If these cartoon riots came here to the US...

[skinstzar]

I don't know if you saw the 60 Minutes piece on them last night, but a lot of the problems are due to one cleric in Denmark going to the MidEast and instigating--totally and completely unapologetically. Was the Denmark artist wrong for depicting the prophet with a bomb? Yes--that was really offensive--but was this cleric incredibly irresponsible in the manner in which he publicized the picture? Absolutely.

Granted, all of the makings of something like this were in the works, but what that cleric did only has made things worse.

As far as whether I'd bust some heads? Probably not, but the rioting does really piss me off for as much as shows that these people are angry it also reveals that they have no ownership over any property or country and that they all view themselves as Muslim before anything else. That's scary--especially when you think about how that devolve into some kind of world war.

I disagree with some of what you said. The artist was irresponsible but he was in no way wrong. Denmark values its freedom of speech much like we do. He had the right to express his ideas. I agree with you completely that the Cleric is to blame. This supposed man of higher conscience and enlighten disregards completely the fundamental basis of his religion. That is the first problem. You team this ridiculous behavior with some bored students whose minds are impressionable and you will inevitably end up with rioting.

As for the question about cracking skulls if this started to take place in America, near where I live? I would endorse any means necessary to quell the riots. Yes even death to those who insight it. Many parts of this country, especially inner city Washington DC have still never fully recovered from the riots of the 50's and 60's. Many of the neighborhoods in DC have so much potential but have never been remunerated since the riots. If we allow groups to break the barriers of peaceful protest then we have a huge problem. I would also feel threatened and begin to worry about the safety of my family and friends should this happen. Rioting is the ugliest form of public behavior there is and should never be tolerated in any way.

I don't care who you are or what you believe but if you bring harm to the person or property of a citizen in a free country, you deserve whatever you have coming too you.

[iheartskins]

iheart, you specifically pointed out the actions of one person and used that as an explanation for the actions of the masses.

Precisely what I am tired of seeing and hearing.

Let's call a spade a spade.

But trying to say the cartoonists bears ANY responsibility, whether directly or indirectly, is crazy.

It wasnt wrong, it wasnt bad. It was a freaking cartoon.

You're missing the point again. Show me how and/or where I used the actions of one individual to excuse the decision of the masses? What I did do is state what one man did and the effect that his actions had. I never said that the reaction was justified--only pointed out that, ceteris paribus, had the Danish Cleric not gone to Middle East, this particular rash of violence would not have happened in the way it did. Might it have happened in some other way? Maybe--but did his instigation make the situation better? Did it help resolve the growing breach of trust and growing sense of disenfranchisement that much of the Mulsim world feels, however justified or unjustified they may be in that belief? No.

Let's go through the order of events as described on 60 Minutes one more time:

1. Artist draws picture of Important Muslim Prophet with Bomb as head. Clearly this action is protected. I don't blame this person.

2. Newpaper decides to publish it, which is allowed in the furtherance of free speech and is clearly their right. However, might a little self censorship have been smart at this stage? Yes. Would you throw a match on a bunch of dry alfalfa just to see if it would burn your house down? Probably not. But the paper was clearly allowed to do it.

3. Instigating Cleric from Denmark--who's a firebrand who actually introduced the comic in question to the Arab world (and this world had no knowledge of the cartoon as per 60 Minutes last night) and continually instigates the Muslims in the MidEast to build their anger at the cartoon. I blame this guy for not only throwing the match on the dried alfalfa, but for also, taking a fan and putting it right next to the fire for weeks on end to see how much it would grow. This guy is specifically responsible for the distribution of the cartoon in the Arab world.

4. Am I angry, furious even, at some of the Muslims who destroy private property with no regret and usually no reason--especially as a response to a stupid cartoon? Yes! Of course! It drives me crazy--especially because there's never any retribution and we are paralyzed from reacting to their lawlessness. That whole phenomenom is outrageous.

Now, given what I've written, now for the third time, that much of this Arab world doesn't have a sense of ownership or citizenship in a society (illustrated by their disregard of others property rights, etc.), how would you act with these people? Would you badger them with the fact that you can, and will, publish (to them) very offensive material or would you try to instill in them a sense of ownership and citizenship such that they feel like their views have a piece of the puzzle such that they no longer demolish things because they too have a vested intest in the property rights that everyone elses agrees to abide by?

I don't support any of the offensive religious art. I agree that it's all protected, but that doesn't mean I support it. If the Arab World (and Iran in paritcular) wasn't so militantly opposed to the "West" and Iran wasn't ready to start nuclear war, which, ultimately would be bad for everyone, then I'd say let's push the boundaries. But until then, as imperfect of a solution it might be, it makes sense to bring people into the fold so that they begin to value the same things. If people don't value the same things, it make negotiation difficult or impossible--which, in turn, raises the potential for conflict which also isn't good for anyone.

[iheartskins]

Just to play DA, though Iheart, I think the same has been said about the Jewish people.

That might be true of some of the Hassid, but it's not true of the vast majority of the reform or conservative (and even many Orthodox) people in the U.S. So when the vast, vast majority of Jews fall into the former categories, then I think that statement loses a lot of its validity.

[Renegade7]

I'll laugh watching the news as all the rioters get mowed by the latest in non-lethal riot control technology. I love the news.

[Kilmer17]

By simply introducing one cleric, you have tried to explain the actions of all.

Im not doubting this one cleric had SOMETHING to do with the violence and protests, but by singling out just one, it gives the appearance of excusing the actions of all but him.

Further, your asserion that the cartoonist was "wrong" leads to more excuses.

The same cries were heard after 9/11. The "what did we do to deserve this" mentality.

This is a simple question to answer. Why are hundreds of thousands of people violently protesting?

Because they are hateful, intollerant, violent beings.

It's really that simple.

[zoony]

That might be true of some of the Hassid, but it's not true of the vast majority of the reform or conservative (and even many Orthodox) people in the U.S. So when the vast, vast majority of Jews fall into the former categories, then I think that statement loses a lot of its validity.

Oh I'm not saying it is valid, not at all. I'm just saying that many have said it thru-out history, most notably Hitler.

More than anything I was looking for someone to jump up and say why that logic applies against Muslims but does not against Jews/Catholics, etc.

I think it does... I just can't justify it.

.

[webnarc]

First, if it turned violent, I would hope that the INS would swoop in and determine the citizenry of everyone there. anyone not a citizen gets a plane ride to the nearest arab ****hole......tonight. Everyone else goes to jail.

But of course, that'll never happen.

Might offeeeeend someone ya know

Might hurt someone's feeeeelings

ANd of course you'd have to deal with the ACLU taking you to court

Actually, if it turned violent the cops would lay the smack down hard. That's one of the things that is right with the US, say what you like but touch other peoples stuff and enjoy a broken face.

[iheartskins]

By simply introducing one cleric, you have tried to explain the actions of all.

Im not doubting this one cleric had SOMETHING to do with the violence and protests, but by singling out just one, it gives the appearance of excusing the actions of all but him.

Further, your asserion that the cartoonist was "wrong" leads to more excuses.

The same cries were heard after 9/11. The "what did we do to deserve this" mentality.

This is a simple question to answer. Why are hundreds of thousands of people violently protesting?

Because they are hateful, intollerant, violent beings.

It's really that simple.

Are my posts in Japanese or Mandarin or something? Can you really be reading the same things I'm writing?

Let me ask you a question, do you beleive in catalysts?

[iheartskins]

Oh I'm not saying it is valid, not at all. I'm just saying that many have said it thru-out history, most notably Hitler.

More than anything I was looking for someone to jump up and say why that logic applies against Muslims but does not against Jews/Catholics, etc.

I think it does... I just can't justify it.

.

I'm sure there's a large Muslim majority (?) that doesn't beleive in and/or agree with the violence that's going on...I just haven't heard from them. And that's kind of frightening in it's own way--the moderates have lost their voice--which doesn't bode well for a lot of things.

[21KO]

It's high time people stopped trying to explain and excuse the actions of this violent, hateful, barbaric group.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Chopper Dave]

This is a simple question to answer. Why are hundreds of thousands of people violently protesting?

Because they are hateful, intollerant, violent beings.

It's really that simple.

That's an ignorant thing to say. Just because you don't understand that kind of mentality doesn't mean you can just make blanket statements like that.

In their mind, they're not doing anything wrong. I'm not excusing it, but what you're saying implies that they're knowingly doing wrong, and that's just not true.

The cartoonist and the various European newspapers to publish the cartoons after they were retracted in Denmark, on the other hand, either knowingly put something out there that they knew would cause a reaction like this, or are just plain stupid.

[Kilmer17]

That's an ignorant thing to say. Just because you don't understand that kind of mentality doesn't mean you can just make blanket statements like that.

In their mind, they're not doing anything wrong. I'm not excusing it, but what you're saying implies that they're knowingly doing wrong, and that's just not true.

The same excuses can be used to dismiss the actions of Hitler, Stalin, the KKK, Pol Pot, Mao etc.

I DO understand their mentality Dave. It's a shame so many people continue to try and excuse the behavior or twist their mentality into something acceptable by the rest of society.

[Kilmer17]

Are my posts in Japanese or Mandarin or something? Can you really be reading the same things I'm writing?

Let me ask you a question, do you beleive in catalysts?

Not sure if that was the intention of the post, but that was certainly the way they came across.

[Chopper Dave]

The same excuses can be used to dismiss the actions of Hitler, Stalin, the KKK, Pol Pot, Mao etc.

I DO understand their mentality Dave. It's a shame so many people continue to try and excuse the behavior or twist their mentality into something acceptable by the rest of society.

Kilmer, you're doing the same thing with me that you're doing with iheart. You're making things up, and putting words in our mouth.

The only thing I'm dismissing is your ignorant view of world culture. I explicitly said that their not believing it's wrong doesn't excuse it, but you imply that I did.

Just another instance of you debating for the sole purpose of appearing to be correct. Who are you trying to trick, Kilmer?

[iheartskins]

Kilmer here's the thing.

You are saying:

1. The people are hateful, scornful pricks

I am saying:

1. If we know these people are pricks, why are we going to piss them off more?

They aren't justified to hate us. Nearly all Americans have done nothing to hurt any Muslims. There's no way that there is any justification for that behavior at all--but what I am saying is given what we know about them, why would we do something that's just going to get them more angry? Why don't we do something that will diffuse the situation that doesn't prevent us from losing any of our liberties?

[HSW]

Would you take the day off from work to go bust some of these fool's heads in?

Or at least go protest right back at them?

If these cartoon riots came here, I know I wouldn't stand for it, and it'd be time to fight fire with fire.

:security::redpunch::finger::redpunch:

Actions speak louder than words....what have you done for your

country in the war on terrorism? If ya ain't done jack then

you don't have any buisness coming on here saying what you

would do if this and that happened. Any tool can say what

he would do on a message board.

[iheartskins]

Not sure if that was the intention of the post, but that was certainly the way they came across.

What needs to be explained, and you didn't answer my question.

You're not a stupid guy; you are, however, being a contrarian which is annoying.

[Chopper Dave]

Kilmer here's the thing.

You are saying:

1. The people are hateful, scornful pricks

I am saying:

1. If we know these people are pricks, why are we going to piss them off more?

They aren't justified to hate us. Nearly all American have done nothing to hurt any Muslims. There's no way that there is any justification for that behavior at all--but what I am saying is given what we know about them, why would we do something that's just going to get them more angry? Why don't we do something that will diffuse the situation that doesn't prevent us from losing any of our liberties?

Precisely. The people reacting are wrong. Sure. Knowingly eliciting that reaction is wrong, too.

[Kilmer17]

If you arent excusing it Dave, what are you doing?

[stevenaa]

I'm sure there's a large Muslim majority (?) that doesn't beleive in and/or agree with the violence that's going on...I just haven't heard from them. And that's kind of frightening in it's own way--the moderates have lost their voice--which doesn't bode well for a lot of things.

And this is the point that gets to me. They haven't lost their voice, they have yet to use it. That is the problem. The great moderate Muslim majority that is constantly pointed to when someone makes the point Islam isn't a violent religion seems to be non existent. Maybe it isn't that they don't agree with the radicals and are afraid to stand up to them. Maybe they agree but are afraid to overtly support them. Being silent is just as bad, IMO.

[Chopper Dave]

If you arent excusing it Dave, what are you doing?

Blaming the publishers, too. A reason isn't an excuse, it's just a reason. The publishers knowingly gave them a reason to riot. They rioted. Both are to blame.

[PleaseBlitz]

The same excuses can be used to dismiss the actions of Hitler, Stalin, the KKK, Pol Pot, Mao etc.

I DO understand their mentality Dave. It's a shame so many people continue to try and excuse the behavior or twist their mentality into something acceptable by the rest of society.

#1, i agree with you position on this issue Kilmer. The actions of these people is vile and hateful.

BUT, please dont assume that you understand the mentality of either a large group of people, or individuals that have lived under the regime of a brutal dictator, then had their country invaded my a foriegn army, then are living through the embrionic stages of democracy, which they probably dont understand, who live a zillion miles away, grew up in a different culture than you, speak a different language, live in completely different circumstances, and form their opinions through experience and not through the spin-doctored media outlets of this country, whether it be CNN on the left, or Fox on the right.

[Kilmer17]

Kilmer here's the thing.

You are saying:

1. The people are hateful, scornful pricks

I am saying:

1. If we know these people are pricks, why are we going to piss them off more?

They aren't justified to hate us. Nearly all Americans have done nothing to hurt any Muslims. There's no way that there is any justification for that behavior at all--but what I am saying is given what we know about them, why would we do something that's just going to get them more angry? Why don't we do something that will diffuse the situation that doesn't prevent us from losing any of our liberties?

Why do people burn the flag? Why do people make fun of Christians?

I just happen to be completely tired of walking on eggshells around a violent hateful group.

F@#k em. If they really want the war, we should give it to them.

[Kilmer17]

Blaming the publishers, too. A reason isn't an excuse, it's just a reason. The publishers knowingly gave them a reason to riot. They rioted. Both are to blame.

Actually, I agree with you. I think if ANYONE bears blame and responsibility in addition to the vermin, it's the publishers.

But certainly not the artist.

[Kilmer17]

#1, i agree with you position on this issue Kilmer. The actions of these people is vile and hateful.

BUT, please dont assume that you understand the mentality of either a large group of people, or individuals that have lived under the regime of a brutal dictator, then had their country invaded my a foriegn army, then are living through the embrionic stages of democracy, which they probably dont understand, who live a zillion miles away, grew up in a different culture than you, speak a different language, live in completely different circumstances, and form their opinions through experience and not through the spin-doctored media outlets of this country, whether it be CNN on the left, or Fox on the right.

I just dont think one needs to be an film critic to know a crappy film when he sees it.