is a microphone. By cutting the microphone, the school crossed over from failing to endorse a religion, to suppressing one. that would be my take on it as well. Government cannot endorse religious belief, but neither can government prohibit it. School sponsored prayer is not appropriate - praying by individual students is fine. It's a pretty clear line, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 No exposure before 21. Placebo??? Well if me praying for myself is a placebo effect, then you might want to look into getting that placebo effect going for you. Besides there is a lot more to my experiences than what I have posted. Look, don't believe me. I'm not asking you to, I don't expect you to. But all I'm asking is for you to go check it out for yourself. Have an open mind and seek God out with the desire to know Him if He is there. That's a true open mind. Because nothing compares to God in my life. Sunstone, you seem like a nice guy, but you really should go on a mission of some kind if you feel such a need to proselytize. Also, IMO, we all "check it out for ourselves" and we all have our faith, spirituality and illusions. The difference is that you feel obligated to aggrandize and broadcast yours. As you have a "personal" relationship with your god, may I request that it remain "personal"? In return, I promise to keep an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Sunstone, you seem like a nice guy, but you really should go on a mission of some kind if you feel such a need to proselytize. Also, IMO, we all "check it out for ourselves" and we all have our faith, spirituality and illusions. The difference is that you feel obligated to aggrandize and broadcast yours. As you have a "personal" relationship with your god, may I request that it remain "personal"? In return, I promise to keep an open mind. Damn right I'm a nice guy you jerk! :mad: lmao just kidding :laugh: Anyways I'm going to have to decline that request. I do have a "personal" relationship with God, but that doesn't mean I should keep it private. I just wanted to say that so as to not give you any "illusions" that I would do other wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Damn right I'm a nice guy you jerk! :mad: lmao just kidding :laugh: Anyways I'm going to have to decline that request. I do have a "personal" relationship with God, but that doesn't mean I should keep it private. I just wanted to say that so as to not give you any "illusions" that I would do other wise. in that case, we'll all just have to close our minds off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 in that case, we'll all just have to close our minds off. Thank God for answered prayers.:cloud9: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Hail Zeus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabee1973 Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 are you telling me the human body has the ability to heal itself? wow, that's news to me. No he is saying God can heal you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabee1973 Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 Damn right I'm a nice guy you jerk! :mad: lmao just kidding :laugh: Anyways I'm going to have to decline that request. I do have a "personal" relationship with God, but that doesn't mean I should keep it private. I just wanted to say that so as to not give you any "illusions" that I would do other wise. Thats good the bible says to go out and spread the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Sunstone, you seem like a nice guy, but you really should go on a mission of some kind if you feel such a need to proselytize. Also, IMO, we all "check it out for ourselves" and we all have our faith, spirituality and illusions. The difference is that you feel obligated to aggrandize and broadcast yours. As you have a "personal" relationship with your god, may I request that it remain "personal"? In return, I promise to keep an open mind. I don't agree. As long as he remains respectful and doesn't spam the board, there is nothing wrong with some prosletysing. Jesus instructed believers not to hide their light under a bushel, and that is what he sincerely believes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 I don't think SUNSTONE even has a bushel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 I don't agree. As long as he remains respectful and doesn't spam the board, there is nothing wrong with some prosletysing. Jesus instructed believers not to hide their light under a bushel, and that is what he sincerely believes. In the context of forum courtesy, a request to limit "preaching" is appropriate. A little goes a long way and tales of faith-healing impress no one. In the context of The Word of Jesus, I'm way out of line! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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