Why do so many illegal immigrants believe....

[The 12th Commandment]

Here's a hot button issue huh. Living here on one of the largest border towns in America, I can tell you that illegal immigration is out of hand. I'm no big fan of the minutemen or anything, but just because you walked across the border into the US doesnt mean that you are entitled to benifits in the US.

I have many friends that are legal immigrants, some that came over illegally at first. One guy in particular, my former supply sergeant, ran across the border illegally in the mid 90's, figured he should do the right thing, and decided to join the army. About 6 months ago I swore him in as a naturalized US citizen. I couldnt have been prouder of him. What gets me are the people that think a blanket immunity should be granted for anyone that came across illegally. Thats just wrong!

Welcome neighbor. This common sense approach, I think is shared by most of us that live on the border and have a regular interaction with Mexican immigrants. Most are stand up people.

As a I said before, we need to change the mechanisms for legal entry as you too suggest. Until then, I agree we need to crack down.

It seems to me the question is - Do we spend buku money to build a wall and beef up seciurity that we wont' need if we change the immigration policies?

Or, do we wait to see if changes can be passed by the legislature before spending this money?

Don't you think most people would cross legally, instead of using the coyotes if they could. You and I know how harsh these deserts are and how dispicabely the coyotes treat the immigrants. If that is the case then the needs for security ought to go down significantly since we're only looking for a small number of what we know are bad guys.

[DjTj]

I have many friends that are legal immigrants, some that came over illegally at first. One guy in particular, my former supply sergeant, ran across the border illegally in the mid 90's, figured he should do the right thing, and decided to join the army. About 6 months ago I swore him in as a naturalized US citizen. I couldnt have been prouder of him. What gets me are the people that think a blanket immunity should be granted for anyone that came across illegally. Thats just wrong!

How did your supply sergeant join the army without legal status?

...It was probably INA 245(i), which was passed in 1994 and criticized at the time as an "amnesty" for undocumented immigrants. That provision allowed any undocumented immigrant who had a sponsor to adjust to legal status if he paid a $1,000 fee.

That law actually has expired since Bush took office, so now there's no way for someone who snuck across the border to ever legalize their status. If your army sergeant entered the US after 2001, there would be no way for him to ever become a citizen (unless he left the country for 10 years then came back with legal status).

Also, to everyone trying to tell immigrants that they don't have a right to protest, let me ask: Does Tony Blair have a right to give political speeches when he is in the U.S.?

The right to free speech isn't restricted to citizens. The First Amendment doesn't use the word "citizen" anywhere. The Fourteenth Amendment reads: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The Constitution drew a clear line between privileges (and immunities) and rights (of life, liberty, property). Although that part of the 14th Amendment isn't really enforced anymore, an example of a privilege would be voting or running for office, which is restricted to citizens. Free speech, like other rights in the Bill of Rights, is a liberty interest, and is thus granted by the Constitution to any person, not only to citizens.

[PokerPacker]

The right to free speech isn't restricted to citizens. The First Amendment doesn't use the word "citizen" anywhere. The Fourteenth Amendment reads: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

you might want to re-read your quote. here, let me underline a word for you (that you even bolded)

[DjTj]

you might want to re-read your quote. here, let me underline a word for you (that you even bolded)

Did you even read my post?

The Constitution drew a clear line between privileges (and immunities) and rights (of life, liberty, property). Although that part of the 14th Amendment isn't really enforced anymore, an example of a privilege would be voting or running for office, which is restricted to citizens. Free speech, like other rights in the Bill of Rights, is a liberty interest, and is thus granted by the Constitution to any person, not only to citizens.

There is difference between privileges, like voting, which are guaranteed to citizens only, and rights, like free speech, which are guaranteed to everyone.

[Bad Man Burgendy & Gold]

Rights are NOT earned. Rights are NOT given. Rights are not country specific. Rights exist because men exist.

That's right, most of yall sound like heartless ****s. Immigrants do not take wages away from American's they do jobs we don't want to do.

[skinfan133]

What the hells wrong with you people? They're coming here for the same reasons your relatives came to this country the only difference is nowadays you can just get your name changed from mombuto to mo slapped on the ass and admitted.

i work closely with missions work in guatemala, i speak broken spanish but have a good understanding of the languge, and i have come into contact with alot of ilegals in the united states, and alot of workers in central america who would make te journey temselves, ad i can asure te overwheliming majority DO NOT come fr the same reasons as our ancestors did (im irish, potato famine if 1663 is my reason for being american). the majority of migrant wokers have no real disire to become american, they want american money to send back home, i actually asked a painter who did some work in my house and he said in spanish tha he actualy doesn care about america, jus the money he can send back home. and yes tha is te majority outlook, the protesters arent mad that they with new laws they wont get citizenship, they're mad that they wont have work or money to send back home.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

i work closely with missions work in guatemala, i speak broken spanish but have a good understanding of the languge, and i have come into contact with alot of ilegals in the united states, and alot of workers in central america who would make te journey temselves, ad i can asure te overwheliming majority DO NOT come fr the same reasons as our ancestors did (im irish, potato famine if 1663 is my reason for being american). the majority of migrant wokers have no real disire to become american, they want american money to send back home, i actually asked a painter who did some work in my house and he said in spanish tha he actualy doesn care about america, jus the money he can send back home. and yes tha is te majority outlook, the protesters arent mad that they with new laws they wont get citizenship, they're mad that they wont have work or money to send back home.

BINGO!!!!

That's exactly the problem. These people do NOT have an interest in becoming AMERICANS. They want to be mexicans, dominicans, puerto ricans, etc... who work in the United States and send a LARGE amount of the money they make back out of the United States, to the countries that they DO hold an affinity for. That's why they have no interest in learning English, or acclimating to American culture.

So far as I'm concerned, we need to secure the ENTIRETY of the American border with mexico. I think a couple of Divisions of Uncle Sam's Murderous Children should have enough chuzpah and firepower to secure a walled fortification along that border.

[skinfan133]

BINGO!!!!

That's exactly the problem. These people do NOT have an interest in becoming AMERICANS. They want to be mexicans, dominicans, puerto ricans, etc... who work in the United States and send a LARGE amount of the money they make back out of the United States, to the countries that they DO hold an affinity for. That's why they have no interest in learning English, or acclimating to American culture.

So far as I'm concerned, we need to secure the ENTIRETY of the American border with mexico. I think a couple of Divisions of Uncle Sam's Murderous Children should have enough chuzpah and firepower to secure a walled fortification along that border.

alittle bit extreme, but i would advocate a wall, and a better interview and visa grant process so the ones who do want to be americans can come in and the wrong guys stay out

[Fergasun]

We need tightened borders and workplace enforcement for 5-10 years, and THEN we shall see if we need a Guest Worker Program.

The open borders crowd is illogical. What happens when it's as easy for an African, Asian or European person to enter into our country illegally? There are only a limited resources in America... yet you are willing to allow people to come in illegally and drain those resources that we could be used to make America better?

If people want to live in a better place, they should change where they live and change their country. Think of how reformed Mexico would become if we sent 11 million people back there who actually have some more money now.

I agree with any effort to increase legal immigration, but if we do that wouldn't it just make another class of illegal immigrants? Just because these workers get the protection they desire, doesn't mean the companies will hire the "Guest Workers"... why not keep hiring illegals?

That's why we need tightened borders and workplace enforcement for 5-10 years, and THEN we shall see if we need a Guest Worker Program.

[The 12th Commandment]

BINGO!!!!

That's exactly the problem. These people do NOT have an interest in becoming AMERICANS. They want to be mexicans, dominicans, puerto ricans, etc... who work in the United States and send a LARGE amount of the money they make back out of the United States, to the countries that they DO hold an affinity for. That's why they have no interest in learning English, or acclimating to American culture.

So far as I'm concerned, we need to secure the ENTIRETY of the American border with mexico. I think a couple of Divisions of Uncle Sam's Murderous Children should have enough chuzpah and firepower to secure a walled fortification along that border.

Not true in my experience. I know family after family of recent legal immigrants whose children are as american as you and I. They are my buddies in many cases. Some of their folks send money back to relatives because it is the right thing to do to help out their family members. Because they are good human beings who work hard. Do those sound like traits you wouldn't want in a fellow american? First and maybe second generations send money back and it falls off significantly after that, at least from what I've seen.

By making some of these immigrants criminals (by virtue of an ineffective immigration policy) we force them to operate in a criminal manner. Criminals should be treated this way, but the law should be changed so that these people aren't criminals.

I don't know that that is an answer to the ones who already entered illegally though. They shouldn't just be granted amnesty IMO. There are just so many that it makes any other method very difficult and expensive.

[AJ_Skins]

Rights are NOT earned. Rights are NOT given. Rights are not country specific. Rights exist because men exist.

Philosophically speaking, this is true. The people who founded this country believed that "...all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..." and that governments should be instituted "of, by and for the people" for the purpose of guaranteeing those rights.

The foundation of the security of those rights, however, is the rule of law. When laws are violated, the entire system of laws and the government itself are undermined. A government that cannot or will not enforce its own laws is doomed.

[skinfan133]

Philosophically speaking, this is true. The people who founded this country believed that "...all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..." and that governments should be instituted "of, by and for the people" for the purpose of guaranteeing those rights.

The foundation of the security of those rights, however, is the rule of law. When laws are violated, the entire system of laws and the government itself are undermined. A government that cannot or will not enforce its own laws is doomed.

i recognize the last part of your response, benjamin franklin if im not correct? he had some famous quote along those lines.

[AJ_Skins]

Nice.

What to do when you eventually come to your senses and see that it won't work, after spending countless million, if not billions on a wasted effort to keep out good people that will make this country stronger?

Good thing the folks who had your opinion during the other periods of large immigration in our country didn't hold sway. Chances are you and I wouldn't be here.

I see family after family of recent immigrants. I went to school with their children, I see them in my office every day coming to pay their taxes, like good americans. They may not speak perfect English, but believe me they understand the rule of law in this country and appreciate the hell out of it. They are in awe that they can come in government office and get treated with respect and dignity. Their kids turn into regular english speaking Americans for the most part, just like ours. Some of my best friends are first generation born here. Thye are college graduates, NFL fans and all around stand up folks with good jobs who don't know the first thing about soccer. If that doesn't make em good Americans, I don't know what does.

Are there exceptions, of course. But I could show you the local indictment records and most of the people in there are american citizens and the racial profiles match, more or less, the breakdown in race of our local population.

The dishonesty on this side of the argument always comes in ignoring the distinction between legal and illegal immigration. If you're going to ignore that, you can't expect to convince anyone of your position.

[PokerPacker]

Did you even read my post?

There is difference between privileges, like voting, which are guaranteed to citizens only, and rights, like free speech, which are guaranteed to everyone.

you said that the first amendment does not use there word citizen in it. i just wanted to point the fallicy in that statement, not your arguement. didn't mean to start a war here

[The 12th Commandment]

The dishonesty on this side of the argument always comes in ignoring the distinction between legal and illegal immigration. If you're going to ignore that, you can't expect to convince anyone of your position.

I think if you read my other posts here you see that I can and do make that distinction. And it is a valid one. The ones who are currently here illegally should be dealt with with some severity. But more importantly something should be done to allow more to come over legally so that we can concentrate on identifying the immigrants and other illegal entrants, who will be a problem. That would be my point.

[AJ_Skins]

The current immigration rules are so restrictive and confining that they deserve to be ignored

That's an interesting point of view. Do you think, for example, that companies who feel that way about environmental regulations should be free to ignore them?

[AJ_Skins]

I think if you read my other posts here you see that I can and do make that distinction. And it is a valid one. The ones who are currently here illegally should be dealt with with some severity. But more importantly something should be done to allow more to come over legally so that we can concentrate on identifying the immigrants and other illegal entrants, who will be a problem. That would be my point.

Obviously, that's what President Bush wants to do. I think some form of guest worker program is probably acceptable, but it has to be carefully thought out.

[AJ_Skins]

How much have you travelled around the world? If you have travelled, then you'd know that there are MANY people who have no specific desire to go to America. Then there are some who would like to get out of where they are, maybe, but don't rate America much higher than a lot of other places. When travelling in Germany, I didn't get any impression of what you speak, and yet, when travelling around the US, I've heard that exact sentiment; that the only thing keeping the world from coming here is our immigration limits and laws. It's just plain innacurate. Interestingly, the particular person who was most adamant about that sentiment had (self-admittedly, and without prodding) admitted he had never been out of the Huntsville area.

There are a great many people in the world who recognize the attitude you present here, and resent it. You did display it very succinctly, and for that I suppose I could commend you.

Clearly, the elitist snobs in Europe with their cradle-to-grave, soon-to-be-bankrupt nanny states built on plundered wealth are not as likely to want to come here as those from less priveleged countries. If that's your only point of reference, your viewpoint may be skewed.

[The 12th Commandment]

Obviously, that's what President Bush wants to do. I think some form of guest worker program is probably acceptable, but it has to be carefully thought out.

I'll give Bush props for his stand here. It has taken a little fortitude to keep up his front. I hope he sticks with it. One of few areas where I agree with him I'll admit, but he's right.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

I'll give Bush props for his stand here. It has taken a little fortitude to keep up his front. I hope he sticks with it. One of few areas where I agree with him I'll admit, but he's right.

I concur with this. I think most of this nonsense is the same backlash that occurs whenever a large immigration wave occurs. This wall thing is just about the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

[FlyinO]

When people say that illegals will do jobs that Americans won't, they are repeating a lie that is pro-illegal propaganda. Somehow this myth got started. The truth is they will do jobs at a lower price than any American.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Not true in my experience. I know family after family of recent legal immigrants whose children are as american as you and I. They are my buddies in many cases. Some of their folks send money back to relatives because it is the right thing to do to help out their family members. Because they are good human beings who work hard. Do those sound like traits you wouldn't want in a fellow american? First and maybe second generations send money back and it falls off significantly after that, at least from what I've seen.

We're talking about ILLEGAL immigrants, not legal ones. I have personal issues with some of the legal immigrants, but that's for another day and another thread. Sorry that "good human beings" line doesn't work on me. I am completely against American money (public or private) going to support foreign nationals. Personally, in my mind anyone who is wasting their money on other people in stead of spending it on their own needs and wants needs major psychiatric assistance.

By making some of these immigrants criminals (by virtue of an ineffective immigration policy) we force them to operate in a criminal manner. Criminals should be treated this way, but the law should be changed so that these people aren't criminals.

NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!! WE don't make them criminal. THEY MAKE THEMSELVES CRIMINAL!!!!! They do that by failing to use the system. Personally, not only should these people be criminalized, it needs to be a high-level felony.

I don't know that that is an answer to the ones who already entered illegally though. They shouldn't just be granted amnesty IMO. There are just so many that it makes any other method very difficult and expensive.

Not only shouldn't they be granted amnesty... they should not be allowed to re-enter the country LEGALLY after they're caught and deported. If any of them resist arrest for purposes of deportation it should be a "Shoot First, Shoot Second, Don't bother asking questions" policy.

[AJ_Skins]

The bottom line is, America's good will is being taken advantage of, which is a common occurance on the part of people who are basically just con artists running a scam for their own benefit. You can apply that equally to the illegal immigrants and to the companies that hire them. The law has to be enforced first and foremost, and other considerations have to follow from that predicate.

[DCRunner]

i work closely with missions work in guatemala, i speak broken spanish but have a good understanding of the languge, and i have come into contact with alot of ilegals in the united states, and alot of workers in central america who would make te journey temselves, ad i can asure te overwheliming majority DO NOT come fr the same reasons as our ancestors did (im irish, potato famine if 1663 is my reason for being american). the majority of migrant wokers have no real disire to become american, they want american money to send back home, i actually asked a painter who did some work in my house and he said in spanish tha he actualy doesn care about america, jus the money he can send back home. and yes tha is te majority outlook, the protesters arent mad that they with new laws they wont get citizenship, they're mad that they wont have work or money to send back home.

The reason for many, if not most, immigrants coming to this country has been for a better life for themselves and their families. I doubt that the goal of becoming a U.S. citizen was foremost in their minds - unless that was the better path to their primary goal. It's always in some way been about making more money - and there's nothing wrong with that. Lots of immigrants didn't become citizens. Some not becoming citizens (or even learning the English language) until events made it a wise move - e.g., the Italians and Germans during WWII.

The Emigrant Savings Bank in NYC (the oldest savings bank in NYC) was founded in the mid 19th century by Irish immigrants FOR immigrants, primarily Irish immigrants, so they could more easily transfer money to their families back in Ireland. Sending money back home is nothing new and not limited to any specific nationality. And it certainly shouldn't be used as a rationale to deny newer immigrants their chance to come or stay here.

It's not necessary to overromanticize the immigrant motivation for those who chose to come to America in the past. The end result of massive immigration to this country has clearly been for the benefit and enrichment of this country. In almost every conceivable way.

I fail to grasp the anger at "illegal immigration" since there is nothing intrinsically evil or even harmful about it. Certainly it's technically illegal but only because we have made it so - unlike crimes that are clearly immoral or harmful to others on their face such as murder or thievery. Immigration is, and always has been, a good thing for this country and we should be finding ways to make it easier for those who want to come here - no matter what their nationality, race or financial means or connections.

[AJ_Skins]

I fail to grasp the anger at "illegal immigration" since there is nothing intrinsically evil or even harmful about it. Certainly it's technically illegal but only because we have made it so - unlike crimes that are clearly immoral or harmful to others on their face such as murder or thievery.

I ask you the same question I asked earlier, just out of curiosity. Would you have the same view about companies who feel environmental regulations are ridiculous and overly burdensome?

In my opinion, people involved in perpetuating illegal immigration, whether it be the illegals, the companies hiring them, or the Democratic Party, are committing theft, on a number of levels, but more importantly, they are undermining our entire sysytem of government. In some cases, particularly the far left and the extremist hispanic organizations, they are doing so knowingly and intentionally.

Immigration is, and always has been, a good thing for this country and we should be finding ways to make it easier for those who want to come here - no matter what their nationality, race or financial means or connections.

I would support your position of "making it easier" if you agreed that laws should be enforced. As it is, you're just taking the side of non-US citizens against the people of the United States who have put those laws in place.