U.S. pays to have phony stories printed in Iraq

[Destino]

You don't trust your government to do what? Is your life bad and you think government is out to get you?

You as an american are spoiled by the rights you do have.

Rights that we have because the founding fathers did not (wait for it)...trust the government.

[chomerics]

To be honest, my initial instinct was that if it works, then do it. In order to straighten out the morass which is Iraq right now, we need to win over people's minds.

But, I think it is too late for this though, and it just adds more fuel to the fire. So I guess my position is that it can do more harm then good, because the Iraqi's will not trust anything positive about the Americans. In other words, they only need one instance to solidify their belief that we are bad. . . It's funny to us liberals though, because a good analogy can be found between the right wing, their beliefs on the liberal media and this incident. All you need is a single example, and everyone will jump on the bandwagon and say it's true. They ignore everything which is contrary to their opinion, yet grab hold and clutch the single thing that proves their point.

So, in essence, by doing this, we have discredited many other sources of true progress, because we've alerady put it in their heads that we are buying the press.

As for the IQ comment, if you don't like it, then tell Navy Dave to stop labeling everyone with a point of view opposite of his as a mental midget or a moron. Calling out somebody and challenging them to put their money where their mouth is, IMO, is not uncalled for. Especially when you are calling some one out for their constant drumbeat of hatred.

:2cents:

[Sarge]

As for the IQ comment, if you don't like it, then tell Navy Dave to stop labeling everyone with a point of view opposite of his as a mental midget or a moron. Calling out somebody and challenging them to put their money where their mouth is, IMO, is not uncalled for. Especially when you are calling some one out for their constant drumbeat of hatred.

:2cents:

But will you accept the mental midget label if he takes the test and whips your arse? :laugh:

[gimpy007]

Here it is. It's a New York Times article. You have to be registered to view it but it's free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/international/middleeast/01cnd-prop.html?hp&ex=1133499600&en=495f0aa6dcecc29e&ei=5094&partner=homepage

The NY Times writting something negative about our country... Wow, thats a shocker.

[aREDSKIN]

Warner Seeks Military Response to Report It Paid Off Iraq Press

Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Senator John Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he asked the Pentagon to respond to published reports that the U.S. military has covertly paid Iraqi newspapers to print pro-American stories.

Warner, a Republican of Virginia, said in a statement that he has ``has no information to confirm or refute the report,'' and asked the Defense Department to brief the committee tomorrow on the issue.

The Los Angeles Times reported yesterday that stories written by ``information operation'' troops were secretly placed with media outlets in Iraq through a Washington-based defense contractor, Lincoln Group.

The stories are presented as unbiased news accounts written and reported by independent journalists, the paper reported. The articles praise the work of U.S. and Iraqi troops, denounce insurgents and commend U.S.-led efforts to rebuild the country.

In Baghdad, Major General Rick Lynch, chief military spokesman, said today the U.S. has a program to counter lies spread by terrorists in Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al-Qaeda's leader in Iraq, ``is continually lying to the Iraqi people, to the international community,'' Lynch said in a press briefing telecast from Baghdad.

``We do empower our operational commanders with the ability to inform the Iraqi public, but everything we do is based on fact not based on fiction,'' Lynch said.

Lincoln Group spokesman Laurie Adler, in a telephone interview, said the company ``can't discuss the contract but everything the Lincoln Group put out was truthful and factual.''

Information Omitted

The Los Angeles Times, in its report citing unnamed U.S. military officials, said that, while the articles are based on fact, they omit information that might reflect poorly on the U.S. or Iraqi governments. Dozens of such articles have run at a time when the U.S. government is pledging to promote free speech and democratic principles in Iraq, the paper said.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan today said the Bush administration is ``very concerned'' about the report.

``The United States is a leader when it comes to promoting and advocating a free and independent media around the world, and we will continue to do so,'' McClellan told reporters at a press briefing. ``We want to see what the facts are,'' he said.

Last Updated: December 1, 2005 17:18 EST

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aXjhWSGfGJsg

[twa]

I do not have a problem with it as long as the info is factual.

Simply paying to make sure events are reported is likely needed when dealing with the prevailing mindset and culture in the area.

[luckydevil]

Matt Welch over at Reason pretty much summed up my view on the issue

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/12/propaganda_apol_1.shtml#011836

I am all in favor of the White House aggressively countering lies told about its actions. But if it really had faith in the persuasive power of truth, the Pentagon would be open about buying a newspaper; make it the best and most truthful damned newspaper in all Iraq, and watch citizens go "Huh; maybe these Americans are on to something!" By laundering its message through influence-buying bag men and lies, Rumsfeld's men are demonstrating contempt for those Iraqi citizens interested in transparency, and showing a disturbing lack of faith in the ennobling power of American values.

[Kilmer17]

I think it's HYSTERICAL that the Air America Crowd are the ones up in arms about this.

Propoganda is a cheap and effective way to help aid our soldiers.

That being said, IF it turns out that we are telling lies, then I have a major problem with this. But if, as it's being portrayed, is simply the US paying to have positive TRUE stories being told, I think it's not only a brilliant move, but a necessary one to combat the fake stories being released by our enemy.

[Zuck]

I do not have a problem with it as long as the info is factual.

Simply paying to make sure events are reported is likely needed when dealing with the prevailing mindset and culture in the area.

They can do that. The U.S. is free to print anything they want. Just put down the accurate source. Trying to dupe people into believing it's coming from their indepent unbiased news source is lame and very Saddam like.

[zoony]

It's only a bad idea if you get caught doing it.

The Pentagon got caught with their pants around their ankles. It was a BAD idea.

However, if they don't get caught, no harm done imho

[chomerics]

But will you accept the mental midget label if he takes the test and whips your arse? :laugh:

Absolutely. . . at least in my case

[chomerics]

It's only a bad idea if you get caught doing it.

The Pentagon got caught with their pants around their ankles. It was a BAD idea.

However, if they don't get caught, no harm done imho

Therin lies the problem Zoony, you will almost always get caught doing it.

Kilmer, it isn't the "Air America" crowd that is up in arms over this. Read lucky's post, you can hardly say he is part of the Air America crowd. His quote was absolutely spot on, and I agree with it completely. We are over there trying to tell the Iraqis that our value system is better then theirs, yet we hold contempt for our value system and ignore it. This speaks volumes not only to the Arab population, but the rest of the world as well. It has done more the harm our credibility then anything that has happened in the past 50 years.

We are supposedly trying to show these Iraqis why our value system is better, yet when you have contempt for your own rules, you undermine and erode the support from the people you need. You destroy the foundation you need to build on. The average Iraqi sees our actions, and they think we are completely disengneuous with our rhetoric. They are not stuped people, they are human and they understand saying one thing and doing another. . . they lived under Saddam for over 20 years, and the majority now view us as no different.

[zoony]

Therin lies the problem Zoony, you will almost always get caught doing it.

.

I guess my point is that I see nothing inherently wrong with it. I'm less of an idealist, and more of an ends justify the means guy most cases.

But they got caught, and put another nail in the coffin of mistrust that exists in the Arab world. I imagine that Al Jazeera is having a field day with this one. :doh:

I don't think we should question intentions, however. Not at all. It is clear what the Pentagon was after... they are trying to win hearts and minds. More power to them, we need the help.

But they got caught. Ugh. Not good. :doh:

........

[Kilmer17]

Therin lies the problem Zoony, you will almost always get caught doing it.

Kilmer, it isn't the "Air America" crowd that is up in arms over this. Read lucky's post, you can hardly say he is part of the Air America crowd. His quote was absolutely spot on, and I agree with it completely. We are over there trying to tell the Iraqis that our value system is better then theirs, yet we hold contempt for our value system and ignore it. This speaks volumes not only to the Arab population, but the rest of the world as well. It has done more the harm our credibility then anything that has happened in the past 50 years.

We are supposedly trying to show these Iraqis why our value system is better, yet when you have contempt for your own rules, you undermine and erode the support from the people you need. You destroy the foundation you need to build on. The average Iraqi sees our actions, and they think we are completely disengneuous with our rhetoric. They are not stuped people, they are human and they understand saying one thing and doing another. . . they lived under Saddam for over 20 years, and the majority now view us as no different.

What "rule" is being broken? How is this any different than any other war effort?

We arent making up stories, we're paying to have positive true stories run.

[chomerics]

What "rule" is being broken? How is this any different than any other war effort?

We arent making up stories, we're paying to have positive true stories run.

We are breaking up a free and independent press.

Like I said before, I initially would have been for starting something like the armed services radio, in print form, but planting stories puts doubt into Iraqi's minds. You couple this with the British memo that stated Bush wanted to bomb Al Jezzerra, any you get a mess.

[nelms]

We are breaking up a free and independent press.

Like I said before, I initially would have been for starting something like the armed services radio, in print form, but planting stories puts doubt into Iraqi's minds. You couple this with the British memo that stated Bush wanted to bomb Al Jezzerra, any you get a mess.

They should be bombed. They are a mouthpiece for the terrorists. This war is being run by a bunch of wimps.

[Kilmer17]

We are breaking up a free and independent press.

Like I said before, I initially would have been for starting something like the armed services radio, in print form, but planting stories puts doubt into Iraqi's minds. You couple this with the British memo that stated Bush wanted to bomb Al Jezzerra, any you get a mess.

1- There is no free and independant press in Iraq currently. As such, propoganda is needed to combat the lies from the enemy spouted daily on Al Jazeera and in their papers.

2- I actually agree with you that there might have been a better way, but that doesnt mean that this was wrong in any way shape or form.

What's wrong, is the over-reaction and feigned anger by the media in OUR country and the reaction of the usual suspects on the left.

If John Warner and others want an investigation into the SUBSTANCE of the stories, Im all for it. AS I said, if it's not true, it was wrong. But the pouncing by guys like Chris MAtthews last night was unconcionable.

[NavyDave]

1) They're stories written by the US Army, that've been handed through a middle man for the specific purpose of hiding their origin. The story is, therefore, "phony" before you even start reading the first sentance.

2) Last time I checked, there weren't any troops surrounding the NYT building. (Although I get the impression you have a problem with that.)

3) They're not engaging in "borderline sedition by giving the Enemy pinpoint locations of where cIA planes land". They're telling the american people that the Thug In Chief is lieing to them.

And they're not CIA planes. They're a private corporation that has no ties whatsoever with the US government. (A private corporation that has clearance to use the facilities of US military bases.)

In fact, they're not even real planes. Haven't you heard? We don't do that kind of stuff. George Bush has said so. (While simultaneously claiming, to the Republican members of Congress, that we absolutely, positively can't prohibit it, even though we're not doing it.)

The NY and LA Times have printed a positive US military story when???

So once again liberals dont see anything wrong with our tactics being presented so our enemies can take advantage of them.

[Burgold]

I don't have much of a problem with this. Propaganda is a tool to be used in war. I had a far bigger problem with the Bush Administration paying plants to pose as reporters during their American press conferences, producing "news" pieces and then sending them unlabeled to be aired as part of American news programs, and prepping soldiers with how to answer questions and what to say in preinterview sessions for a spontaneous interview made for American consumption.

[NavyDave]

I didn't say all liberals are mental midgets just the ones I was engaged with a heated discussion with and it wasn't even on this board.

Yes liberals can be educated as we see in the Ivy league and still lack common sense or real world knowledge.

As for me I had the option of being a Nuclear Electronic engineer or A Data Systems Analyst and chose the former mainly because I hated Submarines and I saw my potential in that area.

But enough of that.

Lets look at this thread and you can see the patriotic get things done group and the provide Aid and Comfort to the Enemy Blame America First Crowd.

Liberals were pro CIA when they thought a non story could bring down President Bush and his cabinet but it is good to see your true face again.

[NavyDave]

Hmm lets see liberal media types since 9-11 don't wear the US Flag on their lapel so they can remain "objective."

We PAY for leftwing Bash Bush, America Sux NPR as well as PBS

[NavyDave]

We know we can't depend on Al Jazeera or the BBC to spread the positive true stories and its a real shame that my troops know they can't count on their country's own press to print the truth and positive stories so they have to do it themselves.

One thing the liberal mental midgets ignore is that we in the military do have a Public Affairs Office that that scruntinizes information before it goes out and our intel guys there aren't going to jeopardize their credibility with the locals with a story that can be proven false.

[Zuck]

We know we can't depend on Al Jazeera or the BBC to spread the positive true stories and its a real shame that my troops know they can't count on their country's own press to print the truth and positive stories so they have to do it themselves.

One thing the liberal mental midgets ignore is that we in the military do have a Public Affairs Office that that scruntinizes information before it goes out and our intel guys there aren't going to jeopardize their credibility with the locals with a story that can be proven false.

Seriously are you in the third grade?

[Mad Mike]

What is amazing is that the same people who falsely claim we are creating more terrorists (in fact we are just bringing them out into the light as they come from other countries while training Iraqis to kill them), want to complain when we must pay to have true stories of american goodwill printed in Iraq in order to spread encouragement and cooperation with the Iraqi people.

Tell the tuth... You want us to fail don't you? :doh:

[chomerics]

1- There is no free and independant press in Iraq currently. As such, propoganda is needed to combat the lies from the enemy spouted daily on Al Jazeera and in their papers.

2- I actually agree with you that there might have been a better way, but that doesnt mean that this was wrong in any way shape or form.

What's wrong, is the over-reaction and feigned anger by the media in OUR country and the reaction of the usual suspects on the left.

If John Warner and others want an investigation into the SUBSTANCE of the stories, Im all for it. AS I said, if it's not true, it was wrong. But the pouncing by guys like Chris MAtthews last night was unconcionable.

Kilmer, just because you disagreee with it does not mean it is unconcionable, but I didn't see hardball last night, so I really don't know what he said. It is also not "just the left" that is upset at this, it is the majority of leaders in the country. They understand how something like this erodes democracy, and how it can hurt our chances at getting the people to back our cause.

I think a military col. said it best, on Fox last night. He said it isn't the fact that we were doing this that destroys us, it is the fact that we got caught. If you are even going to attempt something like manipulating the press, you make god damn sure you hide everything. Because if it is found out that you are doing it, it destroys all the work that was put into it up until that point.

The reasons are numerous, but the most important one is believability of positive news. You, of all people should know how one mistake can completely reinforce peoples beliefs, and make them completely shut down anything from that source. Do I need to mention Dan Rathers name? I think you understand what I mean.

I also find it ironic that the people who have no problem with this are the most ardent Fox supporters. They think of nothing for calling out Al Jezzera, and say things like they should be bombed, yet they have the same kind of propaganda station here in Fox News. I guess I just have a really hard time understanding how some people could can look at one situation and think one thing, then look at the exact same situation in another country and think the exact opposite, yet fail to see the contradiction in their own views.

For me, I hate Al Jeezera just as I hate Fox News. THey are both propaganda channels which do more to hurt democracy then help it. But in the same breath I have never said that Fox News should be bombed, or shut down, instead, I have focused on attacking them for their lies and propaganda. The military should do the same thing against Al Jeezera, create your own anti-Al Jeezera. Why there is no Fox News over there yet I have no idea. . . instead we get the military paying to put stories in papers, which hurts our cause more over there yet again. . . but that is par for the course with the dim bulbs in charge right now.