ZoEd Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Look what Civil war did for this country, isn't it tragic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdowwe Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Are you actually saying Saddam had the power of Hitler, or could have even possibly obtained anything near what Nazi Germany had? Please, that is such a horrible argument it is not even worth the time to debate. Within his own country...YES! You were talking about control of his own country, so I compared him to someone who had the same amount of control of his country...Hitler. So yes, to answer your own question, Saddam did have the power Hitler had within his own country and used it to kill hundreds of thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I'll agree with lucky, here. War sucks. (Unless you're practicing war by remote controll, in which case war sucks for other people.) Now, will things in Iraq be better two years from now than they were under Saddam? Could well be. I hope so. (If they aren't, then I'd say that George Bush will have done more harm to the US than any President I can think of.) But yeah, right now, I'd bet they're worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Look what Civil war did for this country, isn't it tragic? Yes, it was. It's still the bloodiest war in US history. More soldiers died in the first three months of Grant's command than in the entire Vietnam war. Entire cities burned to the ground, 100 years before the invention of "weapons of mass destruction". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Stability is better than civil war, because civil war will lead to even more death and poverty. Knowing your history you will confuse that as defense of Saddam, it's not. It is knowing the reality of the situation (a tragic one). Let me get this straight. What you are saying is that the U.S. should be commended for the "stability" it brought to Iraq by our support of Saddam Hussein. You are saying that aren't you? That the previous U.S. adminstations (Carter, Reagan, and Bush Sr.) that propped up Saddam should be applauded because they brought Iraq "stability". Saddam's "stability" caused hundreds of thousands of his people to die. Irregardless of how I feel about that or what U.S. administration supported what, the FACT is he murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people. And you wish to for Iraq to go back to those days? Unbelievable. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Look what Civil war did for this country, isn't it tragic? What exactly are trying to get at? It's not even a fair comparison. Let me put it this way: What would you rather have? 1. Saddam 2. A taliban like government that is friendly with Iran Given the options, I will go with #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 What exactly are trying to get at? It's not even a fair comparison.Let me put it this way: What would you rather have? 1. Saddam 2. A taliban like government that is friendly with Iran Given the options, I will go with #1 Well, option #2 isn't even on the table, now is it Einstein? Unless you have some crystal ball you're looking into. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 What exactly are trying to get at? It's not even a fair comparison.Let me put it this way: What would you rather have? 1. Saddam 2. A taliban like government that is friendly with Iran Given the options, I will go with #1 Option#3 The Kurds will not go along with #2,so either they compromise or split. Either is preferable to Sadamn :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 ZoEd, I hear you my man. We've been around here for about the same period of time. We've both(and others) have seen things that people on this board can only imagine or visualize based on what they see on (what they believe to be impartial) the news. I have no problem with that. If they would listen just once they might learn something. May not change their mind, and I respect that also, but they may learn something. I know for a fact that I made a positive impact on the lives of many Iraqis, I count many as friends, and through the wonders of e-mail am able to keep in touch with them. They have absolutely nothing to gain from me anymore...I am not funding projects, I am not paying locals, I am not deciding on targets.(Really what I mean is I hold no influence with those that are). The constant bashing of the mission on this board used to really bother me. now I just realize that those of us who have been there and done that have contributed more to the world than at least some of the adamant opposition on here could dream of. Originally Posted by ZoEd It get's pretty old reading post after post from people who only know what CNN show's them or what they read on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Was just watching the History Channel Revolutionary war about George Washing losing in the beginning and the people wanting to get rid of him? It should be on in the next couple of days.... Its amazing what could have happened if they had 24hr a day cable news network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Let me get this straight. What you are saying is that the U.S. should be commended for the "stability" it brought to Iraq by our support of Saddam Hussein. You are saying that aren't you? That the previous U.S. adminstations (Carter, Reagan, and Bush Sr.) that propped up Saddam should be applauded because they brought Iraq "stability". Damn me for being right. Sigh. I am defending or condoning anything. Well, option #2 isn't even on the table, now is it Einstein? Unless you have some crystal ball you're looking in. Sadly, it seems many in the region have a habit of turning to Islamic fundamentalism when given the choice. I truly hope that some form of liberal democracy gets off the ground in Iraq. Lives are at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 You know what the crazy thing is Redskins Diehard. Some of us who oppose the war know people in the military too. A couple of them while publicly supporting the war say very different things during private conservations. Shocking, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 How did this turn into aniother debate of cut and run or stay the course. I was only gone for 2 hours! See what happens when a thread loses the religious leader (Calm, that was a play on my name do not take offense)..... Chom, I was not offended by you saying you people. I tend to get a little frustrated by being classified a right wing nut because I lean conservative and believe in staying the course and reading the Bible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Yes, it was. It's still the bloodiest war in US history. More soldiers died in the first three months of Grant's command than in the entire Vietnam war. Entire cities burned to the ground, 100 years before the invention of "weapons of mass destruction". What was the end result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 ZoEd, I hear you my man. We've been around here for about the same period of time. We've both(and others) have seen things that people on this board can only imagine or visualize based on what they see on (what they believe to be impartial) the news. I have no problem with that. If they would listen just once they might learn something. May not change their mind, and I respect that also, but they may learn something. I know for a fact that I made a positive impact on the lives of many Iraqis, I count many as friends, and through the wonders of e-mail am able to keep in touch with them. They have absolutely nothing to gain from me anymore...I am not funding projects, I am not paying locals, I am not deciding on targets.(Really what I mean is I hold no influence with those that are).The constant bashing of the mission on this board used to really bother me. now I just realize that those of us who have been there and done that have contributed more to the world than at least some of the adamant opposition on here could dream of. Originally Posted by ZoEd It get's pretty old reading post after post from people who only know what CNN show's them or what they read on the internet Last time I went down this road I was crucified for voicing actual facts that I've seen with my own eyes. Seems that by going to the country where the war is being fault and stating facts that contradict what people want to believe gives the impression that your better than everybody else. You get ridiculed for knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that you made a difference. Some went as far to say the Iraqi's I became friends with only did so out of fear. :doh: It's a losing cause brother. I know the good we're doing and evidently so do you. Keep it up, I know I will. :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I've just finished reading all 13 pages of of this thread thus far, and you know what... neither side, Liberal Democrat or Republican Conservative has changed one opinion of the other, in this entire thread. What a surprise. The only thing that has come from this thread is more of the same. I usually fall on the conservative side of things, but the current state of American politics is piss poor at best, and has frustrated me to no end. I don't even have the stomach, or drive to debate anymore. Neither the Democrats or Republicans can agree on ANYTHING, neither side concedes ANYTHING, and nowhere is their better proof of this than the tailgate's political threads. It truly scares me how divided we are in this country these days, probably never more since the days of the civil war. I really hope there is a canidate somewhere in our future, and I don't care WHICH party he comes from, that can help we Americans find some common ground again. My :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I've just finished reading all 13 pages of of this thread thus far, and you know what... neither side, Liberal Democrat or Republican Conservative has changed one opinion of the other, in this entire thread. What a surprise. This should not be framed as a democrat/liberal vs. republican/conservative debate. I oppose the war and I am not a democrat or a liberal. The truth is the pro war conservative right lost the centrists/moderates on this debate. I am tired of people on this board painting the opposition to the war as some sort of extreme radical position. The majority of Americans now believe the war was mistake (poll after poll show that). An increasingly amount of conservatives believe it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 You know what the crazy thing is Redskins Diehard. Some of us who oppose the war know people in the military too. A couple of them while publicly supporting the war say very different things during private conservations. Shocking, I know. I have never claimed the universal support of the armed forces. I know a lot of people in the military also. I know some that went and don't support it. They still did good things. Although you didn't say if the people you know spent any time there or not...and that isn't being judgemental of them...not everyone gets to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I have never claimed the universal support of the armed forces. I know a lot of people in the military also. I know some that went and don't support it. They still did good things. Although you didn't say if the people you know spent any time there or not...and that isn't being judgemental of them...not everyone gets to go. Yes they did spent time there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 This should not be framed as a democrat/liberal vs. republican/conservative debate. I oppose the war and I am not a democrat or a liberal. The truth is the pro war conservative right lost the centrists/moderates on this debate. I am tired of people on this board painting the opposition to the war as some sort of extreme radical position. The majority of American now believe the war was mistake (poll after poll show that). An increasingly amount of conservatives believe it as well. But it is completely alright to paint the supporters as some sort of extreme radical position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 But it is completely alright to paint the supporters as some sort of extreme radical position. You are right it's not acceptable. I have no beef with SHF (he is one of the biggest supporters of the war). However, the thing is some on this board who support the war advocate nuclear war and paint the opposition as un-American. That's crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I've just finished reading all 13 pages of of this thread thus far, and you know what... neither side, Liberal Democrat or Republican Conservative has changed one opinion of the other, in this entire thread. What a surprise. The only thing that has come from this thread is more of the same. I usually fall on the conservative side of things, but the current state of American politics is piss poor at best, and has frustrated me to no end. I don't even have the stomach, or drive to debate anymore. Neither the Democrats or Republicans can agree on ANYTHING, neither side concedes ANYTHING, and nowhere is their better proof of this than the tailgate's political threads. It truly scares me how divided we are in this country these days, probably never more since the days of the civil war. I really hope there is a canidate somewhere in our future, and I don't care WHICH party he comes from, that can help we Americans find some common ground again. My :2cents: I've said the same thing in numerous threads. You show me a politician that's honest and shoots the american people straight and I'll show you the person I'm going to vote for. I will give Bush one thing, he doesn't seem to play politics with his decisions. Right or wrong if the guy has conviction about something he's steadfast and downright pig headed about it. You're right this country is divided and no one wants to admit they're wrong and won't concede when the other is right. I don't consider myself democrat or republican. I have views that would be considered correct by both. The thing is this, this war right or wrong is already being fought and it's too late now to back out. It pisses me off when people talk about what's going on in Iraq like they've been there when in fact most of them haven't. It is a fact that our media is run by sensationalism/drama and that's all they report. Very little if any "good" things are being reported, it's all negative doom and gloom. The same people on this board that use the media as their sole source of truth will turn around and berate them saying they're pushing an agenda when they report something that contradicts their beliefs or political agenda. The problem with our country is the media, politicians and big business. They're all in bed together, left and right. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I've said the same thing in numerous threads. You show me a politician that's honest and shoots the american people straight and I'll show you the person I'm going to vote for. Did you support Howard Dean? At times he was too honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 This should not be framed as a democrat/liberal vs. republican/conservative debate. I oppose the war and I am not a democrat or a liberal. The truth is the pro war conservative right lost the centrists/moderates on this debate. I am tired of people on this board painting the opposition to the war as some sort of extreme radical position. The majority of American now believe the war was mistake (poll after poll show that). An increasingly amount of conservatives believe it as well. The problem, and what frustrates me the most. Is that EVERYBODY who argues in these threads, in the news, and on T.V. is more concerned about who is RIGHT, and who is WRONG instead of how best to handle the situation, and our problems. We can't even get past arguing about whether or not the war was justified to begin with. How is that helping us deal with the current state of affairs in Iraq? For me, we should stop arguing about WHY we are there in the first place...WE ARE THERE...so let's figure out how best to finish this job, which is at this point to leave a stable Iraq that can govern itself, and bring our troops home. If our best thinkers put as much effort into how best to bring a successful conclusion to this campaign as they do arguing about why we are even involved in this campaign, we could have re-invented the wheel by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Did you support Howard Dean? At times he was too honest I liked Dean, I would have voted for him over Kerry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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