Is this adultery?

[JPM285181]

You people don't understand anything.

She IS dirt. She even KNOWS she is. But, she is feeling so low and uncared for in her heart she feels "he" (Brave) won't care anyway. ESPECIALLY if this hasn't gotten physical, a strong, bold, manly, heated, passionate response will get the resolution you seek. She wants to be loved. She doesn't feel that way in your ongoing relationship. Approaching her with compassion while addressing your flaws will only sicken her, whether she admits it immediately or not.

Ultimately she's testing what she still means to you. If she hasn't gotten physical, she's hoping you come rescue her and make her feel the passion again. And, passion comes in the form of anger for a while. It's ok to be so angry you can't even be around the person. It's ok to take control. You soft wimpy men offering contrary advice are getting cheated on all the time and you don't even probably know it. If you do, you blame yourself.

You blame yourself for mild problems in a relationship. You don't blame yourself when someone crosses THIS barrier. You take control, elminate this specific activity and all others like it. And I got cash says she'll be thankful you did.

Hey Art read OM's advice he is actually dead on about no one knows the dynamics of outside relationships Brave is just getting different perspectives. That being said there is a huge difference between being a wimp and trying to fix a marriage with 2 kids you adore involved.

[Prosperity]

wow this is a pretty heavy thread, I am not going to pretend I know what I am talking about, but Art's advice seems to be pretty good. At least you might feel better about yourself in the end.

Anyway good luck with the situation, and I didn't know so many other members here have had the same type of thing.

Advice I can give though is that your kids may not like growing up with divorced parents, should it come to that, but they would like it even less if you guys stayed with each other and always fought. That is why I was happy when my parents finally divorced.

[AlexRS]

You people don't understand anything.

She IS dirt. She even KNOWS she is. But, she is feeling so low and uncared for in her heart she feels "he" (Brave) won't care anyway. ESPECIALLY if this hasn't gotten physical, a strong, bold, manly, heated, passionate response will get the resolution you seek. She wants to be loved. She doesn't feel that way in your ongoing relationship. Approaching her with compassion while addressing your flaws will only sicken her, whether she admits it immediately or not.

Ultimately she's testing what she still means to you. If she hasn't gotten physical, she's hoping you come rescue her and make her feel the passion again. And, passion comes in the form of anger for a while. It's ok to be so angry you can't even be around the person. It's ok to take control. You soft wimpy men offering contrary advice are getting cheated on all the time and you don't even probably know it. If you do, you blame yourself.

You blame yourself for mild problems in a relationship. You don't blame yourself when someone crosses THIS barrier. You take control, elminate this specific activity and all others like it. And I got cash says she'll be thankful you did.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how would you rate your success so far at having deep, satisfying, long-term relationships with women?

[Art]

The reason I feel it necessary to confront Tony is that he needs to hear directly from me that this needs to stop. I do recognize that he is not the central issue, but I don't want to be possibly trying to work things out with my wife, if I choose to, and have him trying to reach her.

If things don't work out with us, I'll call him back personally and tell him he can have her.

You're right at the top. He needs to know. You're wrong at the bottom. HE NEVER gets your wife. Even if you don't work it out, he's done .

[Destino]

Destino,

If people can be manipulated, then how can one ever trust anybody with anything? I've spent a lot of time trying to reconsile this for myself and I believe I have.

Yes people can be weak. Yes people can be corruptible. But "can be" is not necessarily "are".

The difference between "can be" and "are" is is the story of mankind. The fight between good and evil. Temptation by the devil, whatever your theology would have you believe.

Accepting "can be" as "are" means giving up. It is the easy way out. It is the "everybody else is doing it" excuse people use to justify most horrible things.

It doesn't mean giving up it means being honest and admitting weakness. If you accept the fact that humans can be corrupted by people looking to do exactly that there are simple steps to avoid it. The easiest is not talking to people (especially those of the opposite sex that are oh so friendly) about your realtionship issues. Don't give them a chance to even involve themselves in what you are going through. You'd be surprised how many people take the opposite road and talk to everyone about every little problem thus opening the door for someone trying to cause problems.

[JPM285181]

Tony isn't the issue, but, approaching Tony and making sure he knows he's the only one of the two in the problem you are completely free to beat the hell out of is cathartic and helpful . There ARE fixable issues on both sides. And working on those is a good thing. I think I said he should do that. But, THAT comes AFTER you handle THIS. Now, the problem Brave may have is if Tony is a big manly man himself who might take the confrontation as a challenge and set his sights on the woman. At that point you have to take out a bat and cause pain and make sure you have a great friend who says you were with him all night.

How civil is Brave's wife being talking about how much she wants to screw another guy, teasing him, describing what she wants him to do to her. Is that civil?

That is not civil at all, I also find that unacceptable. I mean civil in the sense that COOLER HEADS PREVAIL rather it be in reconciliation or divorce court. If Braves wife wants to screw Tony then kicking his ass inside out wont change that fact it will only compound things and ultimately hurt him in whatever his marriages future holds.

[zoony]

On a scale from 1 to 10, how would you rate your success so far at having deep, satisfying, long-term relationships with women?

Relationships require respect.

You can't respect someone else unless you respect yourself.

I'm not speaking for Art... but I think what he's proposing is that Brave should pursue a course of action that is going to restore his self respect FIRST.

You CANNOT repair a relationship if one side doesn't respect another.

I'm not sure why many in here aren't seeing that :2cents:

....

[AlexRS]

It doesn't mean giving up it means being honest and admitting weakness. If you accept the fact that humans can be corrupted by people looking to do exactly that there are simple steps to avoid it. The easiest is not talking to people (especially those of the opposite sex that are oh so friendly) about your realtionship issues. Don't give them a chance to even involve themselves in what you are going through. You'd be surprised how many people take the opposite road and talk to everyone about every little problem thus opening the door for someone trying to cause problems.

This is my point exactly.

Outsiders have NO power over the relationship if both parties have a mutual understanding and agreement on this issue, and use simple steps to avoid it.

[AlexRS]

Relationships require respect.

You can't respect someone else unless you respect yourself.

I'm not speaking for Art... but I think what he's proposing is that Brave should pursue a course of action that is going to restore his self respect FIRST.

You CANNOT repair a relationship if one side doesn't respect another.

I'm not sure why many in here aren't seeing that :2cents:

....

I completely agree with this point.

Respecting yourself is very important.

Talking to people who are not important, getting angry, throwing things - these are all ways to direspect yourself.

Respecting yourself means not being a slave to your emotions.

[diesel22]

On a scale from 1 to 10, how would you rate your success so far at having deep, satisfying, long-term relationships with women?

I applauded his (Art) comment. And, from a personal perspective, I can tell you that everytime a relationship of mine has ended (save one) it has ended by my choice. Each time the female wanted to progress towards marriage and I backed away. Partly bc I am very selective and partly bc of stories like Brave's.

A man who absolutely refuses to be disrespected is a man who - in the long run - will gain true happiness in regards to his personal relationships.

[DCsportsfan53]

Brave, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. Bang and Thiebear, wow, it sounds like you guys went through hell with these kinds of situations. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to be able to advise you on this matter except to say that I think counseling would be a good idea if you do want to try and salvage the marriage. Most importantly, don't hold back. Make her know how you feel and what you expect in no uncertain terms, ambiguity will get you nowhere.

On a side note, this Tony guy is a worthless piece of human garbage. To willfully spend months attempting to seduce another man's wife (regardless of her willingness or unwillingness), knowing there are children involved, is just plain disgusting. Worst case scenario, the marriage can't continue and she ends up with this scumbag at least she'll probably be getting the kind of person she deserves for making that decision. :2cents:

[Art]

I think your wife needs top tell him to stop contacting her not you. If she doesnt make that decision then its not worth your aggravation.

Garbage. There are decisions a husband makes for his wife, just as there are decisions a wife makes for her husband. You get Tony to understand you know and you will do something about it. You get your wife to know the same. You get to tell your wife she's not associating with that person any more. You don't let her feel she's free to come up with any other solution. What's the matter with all the sad saps here? Your wife's wishes as it regards sir Tony here are irrelevant. YOU as the HUSBAND are ENDING that. She's not equal in this decision. In fact, she has no say at all.

Anyone that thinks in this there's some give and take and partnership is plain nuts.

[Major Harris]

Garbage. There are decisions a husband makes for his wife, just as there are decisions a wife makes for her husband. You get Tony to understand you know and you will do something about it. You get your wife to know the same. You get to tell your wife she's not associating with that person any more. You don't let her feel she's free to come up with any other solution. What's the matter with all the sad saps here? Your wife's wishes as it regards sir Tony here are irrelevant. YOU as the HUSBAND are ENDING that. She's not equal in this decision. In fact, she has no say at all.

Anyone that thinks in this there's some give and take and partnership is plain nuts.

my only take on that is that if i'm forcing my wife to be with me against her will, do i really want to be with her. outside of that, i'm with you on taking control of the situation.

[Zguy28]

Then again you could just turn into Prince CHarming overnight, send the kids to relatives for a week and come home one day and say "we're going to cancun tonight. Pack up." Sweep her off her feet and sever her contact with this jabroni. When you guys get back, don't let up; keep being "the man". Then go see Tony personally at his work and tell him loudly your gonna crack skulls if you see another IM from him to your wife. :2cents:

[Art]

Hey Art read OM's advice he is actually dead on about no one knows the dynamics of outside relationships Brave is just getting different perspectives. That being said there is a huge difference between being a wimp and trying to fix a marriage with 2 kids you adore involved.

Om is a nuanced, shades of gray guy. I know everything that's going on. There's a man. There's a woman. There's another man. This stuff isn't hard. There are no dynamics. Dynamics are how angry she gets with you when you watch the Redskins or how irritated she gets when you don't put the cap on the toothpaste. Understanding which of those is serious and which aren't forms a dynamic relationship. Here, a woman is either physically cheating or about to. Either way, she's opening the door for something she's no right to open the door for as a married woman. The man's job is to shut the door. Hard. That's the only dynamic at play here.

Something is wrong with men that you can't uniformly understand this doesn't require a thoughtful response. If you LOVE this person, the ONLY response possible is outrage and fury. That's the only manifestation possible. Anything else is garbage and anything else would precisely explain why you're getting cheated on in the first place. Because you're not man enough to keep her happy. That's not a sexual thing. It's not a physical thing. It's a thing EVERY woman knows in every relationship they are in. Brave's wife either doubts it or wonders about it.

The only way to save this is through love, which, requires a sense of betrayal and anger. Otherwise, there's no love at all.

[Art]

On a scale from 1 to 10, how would you rate your success so far at having deep, satisfying, long-term relationships with women?

Chief, I've been with my wife for 12 years. She was 18 when we met, officer . My wife is the queen of the roost. We have a child. We think she's pregnant again. Because I don't let myself be a doormat to her probably makes our relationship stronger and more healthy than any you've been in, where woman stay with you because you're a total non-threat and easy to manipulate. Trust me when I tell you, if you're in a relationship, your wife is getting nailed by 10 guys a year and loving it. My wife isn't. One of our wives would know what's wrong and what isn't. The other would assume you'll work through the problem if you ever cared enough to find out.

[Major Harris]

one thing i think brave WASN'T looking for was a fight in this thread. :doh:

[Art]

That is not civil at all, I also find that unacceptable. I mean civil in the sense that COOLER HEADS PREVAIL rather it be in reconciliation or divorce court. If Braves wife wants to screw Tony then kicking his ass inside out wont change that fact it will only compound things and ultimately hurt him in whatever his marriages future holds.

Dude, it's the COOL HEADS that have led to this. Only hot heads can save it. Cool heads leads someone to think it's boring. To seek release elsewhere. To get someone else's head pretty hot, if you know what I mean. If Brave plays this with love, which REQUIRES anger and a sense of outrage, in a couple of weeks, when he finally takes his wife physically again, she'll probably cry during because she'll be so happy to know he still loves and needs her.

[diesel22]

Garbage. There are decisions a husband makes for his wife, just as there are decisions a wife makes for her husband. You get Tony to understand you know and you will do something about it. You get your wife to know the same. You get to tell your wife she's not associating with that person any more. You don't let her feel she's free to come up with any other solution. What's the matter with all the sad saps here? Your wife's wishes as it regards sir Tony here are irrelevant. YOU as the HUSBAND are ENDING that. She's not equal in this decision. In fact, she has no say at all.

Anyone that thinks in this there's some give and take and partnership is plain nuts.

Your 1st post I was totally on board with. This one, not so much....

I understand where you are coming from but there is something you have to remember. At this point, the ball is really in Brave's court. He needs to decide if this woman is worth another try or not. (I think most of you know what I would do -- she'd be out on her ass -- but that is me). Now, in order for him to decide if she is worth it -- it is imperative for her to prove that she deserves another shot. To do this, she must personally end this affair and make it clear that no future breaches of trust will occur.

It does the marriage no good at all for the husband to be the one who tries to end this affair. This is true for two reasons. 1) She needs to be the one to do it in order to start to regain his trust. 2) It is very comparable to raising kids in this sense. You can try to personally make certain that your daughter doesn't see the "bad boy" down the block. But - and especially if there is already an atraction there -- your overbearing tendencies will only push her to find even more inventive ways to get around your safeguards and regulations....

Confront her about it. If you choose to give her a chance, let her end the affair. And let her know in no uncertain terms that building back trust will not be easy -- and that if she slips up again that there won't be a 3rd strike.....

As an end, let me mention that the only complicating factor for me would be the kids. If I was married with no kids and this happened -- the only way she would be able to communicate with me ever again would be through my lawyer.

[JPM285181]

Garbage. There are decisions a husband makes for his wife, just as there are decisions a wife makes for her husband. You get Tony to understand you know and you will do something about it. You get your wife to know the same. You get to tell your wife she's not associating with that person any more. You don't let her feel she's free to come up with any other solution. What's the matter with all the sad saps here? Your wife's wishes as it regards sir Tony here are irrelevant. YOU as the HUSBAND are ENDING that. She's not equal in this decision. In fact, she has no say at all.

Anyone that thinks in this there's some give and take and partnership is plain nuts.

You can force the issue all you want Art but what you cant do is go into her head and change what she desires,wants,fantasizes about, etc............. Do you see the difference? If the marriage is to saved (If thats even what they want) then the wife has to end the relationship with the weasel. All the threats and ass - kicking in the world WONT change what goes on in the wifes head. I agree that you tell the wife that the relationship with Tony is over or the 2 of you are but she needs to end it or it wont end. That is the simple truth like it or not.

[AlexRS]

Chief, I've been with my wife for 12 years. She was 18 when we met, officer . My wife is the queen of the roost. We have a child. We think she's pregnant again. .

Congratulations!

Because I don't let myself be a doormat to her probably makes our relationship stronger and more healthy than any you've been in, where woman stay with you because you're a total non-threat and easy to manipulate. Trust me when I tell you, if you're in a relationship, your wife is getting nailed by 10 guys a year and loving it. My wife isn't.

This is uncalled for.

I hope you do not treat your family with such cruelty.

[JPM285181]

Your 1st post I was totally on board with. This one, not so much....

I understand where you are coming from but there is something you have to remember. At this point, the ball is really in Brave's court. He needs to decide if this woman is worth another try or not. (I think most of you know what I would do -- she'd be out on her ass -- but that is me). Now, in order for him to decide if she is worth it -- it is imperative for her to prove that she deserves another shot. To do this, she must personally end this affair and make it clear that no future breaches of trust will occur.

It does the marriage no good at all for the husband to be the one who tries to end this affair. This is true for two reasons. 1) She needs to be the one to do it in order to start to regain his trust. 2) It is very comparable to raising kids in this sense. You can try to personally make certain that your daughter doesn't see the "bad boy" down the block. But - and especially if there is already an atraction there -- your overbearing tendencies will only push her to find even more inventive ways to get around your safeguards and regulations....

Confront her about it. If you choose to give her a chance, let her end the affair. And let her know in no uncertain terms that building back trust will not be easy -- and that if she slips up again that there won't be a 3rd strike.....

As an end, let me mention that the only complicating factor for me would be the kids. If I was married with no kids and this happened -- the only way she would be able to communicate with me ever again would be through my lawyer.

I couldnt agree more!!

[RiggoReincarnated]

I agree with Art on this one. If I caught some guy making moves on my girl I'd beat the **** out of him and then confront her and let her know the scumbag was taken care of, then proceed to have wild unabandoned sex.

[Big Weirdo]

one thing i think brave WASN'T looking for was a fight in this thread. :doh:

Well not necessarily. He gets to see which works better. Cooler heads or hotter heads.

[Art]

Your 1st post I was totally on board with. This one, not so much....

I understand where you are coming from but there is something you have to remember. At this point, the ball is really in Brave's court. He needs to decide if this woman is worth another try or not. (I think most of you know what I would do -- she'd be out on her ass -- but that is me). Now, in order for him to decide if she is worth it -- it is imperative for her to prove that she deserves another shot. To do this, she must personally end this affair and make it clear that no future breaches of trust will occur.

It does the marriage no good at all for the husband to be the one who tries to end this affair. This is true for two reasons. 1) She needs to be the one to do it in order to start to regain his trust. 2) It is very comparable to raising kids in this sense. You can try to personally make certain that your daughter doesn't see the "bad boy" down the block. But - and especially if there is already an atraction there -- your overbearing tendencies will only push her to find even more inventive ways to get around your safeguards and regulations....

Confront her about it. If you choose to give her a chance, let her end the affair. And let her know in no uncertain terms that building back trust will not be easy -- and that if she slips up again that there won't be a 3rd strike.....

As an end, let me mention that the only complicating factor for me would be the kids. If I was married with no kids and this happened -- the only way she would be able to communicate with me ever again would be through my lawyer.

There's nothing overbearing about telling your wife, "Dear, you know that guy you told you wanted to **** and do all that stuff to? Well, you're not talking to him anymore." She started the affair. She doesn't have the power or persuasion to end it. Only intervention by the one person who can, CAN. She chose to do the most vial thing possible, which is to betray the intimacy exclusive for a married couple. Her choices in THIS area do not get treated equally. "Well, ok, you're right. I won't talk to him again, but he is a friend. I'd like to stay in touch." No. No. No. That person died to this woman. And it doesn't matter if she agrees. Here you TAKE. You do not "let her decide". Deciding is after you dictate the terms of how she will conduct herself in these areas in the future, offering to address whatever core issues she may have after, but, you NEVER waiver on the first. YOU are in control of the first.