Brenden Stai file: be afraid

[OrangeSkin]

Beggars can't be choosers. Stai is a definite upgrade and will improve our O-line immensely. That's the bottom line.

If we get Stai, we'll see who plays better this year. Him or 600 year old Ray Brown, who'll probably tank 2 games into the season (ala Bruce Matthews, who completely sucked this past year).

If Ray Brown was better EARLIER in his career, I don't really give a damn. Stai is better than Brown and more than a one year stopgap, which we seem to have every frakin' year.

[Yomar]

Ray Brown is garbage...calling him a Pro Bowler last year is like calling Armstead a Pro Bowler last year...while technically true, you wouldn't know it by their performance. The difference is that Ray Brown is just plain old, Armstead is still relatively young and was just playing hurt.

Further, the big prob with the OLine was the run blocking, not the pass blocking, so I'd rather have Stai anyway...I'm not doing cartwheels or anything, but its a solid pickup, 'nuff said.

Ray Brown....:doh:

[Art]

My worries about Stai are less now than they were after watching the two preseason games. I also thought Jones was supposed to be looking sloppy on the left side and Tucker was holding his own. After the Panther game, I'd start Jones in a heart beat and put Stai on the right due to Tucker's pretty rough game.

Stai is insurance more than anything. Jones may be forced to start the season on the bench as a backup tackle because he's got great value there for us. But, if he's outside, Stai is better than Vickers at this point. If the team decides to put Jones at left guard, our line would be very solid indeed, though, the team may not due to his quality ability to fill in for either Samuels or Jansen.

The Carolina game was a great performance for Jones. A lot less movement than you saw with Tre Johnson, but similar push and inline strength on most plays. Encouraging to say the least.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

Oh this keeps getting better and better...:shootinth

"Stai is under contract through 2005 and the Redskins apparently would assume his current deal. It includes base salaries of $750,000 (for 2002), $1.2 million (2003), $1.5 million (2004) and $1.82 million (2005)."

Because Stai is signed to a multi-year contract (with SB paid by Detroit), the Redskins are not eligible for a salary cap rebate available for players signed for the minimum. So Stai counts $750,000 against the current cap, versus Ray Brown's cap cost of $450,000. Stai then becomes increasingly costly (possibly beyond his worth) in future years.

Though Stai has an admirable streak in starting games, his recent history of being dumped by four different teams may be the more salient fact. (Detroit was his fourth team in less than one year. Detroit signed him to a five-year contract, then jetisoned him to the Redskins after one year in which the offense gave up 54 sacks in a quick-passing WCO attack.) Particularly troubling is that Jacksonville traded a 4th round pick for him in August 2000, only to release him less than a year later.

The mostly likely explanation for his recent travels is a sudden decline in his productivity after five years largely as a starter for the Steelers. Similar to Ryan Leaf or other once highly rated players, Stai has been given fresh starts by teams who expected productivity they saw in his Steelers years.

It is of course possible that the right fresh start will return Stai to the level of his early reputation. However, his pattern of being dumped by four teams in the past two years makes optimism difficult. Nonetheless, he is possibly better than any guard currently on the roster, so can be considered an upgrade. As a Nebraska product, he is likely a strong power run blocker.

The main problem with Stai is not the player (who is likely an upgrade), but the missed opportunities. We could have gotten Ray Brown without a trade and for substantially less cap hit. We could have traded Ramsey for a #2 and Gandy. We could have drafted a guard or traded for other young guards. Instead, what we have is a costly player (in terms of dollars and trade expense) who may be in decline, whose salary will quickly become prohibitive after this season. Either his decline or his salary will likely force the acquisition of a new guard in the offseason, unless Stai suddenly finds a second wind on this team and proves he is worth his future salaries.

It's not all Kim Helton's fault. Snyder should have executed the Ramsey trade. Had he done so, Gandy would be our guard for the present and future, at much lower cost than Stai.

The $300,000 difference in salary cap between Stai and Brown should not be dismissed. That could have been a nice signing bonus for Derrius Thompson, whose contract we could have extended before the season even started. Keep that in mind when we try to re-sign Thompson next offseason -- if we re-sign him, he'll be *much* more expensive as a 2003 free agent than he would be now.

[Art]

ASF,

The salient fact is where Stai goes, he starts 16 games. If he wasn't performing, he'd have been removed from the lineup. Jacksonville had a roster purge. They couldn't afford Stai who got a nice contract for a guard in Detroit. He started every game there too and his team named him the best lineman on the team, and that's a team with a riser like Brackus.

Jacksonville put a Top 3 left tackle on the expansion list. That team is frequently making moves based upon a lack of dollars more than anything else. I agree with you that we should have gone ahead and gotten Ray Brown. But, it's pretty clear the front office and coaching staff never really liked him very much.

What reasons they have I do not know despite our preferences. Stai isn't the same guy as he was with the Steelers. He's a pretty reliable starter in the league and when he continues to be the every game and every play starter everywhere he goes, he's doing something right.

[DougWilliams]

He's an upgrade to the position. That's how I'm looking at it. I'm glad we got somebody. why we didn't draft a guard is beyond me, but I sure as sheite ain't pining over old ray brown.

[Thinking Skins]

You cant say that we got the bitter end of a deal simply because the guy we passed on was gonna replace the guy we got. Look at the DT situation. We passed on whoever Miami picked up and then picked up Gardener, which solidifies our starting DL. Now we have a guard who may have had some problems in Detroit and so they were looking for a replacement. I dont know what happened there. I do know that this is a good OL that changes our situation on the line from being the biggest weakness on the team to being at least average. Now we have 2 pro bowlers, 2 average guys and one unknown in Tucker. I like that better than what I have been hearing.

[NavyDave]

I guess Stai is a one year stopgap unless he renegotiates his contract.

Jones did a great job playing LT against pittsburgh now if only this could translate into LG we would be sitting pretty but for now I still see the need of picking OG in the 2k3 draft.

[monarch34]

Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan

It's not all Kim Helton's fault. Snyder should have executed the Ramsey trade. Had he done so, Gandy would be our guard for the present and future, at much lower cost than Stai.

Sheesh. I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to say Helton overruled Snyder on the Ramsey trade and thus should be blamed for that too.

[SkinsLegacy44]

Our O-line has improved tremendously from this addition. We can't always dwell on the past.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Art

The salient fact is where Stai goes, he starts 16 games. If he wasn't performing, he'd have been removed from the lineup. Jacksonville had a roster purge. They couldn't afford Stai who got a nice contract for a guard in Detroit. He started every game there too and his team named him the best lineman on the team, and that's a team with a riser like [backus].... He's a pretty reliable starter in the league and when he continues to be the every game and every play starter everywhere he goes, he's doing something right.

Two observations:

1. Re: Stai's history of starts. Obviously we're not disputing Stai's Pittsburgh years, where I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. It's his recent shuffle through five teams in two years that troubles me (I suspect he's in decline and may be playing through nagging injuries). My guess is that Stai's continuing role as a starter even in the past two years is a combination of Stai being a tough guy (plays through injury), and the "Don't call me stupid" principle being in play from the team's side. The "Don't call me stupid" principle says that if a team is paying a lot of money for a player (or has made a big deal about acquiring a player), that player gets more playing time than he might otherwise deserve. Marty wrote the book on "Don't call me stupid" -- for example, forcing passes to Gardner and keeping Banks as his starter even after he was dramatically outperformed by Graham. Detroit signed Stai to a five-year, $9M contract with signing bonus. Previously Jacksonville traded a #4 pick for Stai. Of course Stai is going to start. Don't call me stupid. (But don't pay attention while I dump Stai in the offseason.)

2. The "best Detroit offensive lineman" award.... Detroit gave up 66 sacks last year (worst in the league; the NFL median was 38, and only 3 teams had more than 51). In rushing, Detroit was fourth worst in total yards, averaging 87 yards per game. Only three players started all season at OL, and one of them was a rookie (Backus). Identifying Stai as the "best" Detroit OL is like handing out a gold star to the most virtuous whore in a brothel.

By comparison, the 49ers with Ray Brown as a starter gave up 26 sacks (#4 in NFL) and averaged 140 rushing yards per game (#2). Was Ray Brown important to this success? The rest of the NFL thought so, voting Brown to the Pro Bowl.

Stai may be an upgrade over what we've got. But there were many better and less costly options, either as short-term fixes (Brown) or long-term foundations (Gandy among others).

And we still don't know what pick was blown on Stai. (The "undisclosed" nature of the pick probably indicates one of the teams is embarrassed by the pick. It could be a #7, which might embarrass the Lions slightly. More likely, it's a substantially higher pick, and the Redskins are reluctant to admit yet how much they blew to solve an emergency of their own creation.)

[Gamebreaker]

ASF,

Despite everything you wrote, Stai was still considered the best lineman on the Lions team by his own peers. That must count for something, and regardless, he may not play as well as Brown but he sure will last longer. Brown is simply too old to be relied upon as a long term option, we can get a few years out of Stai.

[AtlSkin]

IMHO, you also can't make a real comparison of the sack totals between SF and D. Those two O's are WORLDS apart. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that teams were loading up to rush the pitiful Lions and that's not really a very fruitful option when you're playing the 9ers. Throw it in there, every now and then, just to keep them off balance but not anywhere NEAR the amount of times you do that against Detroit.

Botton line, I think it solidifies our OL and that's a good thing.

HTTR!

[The Evil Genius]

Nor can you compare the impact that having a rookie QB and other trash lining up behind center vs. a very mobile and dangerous Jeff Garcia.

Plus, seeing all 16 games last year of the 'Niners, Jeff Garcia took a lot of brutal hits. While Ray Brown wasnt the cause of those brutal hits - he was a part of it.

You guys can say what you want about Garcia's effiminate speech - that dude is one tough SOB.

Anyways, thats off point.

Peace.

[Art]

ASF,

Stai has been with two teams since Pittsburgh. If you want to count KC that's great, but it's a lot like counting Robiske as a head coach of the Redskins. Though technically true, it's practially meaningless. Regardless, he left Pittsburgh as a starter there and then played in Jacksonville as the starter there. Then he went to Detroit and was the starter there.

He's probably very clearly in decline. Any player who's started as many battles as he has is BOUND to be in a bit of decline as he hits 30. Especially so for linemen. The Lions were an atrocious football team. No one argues that. But, it's laughable to compare them with the Niners and you know it.

While I also wonder why we wouldn't have just gone with Brown, one thing I don't wonder about with that is that Stai is a superior run blocker to Brown. Brown was mostly a pass blocker in that offense and a good one. Pass blocking is important on our team. But, Stai is a legitimate run blocker who should stablize some of what may be evident in watching Tucker or Vickers. I do agree we were a bit silly to surrender anything for Stai while not offering a contract to Brown, but, the reasons are clear and though I don't fully buy into it, I am stable enough to admit the front office may have a clue from time to time on personnel moves that sometimes even outweighs my knowledge .

I haven't seen enough of Stai to rate him fairly and neither have you. I've seen more of Brown and have a better handle. The front office and staff has likely seen a TON of Stai and Brown. Brown fits better with the Lions than Stai perhaps. All I know is that I trust our front office more than their front office at this point .

As for Mike Gandy, while I agree it would have been nice to get a younger prospect, it's not like we know a thing about Gandy other than he didn't play last year and he's not worked his way into the starting job yet this year and he likely won't. We know NOTHING about him other than, like Stai, he's a third-round pick. He's younger than Stai with no real game film to judge him with.

He's Loverne a year younger. We know Stai has been a starter with three NFL teams. That's three more than Gandy thusfar. Stai was a starter right away for the Steelers. While I don't suggest you embrace this move as the greatest of all time, I do recommend you not let Gandy be a dissuading factor in at least appreciating it a little bit.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Art

Stai has been with two teams since Pittsburgh. If you want to count KC that's great, but it's a lot like counting Robiske as a head coach of the Redskins. Though technically true, it's practially meaningless. Regardless, he left Pittsburgh as a starter there and then played in Jacksonville as the starter there. Then he went to Detroit and was the starter there.

The record shows that four straight teams in two years have given up on Stai after substantial investments by each team:

"Stai was released by the Steelers on March 14 of [2000]. He signed with Kansas City on May 4 [2000] and was traded to Jacksonville in August [2000]. He was one of 10 players released by the Jaguars on March 1 to get under the salary cap of $67.4 million for this season."

According to a Lions site fan post, the Lions invested "a couple million" signing bonus to sign Stai to a 5-year contract. If true, by now jetisoning Stai one year into that contract, the Lions are essentially *paying* Stai about $1.6M (accelerated pro-rated signing bonus now hitting their cap) to please -- please -- never play for the team again.

Signing bonus source: http://pc99.detnews.com/detroitlionsonline/lettersindex.hbs

While I also wonder why we wouldn't have just gone with Brown, one thing I don't wonder about with that is that Stai is a superior run blocker to Brown. Brown was mostly a pass blocker in that offense and a good one. Pass blocking is important on our team. But, Stai is a legitimate run blocker who should stablize some of what may be evident in watching Tucker or Vickers.

Guards are arguably the most important OL position for the running game. Detroit was 4th worst in rushing in the NFL (87 yards per game), and the 49ers were #2 (140 yards per game). Brown may be a better pass blocker than a run blocker, but it's hard to argue that his run blocking is a liability -- or that Stai still *remains* a powerful run blocker, after his decline.

I haven't seen enough of Stai to rate him fairly and neither have you.

True, but these Lions fans have:

"These 2 bums [stai and Semple] have ZERO trade value. maybe a 7th rounder if lucky. I dont want to sound negative but I am saying the truth.... Stai is pretty stinky most of the time."

"In many seasons, and even a few months ago, you're right, we would not have gotten bupkis for the guy [stai]. But right now, it's a seller's market, and that's good news for us."

"[The Redskins] went hard after Tony Semple, and in fact were the favorites to sign him, before we brought him back." (Not a comment on Stai, but on the poor judgement of the Redskin OL "braintrust".)

"Stai isn't very good, but one thing is, he's durable. He plays in a lot of games and doesn't come out of the lineup very much. "

"When Stai was in Pittsburgh he was not considered one of their better OLs. On the other hand, he wasn't such a weak link that the line wasn't, overall, very good."

"You know I dislike Stai. He replaced Hartings ... but, well, ... not. He didn't run block well. He missed assignments in pass blocking (some due to poor personnel on each side of him). He lost concentration a lot, causing a lot of stupid penalties. Addition by subtraction? Sure."

"A straight release [of Stai] would have been OK with me."

Source: http://citadel.ezboard.com/flionsfansfrm1

Feeling better yet?

As for Mike Gandy, while I agree it would have been nice to get a younger prospect, it's not like we know a thing about Gandy other than he didn't play last year and he's not worked his way into the starting job yet this year and he likely won't. We know NOTHING about him other than, like Stai, he's a third-round pick. He's younger than Stai with no real game film to judge him with.

You're being unfair to Gandy.

Mel Kiper had Gandy rated as the #15 pick in the 2nd round (projecting the Redskins to pick him - d'oh!). The reason he's not starting in Chicago is because their OL is already one of the best in the league, and the guards are particular strengths. Also, Gandy was injured in his rookie training camp last year and fell behind. The Bears gave up only 17 sacks last year (#1 in NFL), compared to a league median of 38, and the worst-in-NFL Lions (66 sacks). Maybe in selecting Gandy, the Bears showed they know something about OL talent, and the Lions and Redskins, by investing in Gandy, show how little they know about OL talent.

Gotta love the mediot take on this:

http://mlive.com/sportsflash/profootball/index.ssf?/newsflash/get_story.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?g7196_BC_FBN--Redskins-Dolphin&&sports&mi-nfl

By JOSEPH WHITE

The Associated Press

8/23/02 2:41 AM

"... [stai] was voted by his teammates as the Lions' top offensive lineman the last two years."

Seems Stai was so valuable to the Lions, he was their top lineman even the year before he played for them. :doh:

[Art]

Atlanta,

One Lions fan said he'd trade Stai to us for Smoot and a pick. We didn't take Gandy because we did take Smoot. Who'd you rather have right now? I'm in no way being unfair to Gandy. He's not played in the NFL. He's not slated to play now. He's David Loverne only a year or two younger.

I get the impression that Stai wasn't as good as Hartings for the Lions. But, liken this to Stubblefield for us. Stubblefield isn't a great defensive tackle. But, he's a starting quality tackle and is average at this point. We cut him outright because we wanted to move in another direction.

San Francisco wasn't foolish for picking him up. They wouldn't have been foolish if they had traded for him either. We, as Redskin fans, don't generally appreciate Stubby very much. We might have some harsh things to say. That doesn't mean he's not a starting level player. He would have started for us last year had we kept him.

Again, Stai isn't a great player. He is a starting level player in this league, clearly. His team voted him their best lineman. That's meaningful. They weren't a good line. No question. Being the best on Detroit is different than being the best in Washington as Samuels or Jansen. It's really of no consequence.

The facts are that fans are often stupid. We are here about Stubblefield as we don't recognize while he was not worth his contract, he was a starting level player. I'm sure the Lions are as well, after losing Hartings, a popular player, and not probably getting the type of performance from Stai to make them forget who they lost.

That Stai had the respect of his teammates was clear. That he was a starter in every game was clear. That he has certain strengths as a player is clear. That he is an upgrade over our unknowns at guard is clear. That he's not a Pro Bowler is clear. That this wasn't a bad move is clear.

And, again, our front office likes Brown less than you and I do. Why? I don't know. I do know that there's a reason.

[Thinking Skins]

So I guess you're saying that every problem that the Lions had last year is Stai's fault? NOw that he's gone and replaced by Brown, they're going to be just like SF this year right. :doh:

c'mon. ease up on the guy.

[Larry]

I keep seeing some themes in this discussion here, and I get some questions about them.

Some folks say he's been with four teams in 2 years, others point out he started for all four. I wonder "Why'd he get cut from four teams (as opposed to becoming backup)"? Do the teams that release him get trade offers for him?

I keep seeing people point out that he doesn't seem to miss games. Durability is certainly a virtue.

Do we know what we gave up for him, yet?

[Guest PARedskin]

I think he is an uograde too, but from what I've been reading, his best years are behind him.

:high:

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Art

His team voted him their best lineman. That's meaningful.

I wonder.

Here's a Lion fan's take:

"Hate to burst your bubble guys, but Stai was probably one of our worst OL last year (why he was voted the best is beyond most Lions' fans!) He was constantly beat in passing situations and always seemed to come up with that perfect holding call on our best offensive plays (as few as they were last year!!) If you don't believe just one fan's opinion, you can check out our message board (mlive.com/lions) and see what everyone else is saying. We got Ray Brown from SF (old, but a pro bowler last year) and the guy you really wanted from us Semple, we didn't give up. You will be very disappointed with this guy, I promise you....... "

"I'm not coming over here to pick a fight with you guys..just trying to give you the impression of what we saw last year...believe me, we wanted him to work out...we needed the help...he just didn't work out.....trust me..our left tackle backus and center beverly were lightyears ahead of him as far as talent......you'll find out soon enough"

Source: "Viper Pilot", forum: http://pub150.ezboard.com/fcpndhardcorefrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=10143.topic&start=41&stop=52

Other Lion fans:

"Anyone who was hoping for Stai to be an all-pro or even a solid starter for the next few years was either not famalliar with his past or just an over optimistic Leo fan."

"The thing about Stai is that his poor O-line play contributed to many losses. Hopefully, with him gone our OL will improve and we can garner some more ties."

"A good move [by the Lions] would have been not to sign [stai] in the first place and waste all that money and cap space."

"Glad we traded Stai..... Several reasons. First off, I thought he was one of our worse linemen last year. How he was voted the best, is beyond me (maybe he's a great locker room kind of guy) I (don't know why now) taped every game last year, and watched him get beat way too many times.... Bottom line is, I DID NOT like Stai's play last year at all."

"I read recently that Stai has a sore knee. Would love to see the Skins end up with damaged goods."

"Redskin fans.... They are overjoyed about getting Stai. Well, I hope they enjoy the moment."

"They are saying that they are impressed with Stai and that he was voted as the Lion's best offensive player last year. What they don't understand is that he was voted the most "O-FFENSIVE" player of the year (wink,wink)"

"Even at 60, Brown will be a better Guard than Stai.. "

"No one is perfect, but the stubborn guy who sticks with a bad thing is worse. Sticking with Stai and not signing Brown would've been the worse decision."

"To truly correct his mistake [Millen] should pay 2.75 mil back to mr Ford after wasting his money [on Stai]."

Source: http://www.mlive.com/forums/lions/

Finally, a correction on how much it is costing the Lions to make Stai go away. A year ago, Stai signed a five-year, $9.72 million contract in 2001 that included a $2.75 million signing bonus. Since he played only one year, the remaining four years of the pro-rated signing bonus $2.2M will hit the Lions cap after the trade.

Source: http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2002/0822/1421738.html

In short, the Lions just paid Stai $2.2M to never play for them again. That's all you really need to know.

[The Evil Genius]

I do hope ASF that you will show up to take your lumps, repeatedly, when (and not if) Stai is solid (even if unspectacular) this year.

The way that you continually describe him makes him sound like he isn't even capable at the Pro Level. Which, the Steelers, Jags, and Lions have proven is not the case.

To me, Stai is not a "sexy" lineman who stands out. He is a blue collar road grader who gets the jobs done more often than not. At Pittsburgh, he was a well thought of player. He wasnt resigned because, at the time, the Steeler FO did not resign players to big salaries. I followed the Steelers a little more back then (I went to college 70 miles away from Pittsburgh and thus I didnt have much choice). I dont remember him being released - but that might have well happened. I thought he went off to greener pastures myself.

Anyways, if Stai performs better than say, Ray Brown, or gasp, even Ross Tucker/Rod Jones - then I guess you will have some explaining to do.

Peace.

[Art]

Atlanta,

Again, read the Michael Westbrook posts here or the Dana Stubblefield posts here. I've read posts here regarding how WE view our offensive line as fans that simply don't jibe with the reality of their play in the preseason. Fans are the swarm. They are a pack. Once the body starts to stink, it's over.

Stai is what he is. An average guard who is consistently in the starting lineup. While I'm POSITIVE Lions fans like to think they know more than Stai's teammates who watch him on film and practice with him every day, it's probably not likely they can evaluate him as well as the players on the team can.

So, while you seem to think there's some great weight to be placed on what someone named Art or ASF on the Lions board thinks about Stai, I think about Stai more what he is. He IS a starter. He was SO bad last year for the Lions that he didn't miss a game and only missed one play. That's horrible. In fact, it seems the Lions coaches don't know as much as the fans do about Stai.

They should be run differently that they can't see it. I'm a fan too. I make really stupid comments from time to time. But, no one denies Stai's teammates felt he was their best player on the line. No one denies he was the Lions starter and missed only one play. No one denies the Redskins are in the market for "average" guards in a system that calls for them. Stai is a good, average, starting level guard.

We wanted him now more than Semple and that's probably good. I was never huge on Semple. I'm not huge on Stai, but, he's got some positives.

[bulldog]

Was Stai a better pickup for a middle round pick than Mike Gandy?

That is the real question one should ask because those were the publicized deals that were on the table.

The stuff with the Raiders and Saints was only rumors, no solid information on an offer was forthcoming.

Stai is a good run blocker, we all know that. And Brown is a WCO lineman with 7 years in San Francisco and is a guy the HC in Detroit knows well.

so, his winning the job and the Lions looking to deal Stai doesn't not necessarily mean Stai can't play.

At the same time you would have to question as some have done why if you are looking for solid pass protectors why you would acquire a guard that is more of a run blocker by trade.

Otherwise, you could have re-signed Ben Coleman and had him working in camp for the past month.

[Dickens]

I just remember Stai being N-A-S-T-Y coming out of college. He was a beast. Let's see if he's still got it.