Why do so many illegal immigrants believe....

[The 12th Commandment]

"We're talking about ILLEGAL immigrants, not legal ones. I have personal issues with some of the legal immigrants, but that's for another day and another thread. Sorry that "good human beings" line doesn't work on me. I am completely against American money (public or private) going to support foreign nationals."

It's their money once they've earned to do with as they please. Sending it to relatives who need it regardless of where they live is a good thing.

"NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!! WE don't make them criminal. THEY MAKE THEMSELVES CRIMINAL!!!!! They do that by failing to use the system. Personally, not only should these people be criminalized, it needs to be a high-level felony."

As I said, there is a distinction. Although I think it is much less agregious than you, they are criminals and should be dealt with as such. The system though, is sorely in need of change so that the decent people who want to immigrate legally can. It would make the most sense economically, morally and pragmatically.

[Larry]

that they have some unearned right to come to this country? Over 500,000 protestors recently marched in Los Angeles demanding that Congress stop its attempts to enforce the law and scrap ideas about building more walls around the border. Why do we even allow illegals to have a voice at all in this country? Everyone deserves a better life, but not at the expense of others. They need to stand up to their own corrupt governments, and make their lives better for themselves. America should help them in this endeavor.

Please, someone tell me why America should open up their arms for these people.

They have done nothing but hurt wage-earners for the profit of a few.

Um,

1) Your assumption that the protestors were illegal immigrants, while it's not a completely unreasonable assumption, is still an assumption.

Just as it's possible to oppose the War in Iraq and still be an American, it's possible to oppose this law and still be American, too.

(Although, I've gotta admit, there's something funny about mass protests against a government's attempt to make something that's illegal, illegal.)

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I fail to grasp the anger at "illegal immigration" since there is nothing intrinsically evil or even harmful about it. Certainly it's technically illegal but only because we have made it so - unlike crimes that are clearly immoral or harmful to others on their face such as murder or thievery. Immigration is, and always has been, a good thing for this country and we should be finding ways to make it easier for those who want to come here - no matter what their nationality, race or financial means or connections.

First off, as you point out... IT'S ILLEGAL!!!! There really doesn't even need to be anything more than that for those of us who actually believe in the concepts of Law & Order.

I would disagree there's nothing intrinsically evil or harmful about it. These are people who are stealing money, jobs and other opportunities from people who are here LEGALLY.

LEGAL immigration is a good thing. So long as the people coming to America legally are here to be AMERICANS. If they're coming here to be irish-Americans, african-Americans, aexican-Americans, etc... then I don't want them here. If they're coming here to be TAKING from America instead of ADDING to it, I don't want them here. We're not a melting-pot anymore. We have a distinctive AMERICAN CULTURE and if you don't want to buy into it, keep out of this country. We don't need you.

[AJ_Skins]

It's their money once they've earned to do with as they please. Sending it to relatives who need it regardless of where they live is a good thing.

I think he's talking about tax dollars going to social services that are being taken advantage of by illegal immigrants. The drain on government programs caused by illegal immigration is substantial.

[FlyinO]

Um,

1) Your assumption that the protestors were illegal immigrants, while it's not a completely unreasonable assumption, is still an assumption.

No, that was your assumption. I knew the crowd was mixed with illegal and legal citizens. Reading comprehension is at an all time low in this country.

[The 12th Commandment]

I think he's talking about tax dollars going to social services that are being taken advantage of by illegal immigrants.

I didn't get that sense at all. The specific reference to "private" dollars going out of the country would lead me to think otherwise. Tax dollars being used for illegals is a whole nother issue for sure.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

It's their money once they've earned to do with as they please. Sending it to relatives who need it regardless of where they live is a good thing.

Let me get this straight.... You'd be all for Iraqi of Afghani immigrants here in the US earning money and sending it back "HOME" to be used by the insurgent groups in those countries to purchase the munitions to KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS?!?!?!?!?!

If you're going to come to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and get the benefits of being an AMERICAN, you better be ready to cut ties with the country you came from. If you're not, they I don't believe we should be letting you off the plane or boat.

As I said, there is a distinction. Although I think it is much less agregious than you, they are criminals and should be dealt with as such. The system though, is sorely in need of change so that the decent people who want to immigrate legally can. It would make the most sense economically, morally and pragmatically.

I agree the system is greatly in need of change. I just don't think the changes you want are the same as the changes I want.

[Bad Man Burgendy & Gold]

God bless America, and America only. This seems to be the line you people support

[Mass_SkinsFan]

God bless America, and America only.

That works for me. Sounds like one heck of a campaign slogan, if you ask me.

[PokerPacker]

God bless America, and America only. This seems to be the line you people support

well, i'm born and raised in america and never left the country, so it works for me!

[DjTj]

you said that the first amendment does not use there word citizen in it. i just wanted to point the fallicy in that statement, not your arguement. didn't mean to start a war here

I was quoting the Fourteenth Amendment, which makes a distinction between citizens and people.

The First Amendment reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The word citizen isn't in there - it talks about the right of the people.

The Fourteenth Amendment reads: No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The word citizen is in there, but so is the word person, and while it restricts certain privileges to citizens, it reserves rights to persons.

The point is that immigrants have as much right to protest as anyone. If we're going to let Tony Blair or Vicente Fox into the United States to give speeches, I think it's pretty clear that citizenship doesn't matter as far as the right to free speech.

[The 12th Commandment]

Let me get this straight.... You'd be all for Iraqi of Afghani immigrants here in the US earning money and sending it back "HOME" to be used by the insurgent groups in those countries to purchase the munitions to KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS?!?!?!?!?!

If you're going to come to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and get the benefits of being an AMERICAN, you better be ready to cut ties with the country you came from. If you're not, they I don't believe we should be letting you off the plane or boat.QUOTE]

Maybe I'm seeing a distinction here that you're not. Sending money home to help support hungry family members in Mexico is very different than sending money to the middle east to support terrorists. I have different views on those entirely different issues.

[hands11]

that they have some unearned right to come to this country? Over 500,000 protesters recently marched in Los Angeles demanding that Congress stop its attempts to enforce the law and scrap ideas about building more walls around the border. Why do we even allow illegals to have a voice at all in this country? Everyone deserves a better life, but not at the expense of others. They need to stand up to their own corrupt governments, and make their lives better for themselves. America should help them in this endeavor.

Please, someone tell me why America should open up their arms for these people.

They have done nothing but hurt wage-earners for the profit of a few.

I agree. And it said that even the right wing Bushies wont even stand up because they want the votes. The business people want the cheep labor.

The law is the law. They are here illegally. If we need to change the immigration laws because we want certain people here then do that. Change the legal immagration laws. But to do anything but lock these people up and kick them out of the country will only encourage more to break the law. I for one think if we would just arm our borders and shoot a few as the tried to come in, that alone would stop them from trying. The cost of stopping illegal immigration is huge. I hear one Govenor was actually back charging Mexico. Good for him.

Immigration is fine but it has to happen at a slow enough pace at to allow them to be Americans. I for one a sick of press one for English. If we just let everyone come here that wants, they would just turn this country into that which they left.

This isn't 200 years ago. We have settled the west. We need to know who is here. If you come here to drop a kid, that kid should also be illegal.

So for any of you that read my post in the other forum, see I'm not a leftie at all.

[hands11]

Let me get this straight.... You'd be all for Iraqi of Afghani immigrants here in the US earning money and sending it back "HOME" to be used by the insurgent groups in those countries to purchase the munitions to KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS?!?!?!?!?!

If you're going to come to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and get the benefits of being an AMERICAN, you better be ready to cut ties with the country you came from. If you're not, they I don't believe we should be letting you off the plane or boat.QUOTE]

Maybe I'm seeing a distinction here that you're not. Sending money home to help support hungry family members in Mexico is very different than sending money to the middle east to support terrorists. I have different views on those entirely different issues.

True. Immigration of today is much different then before. The immigrants of yesteryear were mostly from Europe. We all basically had the same type of religion, etc. Sure there were differences, but not like the differences of the Middle East. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they are all bad people. I know some really nice middle Eastern people but if this is the great melting pot then we need to allow things to melt. Some metals melt together easier then others.

We are trying to mix to many religion and cultures together to quickly and I fear we will loss our way in doing so and we will become more like them then them like us. Its a race to the bottom more then a lifting up. Look at what happening even to educated suburban kids. We need to slow this process down.

[DjTj]

Let me get this straight.... You'd be all for Iraqi of Afghani immigrants here in the US earning money and sending it back "HOME" to be used by the insurgent groups in those countries to purchase the munitions to KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS?!?!?!?!?!

If you're going to come to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and get the benefits of being an AMERICAN, you better be ready to cut ties with the country you came from. If you're not, they I don't believe we should be letting you off the plane or boat.

I'd like to point out that this is illegal under anti-terrorism laws. If American-born citizens send money to Iraq or Afghanistan to be used to kill American soldiers, they will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It doesn't matter what you look like - funding terrorism is illegal. In any case, I seriously doubt that Mexican immigrants are funding terrorism at any higher rate than Americans.

...and I'd also like to chime in on skinsfan13's point about people coming here simply to make money. I think that's completely accurate, and that's why President Bush proposed a temporary guest worker program. There are employers in the United States that need temporary workers, and there are workers in other countries that want to do the work. Instead of creating a market for immigrant smuggling, we might as well make all these people register and let them do the work that we want them to do.

In every wave of immigration, some people end up going back to their country of origin while others become Americans. We have different stages of immigration that reflect that: temporary visas, legal permanent residency, and then citizenship - it is not an all-or-nothing process, and people have always had the freedom to choose one way or the other. My parents didn't really intend to stay in this country when they first came, but their schooling took a little longer than they expected, they had kids, and now they've lived in the United States for most of their lives, as citizens for a majority of those years.

The oath of loyalty comes at citizenship, after immigrants have become somewhat assimilated and after they know what America's all about. The funny thing is that my parents had to take that oath, but as an American-born citizen, I never did.

[FlyinO]

The word citizen isn't in there - it talks about the right of the people.

of the people=people of the United States. Weakest and most juvenile twisting of words yet in this thread.

[hands11]

I was quoting the Fourteenth Amendment, which makes a distinction between citizens and people.

The First Amendment reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The word citizen isn't in there - it talks about the right of the people.

The Fourteenth Amendment reads: No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The word citizen is in there, but so is the word person, and while it restricts certain privileges to citizens, it reserves rights to persons.

The point is that immigrants have as much right to protest as anyone. If we're going to let Tony Blair or Vicente Fox into the United States to give speeches, I think it's pretty clear that citizenship doesn't matter as far as the right to free speech.

sure they can protest, but they can also be arrested and kicked out of the country for being here illegally. The wouldn't be arrested for the lawful assembly, they would be arrested because they are illegally here. They should have rounded them all up, checked their statue and resent them back if they were here illegally.

This all cost a lot of money. Our money. So what are we going to do to keep this from happening. It best to stop it at the boarder as much a possible. We need to protect our borders anyway. We need to bite to bullet and have the fed pay the states to clean it up and then do better moving forward.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Maybe I'm seeing a distinction here that you're not. Sending money home to help support hungry family members in Mexico is very different than sending money to the middle east to support terrorists. I have different views on those entirely different issues.

I don't see a distinction at all. It's all money going out of the American economy to foreign nationals in a foreign country. Whether it's buying AK-47's and C-4 explosives or paying for burritos in Mexico City, there's no difference in my mind. If you want to come here to live, work, and support the AMERICAN economy, fine. If you're coming here to live, work and support some foreign economy, please go home. We don't need you.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I'd like to point out that this is illegal under anti-terrorism laws. If American-born citizens send money to Iraq or Afghanistan to be used to kill American soldiers, they will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It doesn't matter what you look like - funding terrorism is illegal. In any case, I seriously doubt that Mexican immigrants are funding terrorism at any higher rate than Americans.

True. Unfortunately we haven't expanded those laws to include sending ANY monies earned here in the United States to other countries for ANY reason. Both on a private AND a governmental level.

[The 12th Commandment]

I don't see a distinction at all. It's all money going out of the American economy to foreign nationals in a foreign country. Whether it's buying AK-47's and C-4 explosives or paying for burritos in Mexico City, there's no difference in my mind. If you want to come here to live, work, and support the AMERICAN economy, fine. If you're coming here to live, work and support some foreign economy, please go home. We don't need you.

Your premise is full of execptions and unrealistic suppositions. Our stock market, our economic system as a country is dependant on foreign investment and trade with other countries. Why should that apply to us as a nation and not as individuals? To say it should is nationalism taken a bit far IMO.

Edit: I suppose you answered this in the previous post.

[D'Pablo]

Cases for illegal immigrants:

-Make up the majority of our service/agrarian industry work force

-Taxed on their purchases and sometimes their labor, which is unaccounted for revenue for our local, state, and federal governments

-Numerous cultural contributions (who doesn't like Mexican and Chinese food?)

Cases against illegal immigrants

-Marginally use state provided services such as welfare and medicaid (although most fear deportation and thus avoid the government all together)

-Contribute to crime (parents overworked and unable to tend to children; due to illegal status, forced into illegal economic sphere [drug dealing, money laundering, etc], and so on...)

[D'Pablo]

Illegal Immigrants contribute a lot to the private sector with their production (more production = more tax revenue for state). My guess is that these gains more than offset the costs incurred by the government supporting illegals. These people also contribute by way of taxes, too, with every purchase they make going toward the state sales tax.

If you really want to get rid of illegals... Start punishing the large corporate farms and restaurants that hire them cheap. If there were no market for illegal immigrants, there would be no illegal immigrants. You simply can't blame a person for wanting the best for him/herself and his/her family.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

If you really want to get rid of illegals... Start punishing the large corporate farms and restaurants that hire them cheap. If there were no market for illegal immigrants' date=' there would be no illegal immigrants.[/quote']

That's why I'm for a system where employers would be required to have a valid SSN for EVERY employee on the books. Those books should be checked on a yearly basis by the local/state authorities. Companies that were not in compliance would be shut down, permanently. No second chance. No fine. Shut down. PERMANENTLY.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Lots of different threads in this topic; I just want to address the "rights of the people" vs. "privileges/immunities of the citizen" distinction.

As a former Green Card holder (now naturalized citizen), I can completely corroborate DjTj's statements. A permanent resident of the USA is entitled to all the rights enumerated in the Constitution, including free speech, peaceable assembly, no self-incrimination and that sort of thing. What I didn't have was the "right" to vote (a privilege of citizenship) or the ability to run for political office. I did have a driver's license and Social Security number. I even had to register for the Selective Service.

[DjTj]

of the people=people of the United States. Weakest and most juvenile twisting of words yet in this thread.

So weak and juvenile in fact, that the Supreme Court of the United States agreed with me in 1982, 1953, 1896, and 1886.

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0457_0202_ZS.html

http://www.justia.us/us/345/206/

http://www.justia.us/us/163/228/

http://www.justia.us/us/118/356/case.html

Can the immigrant protesters be deported? Yes, if you know for a fact they are illegal immigrants (according to the Supreme Court in 1999 - http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-1252.ZS.html), but you have to give them a hearing and you have to prove they are illegal.

However, legal immigrants have the same rights as citizens (as pointed out by AtB), and illegal immigrants can't be arrested or punished solely because you don't like what they're saying - you would need to prove that they are illegal immigrants and then deport them.