The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Fergasun]

So I have not seen WWE for many years and caught RAW this week - specifially Vinces promo for Shane vs. Taker.

Has Shane always been a face - I thought he was a heel? And when did Taker turn into a stooge for Vince?

[Kosher Ham]

What 9 year old kid in 2016 can sit through a show this long?

 

They have/had 9 year old kids at the show ? 

[justice98]

LOL...Jimmy Garvin looks nothing like he used too.

I was halfway paying attention forgot Garvin was going in with them and I had no idea that was Jimmy Garvin. lol. And really had no idea he was as old as he is. He looks like a guy that transitioned out of wrestling pretty well though. Seems jolly and content.

On an unrelated note, speaking of old guys, I randomly saw a pic of Stan Lane recently and he's only a year younger than Garvin but he looks 15 years younger and like he could still go.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So I have not seen WWE for many years and caught RAW this week - specifially Vinces promo for Shane vs. Taker.

Has Shane always been a face - I thought he was a heel? And when did Taker turn into a stooge for Vince?

 

Shane's been gone for ten years and no one understands the booking behind that match.

 

The message of last night's show: We are are so sorry that it's not 1998.

 

Somehow, the WWE has convinced its roster that the highest achievement a wrestler can have is jobbing out to an old cripple who was once famous.

 

Give me a reason to watch any of these geeks tonight.

[KDawg]

I loved Mania last night. The wrestling was excellent. The stories were excellent. Lots of unanswered questions...

Only two changes I would have made: Austin, Foley and HBK beat up the Social Outcasts, not LoN.

The Rock and Cena don't beat down the Wyatts. UNLESS this leads to Bray turning face and the Family turning on him. Led by Harper (even with the injury they could find a way) and adding a new member.

But I didn't like some of the outcomes. But oh well.

I think we'll see Corbin, Joe, Balor and the Bullet Club tonight.

And I think we'll see see the beginning of the brand split with Shane taking over Smackdown over the next few weeks.

[bobandweave]

What's the point of the Shane Undertaker match now that we know Undertaker went over? Is Vince trying to bury these guys? Does Shane have a death wish? First we hear over and over "Undertaker is my ****" from Vince in the promos which hurts his brand, then we get excited that "change is going to come" when Shane wins and he loses so its status quo right? 

 

Not only does he lose he does one hell of a stupid stunt that could have killed not only him but the entire show. Dumbest thing I've seen in a very long time of dumb things. Does the WWE think Shane is indestructable or have they forgotten what happened to Mick Foley when he fell off the top of that ring which wasn't as high or the money they lost when Owen Hart fell to his death from not much higher or when New Jack almost killed himself jumping off a much shorter distance? The only thing awesome about that to me was Shane survived it and how it made no sense to me to have done it in the first place. The parent inside of me is angry he did that in front of his three kids too. 

 

I enjoyed the show overall and was entertained but that match didn't sit well with me and makes no sense to me where they go from here. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

What's the point of the Shane Undertaker match now that we know Undertaker went over? Is Vince trying to bury these guys?

 

Bury Shane?

 

A 50 year old non-wrestler who hasn't been on tv in ten years?

 

Either you mean that literally or your don't actually know what "bury" means in wrestling terminology.

[KDawg]

People overreact to match outcomes.

Who knows what happens the next few weeks.

Would you rather have had the non-wrestler beat the Undertaker in Hell in a Cell at WrestleMania?

That story isn't over. Don't assume status quo. Remember, the story was that Shane had dirt on Vince in a lock box. Something could still come of that.

Sometimes I think wrestling fans are too "smart". You lose the fun parts and focus on what you hate.

WrestleMania was fun and had excellent wrestling.

*shrug*

Let's see what happens.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I loved Mania last night. The wrestling was excellent. The stories were excellent. Lots of unanswered questions...

 

 

You are insane. No one watched that show. People survived that show. The match of the night was a 3-star woman's match.

 

Only two changes I would have made: Austin, Foley and HBK beat up the Social Outcasts, not LoN.

 

 

They should have had the Godfather beat up Reigns to end the show just to prove that the modern guys are not worth watching.

 

The Rock and Cena don't beat down the Wyatts. UNLESS this leads to Bray turning face and the Family turning on him. Led by Harper (even with the injury they could find a way) and adding a new member.

 

They need to end the Wyatts. And repackage Rotundoaoaoa's fat kid. Their appearance was just a reminder that it's not a big PPV unless the Wyatts lose a feud.

I think we'll see Corbin, Joe, Balor and the Bullet Club tonight.

 

Does anyone really think the WWE is going get behind the Bullet Club concept? Rule thumb: if they didn't invent it, it sucks.

 

And I think we'll see see the beginning of the brand split with Shane taking over Smackdown over the next few weeks.

 

They have 8 full-time wrestlers and ratings are at historic lows. Are they going to make DDP and Shaq the stars of Smackdown?

 

The Shane thing was fun for the first night. I hope he goes back to China or Korea or whatever country Vince thinks he works in.

People overreact to match outcomes.

Who knows what happens the next few weeks.

 

 

My prediction: Reigns gets booed out of a lot of buildings.

 

Would you rather have had the non-wrestler beat the Undertaker in Hell in a Cell at WrestleMania?

That story isn't over. Don't assume status quo. Remember, the story was that Shane had dirt on Vince in a lock box. Something could still come of that.

 

I hope it's a contract. Because nothing makes me more excited than a McMahon family drama involving a contract. Shane needs to go away.

 

And no, I didn't want the non-wrestler beating Undertaker. I didn't want to see the match. The match should not have happened and was a waste of space and killed the show dead.

 

I don't think the fans knew why these two were fighting. And the crowd reaction to Shane's jump was along the lines of "We didn't actually need to see that....Christ, man, your children are here....."

 

WrestleMania was fun and had excellent wrestling.

 

Where was the excellent wrestling?

[justice98]

Shane's been gone for ten years and no one understands the booking behind that match.

The message of last night's show: We are are so sorry that it's not 1998.

Somehow, the WWE has convinced its roster that the highest achievement a wrestler can have is jobbing out to an old cripple who was once famous.

Give me a reason to watch any of these geeks tonight.

They like to have debuts the Raw after Mania. Could see Bullet Club, could see Samoa Joe, who knows.

I remember when I first saw Sting, back when he was with the UWF. He was paired with "Hot Stuff" Eddie Gilbert (I think Sting was supposed to be Gilbert's bodyguard as well as a wrestler). Gilbert was supposed to be "every woman's dream", and Sting "every man's nightmare". LOL!

I used to watch the UWF every Wed. at 6pm on Home Team Sports. Man. that was a long time ago.

Eddie Gilbert should be in the HoF, IMO.

I had read that he and Precious helps the needy. They're really good people from what I can tell.

As for Jimmy the wrestler. You're right, he should not have been inducted as a Freebird. But he did have his moment. I thought his GAB 87 cage match with Flair was a very good match.

I agree, but I heard him recently say that he felt he never had a particularly good match with Flair, which I thought was interesting.

[justice98]

People overreact to match outcomes.

Who knows what happens the next few weeks.

Would you rather have had the non-wrestler beat the Undertaker in Hell in a Cell at WrestleMania?

That story isn't over. Don't assume status quo. Remember, the story was that Shane had dirt on Vince in a lock box. Something could still come of that.

Sometimes I think wrestling fans are too "smart". You lose the fun parts and focus on what you hate.

WrestleMania was fun and had excellent wrestling.

*shrug*

Let's see what happens.

I suspect the lockbox was a throwaway line that they thought better of, since they've acted like it never happened. Because there's no reason to take a match with Undertaker when you have the lockbox. Somebody probably realized it didn't make sense.

But I actually think match outcomes and winning and losing actually is important. They've just conditioned people to think it shouldn't matter. They have a hard time creating stars, in part, because they don't think winning and losing matters. They make it that much harder on themselves.

I've kinda gotten over Taker as this unstoppable force of nature. To most, the idea of Shane beating Taker is utterly ridiculous. It wouldn't have been absurd to me. If Taker retired, I wouldn't be sad at his point.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I agree, but I heard him recently say that he felt he never had a particularly good match with Flair, which I thought was interesting.

 

In all honesty, Garvin never had a particularly good match. The stuff with Flair was as good as he got, because Flair could work around his limitations better than any of the Von Erichs or Wahoo.

[KDawg]

I just don't agree LKB.

I thought Styles vs. Jericho was a great match. Not sure why Jericho went over, but the match was fantastic.

Ambrose and Lesnar was a straight slug fest.

Reigns is going to get booed. Agreed. I don't understand what they're doing with him.

I think Shane has added a fun dynamic.

The women's title match was very good, although not spectacular.

I'll add: None of the matches topped Zayn/Nakamura.

I'll also add that I think Jericho, Reigns, LoN, Ryder, Lesnar going over were mistakes. But I want to see where it goes before I cry about it.

[justice98]

You are insane. No one watched that show. People survived that show. The match of the night was a 3-star woman's match.

They need to end the Wyatts. And repackage Rotundoaoaoa's fat kid. Their appearance was just a reminder that it's not a big PPV unless the Wyatts lose a feud.

Does anyone really think the WWE is going get behind the Bullet Club concept? Rule thumb: if they didn't invent it, it sucks.

The Shane thing was fun for the first night. I hope he goes back to China or Korea or whatever country Vince thinks he works in.

I don't think the fans knew why these two were fighting. And the crowd reaction to Shane's jump was along the lines of "We didn't actually need to see that....Christ, man, your children are here....."

I thought the ladder match was pretty good.

I wonder if the Bullet Club will get over even if they do get behind it. I'm skeptical. Their hype is way overdone, IMO. The smarks that follow Japan think they're cool, but I'm not convinced most people will find Anderson and Gallows to be cool. And the original concept was supposed to be about them being foreigners. What makes them special now?

It's amazing that most of the reaction to Shane's leap was concern for his wellbeing. Online last night, I saw so many people not wanting him to jump. Contrast that with the Attitude Era and the bloodlust was completely different. Rather "holy *$%#", last night, it was more "ok, Shane, you've made your point", followed by "is he ok?"

Edited April 4, 2016 by justice98

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I suspect the lockbox was a throwaway line that they thought better of, since they've acted like it never happened. Because there's no reason to take a match with Undertaker when you have the lockbox. Somebody probably realized it didn't make sense.

 

 

They might rediscover the lock box if they need a reason to keep this pointless story going. I'm still not sure what the story is though, and it seems like Vince won a victory in The War for Whatever It Was About.

 

Also, I thought the whole point was for Shane to takeover Raw, not the company. I also never really understood why Steph and HHH were not concerned with this storyline since, you know, their jobs were on the line and ****.

 

I mean, shouldn't the match have been Shane-HHH? Doesn't that make 1000 times more sense?

 

But I actually think match outcomes and winning and losing actually is important. They've just conditioned people to think it shouldn't matter. They have a hard time creating stars, in part, because they don't think winning and losing matters. They make it that much harder on themselves.

 

I agree 100 percent.

 

And I can prove it with 1 question: Who is Roman Reign's next opponent for the belt?

 

The easy answer is Brock, but it's almost planting season in the North Country so Brock is probably gone until SummerSlam.

 

Ambrose basically got squashed. Bray Wyatt is a jobber to the Stars. Rollins is out. Cena, I guess, is almost sorta back. Maybe.

 

I guess we get a rematch with HHH maybe.

[justice98]

They might rediscover the lock box if they need a reason to keep this pointless story going. I'm still not sure what the story is though, and it seems like Vince won a victory in The War for Whatever It Was About.

Also, I thought the whole point was for Shane to takeover Raw, not the company. I also never really understood why Steph and HHH were not concerned with this storyline since, you know, their jobs were on the line and ****.

I mean, shouldn't the match have been Shane-HHH? Doesn't that make 1000 times more sense?

Couldnt agree more. For the life of me, I did not understand why they didn't do Shane/HHH. That storyline writes itself, yet they trumped up a Taker angle that makes no sense. Steph was barely involved after the first week and HHH didn't care at all.

But I had people telling me that controlling RAW is essentially controlling the company, but that logic didn't fly with me. But that's essentially what they were doing. I recall on one of the RAWs, Byron Saxton kept slipping and saying "control of WWE" instead of "control of RAW". But Cole would follow after him saying RAW like he as correcting him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I thought the ladder match was pretty good.

 

 

It was okay for a spot-fest. I'm not a big fan of the ten dudes in a ring doing a bunch of spots matches. The outcome seems pointless since I have to assume that Owens is going to squash Ryder tonight.

 

The fundamental problem is that WWE has never figured out what to do with the smarky fans who now make up about 50 percent of their remaining fanbase. Online fans do like Ryder. They want Ryder to be something more than just a jobber.

 

But that doesn't mean just give him the IC belt at WrestleMania. I think most fans would have been happy with an 8 week winning streak followed by a loss in a title match at a PPV.

 

They don't tell stories any longer.

 

I wonder if the Bullet Club will get over even if they do get behind it. I'm skeptical. Their hype is way overdone, IMO. The smarks that follow Japan think they're cool, but I'm not convinced most people will find Anderson and Gallows to be cool. And the whole concept was supposed to be about foreigners. What makes them special now?

 

I actually think they had done a decent job with AJ until yesterday. I'm not sure why he needed to lose the feud to Jericho.

 

The big problem with the Bullet Club is - like you said - what are they in WWE? We're the dudes who wrestled in Japan, I guess.

 

The other problem is I don't think they are going to let AJ talk, and if he can't explain who these guys are, it makes no sense.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure they need yet another faction right now. The League of Nations and the Social Outcasts ain't exactly setting the world on fire. Creating another group of nobodies (in the fans eyes) means that we now have three groups of nobodies.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's amazing that most of the reaction to Shane's leap was concern for his wellbeing. Online later night, I saw so many people not wanting him to jump. Contrast that with the Attitude Era and the bloodlust was completely different. Rather "holy *$%#", later night, it was more "ok, Shane, you've made your point", followed by "is he ok?"

 

Post Benoit, post 10,000 stories and one movie on concussions, post watching Mick Foley try to walk down a ramp to a ring....it's not that much fun to watch guys potentially kill themselves.

 

I saw something on another board that made me go hmmmmm.....the emotionally great storyline is Shane going to the top of the cage, crossing himself and looking at his kids.......and then climbing down because control of a wrestling show is just not worth it.

 

I think you could have Taker go over to hit him and then realize what's going on. Vince comes down to protest and reminds Taker that if he loses, he's done. Taker tombstones Vince, announces his retirement in Texas, and maybe he, Austin, and Shane drink some beers over Vince's corpse. I mean, who enjoyed a heel Taker pinning a half dead Shane in order for all the storylines to remain intact?

 

And, no, I would not have come up with that storyline before the fact. It's all based on what I watched. But that's sort of the problem with the writers. They don't seem to have anyone like a Pat Patterson who can listen to their bull**** and say, "That's no good, eh. That won't make them people pop. Hey....you want to make them pop, eh? This is how we make them pop." (For some reason, my Pat Patterson impression makes him sound like an Italian from Thunder Bay).

Edited April 4, 2016 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[justice98]

I'm not sure they're gonna link Styles and Anderson/Gallows. I think they just might make them a tag team called Bullet Club (or whatever name they have rights for) and leave Styles on his own. And it doesn't seem like Balor's leaving NXT anytime soon.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm not sure they're gonna link Styles and Anderson/Gallows. I think they just might make them a tag team called Bullet Club (or whatever name they have rights for) and leave Styles on his own. And it doesn't seem like Balor's leaving NXT anytime soon.

 

If there's one way to get over in the modern WWE, it's by being a tag team.

 

They'll be jobbing to the Dudleys within a month.

[justice98]

Post Benoit, post 10,000 stories and one movie on concussions, post watching Mick Foley try to walk down a ramp to a ring....it's not that much fun to watch guys potentially kill themselves.

I saw something on another board that made me go hmmmmm.....the emotionally great storyline is Shane going to the top of the cage, crossing himself and looking at his kids.......and then climbing down because control of a wrestling show is just not worth it.

I think you could have Taker go over to hit him and then realize what's going on. Vince comes down to protest and reminds Taker that if he loses, he's done. Taker tombstones Vince, announces his retirement in Texas, and maybe he, Austin, and Shane drink some beers over Vince's corpse. I mean, who enjoyed a heel Taker pinning a half dead Shane in order for all the storylines to remain intact?

And, no, I would not have come up with that storyline before the fact. It's all based on what I watched. But that's sort of the problem with the writers. They don't seem to have anyone like a Pat Patterson who can listen to their bull**** and say, "That's no good, eh. That won't make them people pop. Hey....you want to make them pop, eh? This is how we make them pop." (For some reason, my Pat Patterson impression makes him sound like an Italian from Thunder Bay).

I actually would have had Stone Cold come out and stun Taker to give Shane the win and stick it to Mr. McMahon one last time. That would've been a palatable way to have Shane win. And it would've give Austin a more prominent spot on the show, which is what he probably should've had. I guess you couldn't have Shane and Austin stand tall at the end of the show though cuz Shane probably needed traction. lol

Edited April 4, 2016 by justice98

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I actually would have had Stone Cold come out and stun Taker to give Shane the win and stick it to Mr. McMahon one last time. That would've been a palatable way to have Shane win. And it would've give Austin a more prominent spot on the show, which is what he probably should've had. I guess you couldn't have Shane and Austin stand tall at the end of the show though cuz Shane probably needed traction. lol

 

Did you see Austin? It would have taken him ten minutes to get there and ten minutes to set up the stunner.

 

And then you feel bad that Taker lost at WM.

[bobandweave]

Bury Shane?

 

A 50 year old non-wrestler who hasn't been on tv in ten years?

 

Either you mean that literally or your don't actually know what "bury" means in wrestling terminology.

 

Yup literally for Shane. He could have died last night and for what?

 

As for Undertaker, sure he's old and for the past 25 years he's been the baddest dude on the planet but now he's Vince's ****? Why bury him on his way out the door for Vince like that? This just makes no sense since that was supposed to be about Legacy, so Undertakers legacy is Vince's ****. Got it, what a load of crap. I would have rather Undertaker laid down to a finger poke then win that match and have told Vince to stick it then what happened.

Edited April 4, 2016 by bobandweave

[bobandweave]

Post Benoit, post 10,000 stories and one movie on concussions, post watching Mick Foley try to walk down a ramp to a ring....it's not that much fun to watch guys potentially kill themselves.

 

I saw something on another board that made me go hmmmmm.....the emotionally great storyline is Shane going to the top of the cage, crossing himself and looking at his kids.......and then climbing down because control of a wrestling show is just not worth it.

 

I think you could have Taker go over to hit him and then realize what's going on. Vince comes down to protest and reminds Taker that if he loses, he's done. Taker tombstones Vince, announces his retirement in Texas, and maybe he, Austin, and Shane drink some beers over Vince's corpse. I mean, who enjoyed a heel Taker pinning a half dead Shane in order for all the storylines to remain intact?

 

And, no, I would not have come up with that storyline before the fact. It's all based on what I watched. But that's sort of the problem with the writers. They don't seem to have anyone like a Pat Patterson who can listen to their bull**** and say, "That's no good, eh. That won't make them people pop. Hey....you want to make them pop, eh? This is how we make them pop." (For some reason, my Pat Patterson impression makes him sound like an Italian from Thunder Bay).

 

I would have loved that ^^^

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Good to great matches. Trash/illogical finishes to nearly every one.

Forgettable WM but not the worst

People overreact to match outcomes.

Who knows what happens the next few weeks.

Would you rather have had the non-wrestler beat the Undertaker in Hell in a Cell at WrestleMania?

That story isn't over. Don't assume status quo. Remember, the story was that Shane had dirt on Vince in a lock box. Something could still come of that.

Sometimes I think wrestling fans are too "smart". You lose the fun parts and focus on what you hate.

WrestleMania was fun and had excellent wrestling.

*shrug*

Let's see what happens.

I agree with your last point 120% BUT that McMahon story is/was terrible.

The lockbox hasn't been mentioned for weeks because it's essentially been retconned.

Basically Shane was an emergency fill in and they Concocted a dumb story just for him to participate. HHH and Steph should have had a HUGE interest in that match. They should have been visually and verbally excited about Taker winning but they didn't even mention it. The story was fluff dude. You notice that at no point in the match did the announcers ever make mention of the RAW control angle?

Match wasn't bad tho

Edited April 4, 2016 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93