Brave Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Would love to hear some opinions about a situation I've recently become aware of with a close friend, whom I'll call John. Let's call his wife Jane. John has been married over 10 years. Two children. According to him, the marriage was not real strong, but there wasn't any serious thoughts of it ending, either. Just more of the lows than highs in recent years. A couple of months ago Jane mentioned a new friend at work (guy named Tony) about 8 years younger than her who had a live-in girlfriend pregnant with their first child. She told him they had started communicating by Instant Message and cell phone. All in fun. Tony was soon was transferred to a different store, yet they continued to communicate. John became somewhat suspicious, which is not in his nature. I've known him a long time and he's NEVER been jealous of anything having to do with his wife. He said something was making his "radar" ping like mad, so he started monitoring his computer with a keylogger and screen captures. He immediately learned the following: - The communications were almost daily. John found that his wife logged in to her IM program at almost every opportunity when he was away. They had also been text messaging each other, which she had specifically told him she had never done. - In the course of about a month, the conversations had very quickly progressed from friendly ... to flirtatious ... to sexual. Jane and Tony had professed their attraction for each other and their conversations were very exciting to both of them. (I've seen transcripts.) - Nothing physical had happened (yet). - Jane admitted feeling guilty ... but had also stated it was not something she couldn't handle. John is obviously hurt and angered by this. He has not yet confronted his wife and he's been asking about the proper course of action. He absolutely will not leave his children under any circumstances. My questions to you on this board, in your infinite wisdom: How serious an offense do you think this is? What course of action would you take were you in John's shoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I'd stop short of calling it adultery in the common sense, Brave, but there's no way it's not a breach of trust. Sucks for him that she's breached the marital trust, sucks for her that she felt she had to. No way for anyone but the two of them to know what the "real" circumstance of their relations is and how it got to this point ... and ultimately, no way for anyone but them to decide, together, if and how the trust can be recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stwasm Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 They need to talk to each other. If she felt the need to do this, there's a problem that needs to be addressed before the text messaging turns into a meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Om, I think you pretty much nailed it. I think the two of them need to seek counseling. They need to spice up their life together. What she and this guy are doing although seems innocent enough to them, it's the adrenaline rush, and the excitement they like. The fear of getting caught in the act. If he does not confront her soon about it, then it will go to the next step, and it's all bad from there. She will start to get hateful towards her husband. When he confronts her, he can't be confrontational about it. That will only make it worse. But they should definitely seek professional help. They need to think about their children over all else right now. edit - As for Jane thinking she can handle it...that's the cheaters phrase, and almost always, they can't. You have to be emotionally numb to be able to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanCollins Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 He should confront his wife immediately with the evidence and her choices to cease contact with tony or divorce. This is what people do who are getting ready to cheat. It's just as bad as the act itself. This also indicates that the marriage is not in good shape :obvious: and would require so counseling/work to turn around. This same thing happened to a freind of mine. Wife is from south america and emails were in spanish. He took copies to work and had his spanish co-worker read them (how embarassing is that?). contents were sexualy descriptive :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrilla4 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 It seems he is not providing any thrills in her life so she is going to try and seek out those events that give her a new rush. He views the marriage as stale and stable, and seems to be content with that. Obviously she is not. His main purpose it seems in the relationship is to stay for the kids. Main point if you dont want your wife trying to seek out something that is trying to make her feel good...then make her feel good yourself, or get ticked off when she does what she did. So its either to me john not giving his wife enough of what she needs or hes not doing that bad of a job and shes an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted May 16, 2006 Author Share Posted May 16, 2006 Thanks to all who have replied so far. John has admitted to me that his marriage suffered from poor communications from both he and Jane. He definately accepts his part of the blame in that regard. His problem deciding how to proceed is partly because he doesn't know if he wants to put in the work necessary to save his marriage only to have it return to the same sorry state it was in. I've told him if he's not leaving due to the kids, he may as well try to make the best of it with his wife. He's not so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HokieJ Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 It may not have gotten to the actual physical relationship yet, but it's heading in that direction quickly. That's the next logical step in the progression of events you listed. They need to seek some marriage counseling pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanCollins Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 He definately accepts his part of the blame in that regard. His problem deciding how to proceed is partly because he doesn't know if he wants to put in the work necessary to save his marriage only to have it return to the same sorry state it was in. His lack of dedication to the solution is the same as the problem :doh:. He would have to make himself somewhat vulnerable to try and save the marriage, which it sounds like he is reluctant to do. Could be an intamacey issue for John. He's only got about right now to change his way of looking at this/his problem, and move forward, before it's too far gone to save :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 om nailed it. anything that you aren't willing to share w/ your spouse is not good, and is either cheating or its' predecessors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I guarandamntee you its already reached physical. Your saying a couple of months lets say 15+ messages a day to not have a meeting. Its been too long to not have a kiss+ between the cellphone, messaging, text messaging.... its not human nature to do all of that without touching.... Its EXACTLY what happened to me with 2 kids (one 10months old other was 4...), and she said the EXACTLY same thing..... Which were all lies... psst... I'm single now even with trying to figure it out... If the other one isnt willing to try it doesnt matter what you do.... They got married 12 days after the divorce which was 1 year after the seperation, which was 2 months after I figured it out.... time fly's when you having fun... Edit: IF he wishes to stay married: He better work his ass off as he is now second in her affection and just the father of her children... AND i mean put 40hrs a week into it at a minumum because she's already moved on and the kids are probably the only think keeping her.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted May 16, 2006 Author Share Posted May 16, 2006 I'm sure it's no secret to disclose that I am John and my wife is Jane. The hypothetical talk is no longer necessary. Thiebear, I hear you, but I am almost certain that it hasn't gotten physical because I have been observing the transformation from friend to ... more. I find it hard to believe that, unaware that their conversations were being capturred, they did not mention a single meeting, physical event, etc. I've been watching this thing from the beginning. The problem with us began, ironically, when we had kids. We have become almost exclusively parents and partners in running the household ... but very rarely do we ever feel like a couple any more. For awhile I complained about this but it never lead to any fruitful discussion ... only arguments. Again, I know I've been a flawed husband. I recognize that. But she's been an equally (if not more) flawed wife and I've never turned outside the marriage. I'm really back and forth as to wondering if I can get past this. I won't say it's as BAD as if it had turned physical, but in my opinion it's nearly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 brave, i feel for you man, i do. i hope all turns out for the best, and if it is of any solace to you, what you're saying about having kids and becoming exclusively parents and partners in running the household serves as a reminder to us that are new parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted May 16, 2006 Author Share Posted May 16, 2006 brave, i feel for you man, i do.i hope all turns out for the best, and if it is of any solace to you, what you're saying about having kids and becoming exclusively parents and partners in running the household serves as a reminder to us that are new parents. Thanks. And yes ... it is an easy trap to fall into. Having kids are the best thing that ever happened to me. Being a good father has been by far the most important thing to me. Same can be said about my wife. I guess we,re suffering the consequences of taking that a step too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I'm sure it's no secret to disclose that I am John and my wife is Jane. The hypothetical talk is no longer necessary.Thiebear, I hear you, but I am almost certain that it hasn't gotten physical because I have been observing the transformation from friend to ... more. I find it hard to believe that, unaware that their conversations were being capturred, they did not mention a single meeting, physical event, etc. I've been watching this thing from the beginning. The problem with us began, ironically, when we had kids. We have become almost exclusively parents and partners in running the household ... but very rarely do we ever feel like a couple any more. For awhile I complained about this but it never lead to any fruitful discussion ... only arguments. Again, I know I've been a flawed husband. I recognize that. But she's been an equally (if not more) flawed wife and I've never turned outside the marriage. I'm really back and forth as to wondering if I can get past this. I won't say it's as BAD as if it had turned physical, but in my opinion it's nearly so. my gf and I talked about this when she was nearing the birth date. We discussed how we don't want to fall into that trap. Even if it's just a candle-lit dinner, or just get away for a night with your wife. Take her to a nice dinner, then to a nice hotel. Get away from the kids, remember what it was like before them. That's probably why she's looking around. You guys have to just get that old feeling back...the one that brought you two together in the first place. Good Luck to ya man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandaceM23 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Brave, I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine the pain that you must be feeling at this moment. Unfortunately, this is an emotional affair. Jane has become attached to another man and has sexual conversations with this other man, when they could have been had with you. I think that the only thing that you can do at this point in time is to tell her what you know. Don't be alarmed if she feels betrayed that you were spying on her. It's not going to be an easy conversation to be had. My suggestion is to go to counseling immediately. Counseling will help bring a lot of the issues to the table and it will allow you and Jane to talk in a controlled and mediated environment. Good luck with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 How serious an offense do you think this is?What course of action would you take were you in John's shoes? 1). Pretty serious in my eyes. Its not an affair in the traditional sense of the word. But she is emotionally involved on a level that has hurt her spouse. So, to me, that would make it an affair. 2). Marriage counseling. It works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Brave--assuming nothing physical has happened, as you've stated, the relationship is not beyond repair IMO. Trust has been broken on a certain level, but assuming their a mutual willingness to restore your interest with one another, you can move forward together. There are, at least, several approaches you can take: 1. Do nothing 2. Confront her 3. Start to court her again as you would a girlfriend (reestablish some romance) In respect to the first option, who knows where that may lead. And perhaps things will take care of themselves. Alternatively, she may move forward with Tony, leaving your relationship in far more dire straights that it currents is. As for the seconnd option, I would not mention to her that you have been using the keylogger or any of the other information that you've seen, as Jane can use this against you as vindicating her own feelings about her behavior. It's unfortunate that you are aware of it, but because of her potential argument, not that I'm saying it is, of "spying"--and the corresponding trust concerns that that raises, it might also lead to a major blowout. I should note that I don't agree with that argument, but it's an argument that I'm sure she'd make because it's far easier than just admitting that she was wrong. I would suggest that you raise your concerns, and talk about how important she is to you, and figure out a plan to move forward with one another or determine what the alternate next step is (perhaps with an intermediary). The third option is probably the most difficult--and the results of such a move may not yeild anything more than the others. But it may help to provide you and your wife with the attention that both of you need and that she's been looking for with Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madman_Mike Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 OK. Let the "expert" chime in... First off, let me say that I was recently "the other man" and one of my best friends recently got busted almost exactly the same way as your friends wife (he suspects his wife used a key logger). Both of our situations involved work romances. Between the two situations there are a couple of lessons to be learned. Let me start by getting some moral issues out of the way. I have always been against adultery. My problem is that I fell completely in love at first sight and swept off my feet in a way I never have been before. Also, let me make it clear that I counciled my friend that if his marriage was that bad he needed to handle that first before geting involved with somone else or it would end bad. And on a personal note, sometimes it is the "other person" who gets hurt. So... I can't really tell storys here, it's all too personal for me and I don't feel right airing my friend's dirty laundry on the board, but a few things I've learned from both experiences.... 1) Sometimes the marriage can get stronger. Under the right circumstances a situation like the one your friend finds himself in can be just the kick in the pants a couple needs. It all depends on how much they want to make things work and how willing they are to look at themselves as much as each other to find the cause of their problems. 2) Unfortunately the pain of finding your partner is involves with somone else can get in the way of #1. He's going to have to find out just how strong he is and how much he wants his marriage to work. 3) She needs to do the same. Your friend needs to confront his wife on some level soon or things WILL progress to the next level with her "friend". You can bet on it. If it were me, I wouldn't tell her how much I know (yet). I would give her a chance to get out of it on her own. I would tell her that I was not comfortable with the situation and make it clear that I suspect something. Then I would begin talking about what we could both do to help our marriage. Then I would keep an eye on that key logger and see what happens. If she breaks it off with him then they have a shot at fixing what is wrong and he will have the comfort of knowing that while she may have been tempted she did not act on it and she made the choice on her own. If she does not break it off things are going to get much worse, the marriage will be harder to fix, and he will have to confront her with everything he knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Brave, to protect yourself, make sure you save the information you've learned/gathered in a safe place that she can't access it. I know that doesn't sound nice, but if things unfortunately follow a more dire path, it will help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Brave, To me this is a very simple process for you. First, you approach Tony. You do it in public so no one can say you did anything untoward. And you do it quickly. You pull him to the side and inform him in a very calm, cool, easy voice, that he's done talking to your wife. That if he is ever in the same area as you, he needs to move quickly to get out of that area. You conveny a quiet seriousness in your threat without ever actually communicating a threat. You then call your wife on the cell and hand the phone to Tony. If he will not talk, you simply declare to her you're standing where you are, saying what you're saying. You make him declare they aren't talking anymore or you do it for him, in front of him, with your wife listening. As you walk away with her still on the phone, you tell her it's everything in you not to take everything from her stupid, selfish *****. You and the kids are going away for a father's kid weekend, because it would not be a safe home for them to be in given what SHE did and how angry you are with her. If you get back and feel better, you'll talk, she'll listen, and she'll adjust. If you don't feel better, you'll serve her papers and sue for custody so she can be the whore she apparently feels need to be. You'll have the kids call her if they mention it. And you do this all. Take the kids somewhere nice. Have fun. I doubt you'll ever have the problem again if you get back and want to continue with your wife. You don't need to go to any third party for help. You need to take control of your situation. You can accept your portion of the blame in the lack of heat in your marriage, and you can volunteer to try to improve in areas important to your wife. But, the line was crossed by her, not you, so, you utilize this moment to establish the order of things again and see if you aren't even a little lucky to use this to improve everything for a long time. You now know how close you are to losing her. If you're at all worried about that, only your ability to take control of the situation will allow it to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Art, Most of that was the worst advice ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madman_Mike Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Wow Brave, I'm at work and I was interupted mid-post so when I wrote my comments I did not know it was you. I'm so sorry. I hope you will take my comments to heart though. Seriously. Without telling her everything you know, I think you need to put enough presure on her to make her consider what she is doing. If she backs out at that point you will at least have that comfort of knowing she made that choice on her own. I know it's difficult but this can be an opportunity for you both to confront whatever has been giving you problems if you are both willing to work at it. The key word being "both". If she does not put the same effort into saving your marriage, you need to look out for yourself. If that happens, you need to tell yourself that you are going to be OK and not blame yourself. Good luck man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRS Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 How serious an offense do you think this is? Are you talking about wife's emotional cheating or husband's spying on her? Both are pretty serious signs that these people need to work on themselves, and on their relationship. What course of action would you take were you in John's shoes? I would have never ended up in his position. He made matters much, much worse by spying on her. Course of action - be a little kinder, a bit more compassionate to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenaa Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Sorry Brave. This is a tough thing. I believe it is not beyond repair. If you can remember how it was when things were good, focus on that as the goal. It may not seem worth the effort now, but in the long run, that which is most difficult to achieve is usually the most fulfilling. Stay positive and focus on a time when you can look back on this as a blip in the road. Not an easy thing to be sure, but if you focus on the negative, you guys will never recover. I'm conflicted on Ihearts take on confronting her. I think he is absolutely correct on how she will react, but she obviously gave you reason to be suspicious, and your suspicions were realized. I'd be truthful about it and not engage in the argument about your "spying" on her. Just apologize for finding it necessary and focus on the root of the problem. Human nature will be to focus on her actions. If you can communicate that you understand her actions are a symptom and not the cause, you might make it easier for her to admit her mistake. Otherwise she'll get defensive and focus on all the things "you" did to make her do this. I feel bad for you. A few words on a message board just can't do justice what you are and will be going through. As others have said, seek counseling. All marriages require work to maintain happiness. It doesn't come easy in any marriage. If you have it in you to make the comittment, you can make it work if she is willing. Good luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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