We had such a bad draft

[fpickering]

Mathis is in his third year in the league. It was stated we needed a legitimate pass rushing end in this draft. And, again, who is that guy we missed on for this year? Or, was it meant to say we needed to draft a guy who could fill a role somewhere down the line but who did little to nothing now as with most late round draft picks at every position.

We missed on Canty and instead opted for a 2nd string H-Back who played RB/FB in college. Will be be a legitimate pass rushing DE? I don't know. The point here is that I just do not understand the rationale and I did not at the time of the draft either.

Wynn and Daniels are getting up there in age, are amongst our 15 highest paid players and have been average at best. At the time of the draft, I would think that we would want to snatch Canty up after he dropped and

replace most likely Daniels with a cheaper, younger, and hopefully more effective option.

[Art]

The defensive line was a strength against running the football but make no mistake about it they were deficient in generating pressure on the QB last season. It was just masked by a better secondary and effective blitzing schemes.

Actually, it may have been "masked" by a more healthy Griffin, Salave'a and Noble more than anything. The rotation this year has called upon some younger guys to step up and they've done an admirable, if not outstanding, job. Clemons has played in total snaps maybe a bit more than one game this year. He constantly generates pressure in pass rushing situations where he's exclusively used.

In any case, our system is such that individual sack stats by anyone on the line may be difficult to accomplish because contrary to popular opinion, the system requires very specific rush technique to protect against the run underneath or the screen or some other areas an offense can exploit if you have a balls out edge rush, or wide, looping interior moves to the QB.

For example, it wouldn't surprise me if we had a guy like Freeney that he would only have four or five sacks and he'd be perfectly and wonderfully productive as a pass rusher within the scheme. Maybe I'm wrong on this and having that type of player would be an upgrade from Daniels and Wynn in sack count and the ability to make quick pressure in big situations, but, he's also not nearly the run defender either is.

We have a specific type of defensive lineman in this system. That player isn't, necessarily, a Freeney or even an Abraham, as much as we might like to think. It's not a Kearse even. We create pressure by alignment and reputation. This is why teams aren't completing passes on us at the rate they do on other teams. Our secondary has given up more individual matchups this year that didn't happen a year ago. But, I think pressure is defined somewhat differently than we tend to understand as fans.

It's not always something you see. It's something you create. Except for Philly, teams are so afraid of our pressure, they adjust -- essentially playing like we play on offense -- with extreme protections and take a few shots a game deep. They're connecting on them.

Again, I agree with everyone who'd like to get a young live body in the draft for the defensive line. But, it's not a lack of pressure that has been our biggest problem this year. It's been losing the individual matchups more in the secondary than we did last year. If we win those, teams have to go outside their protections to hurt us and we will stop that. Until we win those, we're really going to have the big play as a weakness of the defense.

No doubt about that.

[Art]

We missed on Canty and instead opted for a 2nd string H-Back who played RB/FB in college. Will be be a legitimate pass rushing DE? I don't know. The point here is that I just do not understand the rationale and I did not at the time of the draft either.

Wynn and Daniels are getting up there in age, are amongst our 15 highest paid players and have been average at best. At the time of the draft, I would think that we would want to snatch Canty up after he dropped and

replace most likely Daniels with a cheaper, younger, and hopefully more effective option.

I was calling Canty's name as well if you'll recall, so, it's not like you and I were of differing minds as to who we'd have taken had we been making the call. Of course, you and I have seen about 1 percent of the plays Canty played in college. We didn't see any of his individual workouts. We didn't know how Gibbs was adjusting the offense with smaller receivers on the outside to attempt to exploit matchups with the H-Back more -- as we've seen with Cooley -- and therefore didn't know how much more critical it was to have that H-Back in this offense than we typically may have considered from past Gibbs offenses.

Though, to be fair, I don't think this team uses a lot of the above rationale -- either to get Canty or White or any other player -- when they draft. I don't think they examine the roster to be honest. I think they have players rated a certain way and when they are up to draft whatever player is at the top of the list gets taken. Within that rating is some weight given to need on the team. Like, the Redskins may love a QB in the next draft, but, the positional weight may be lower during the grading process because of a perceived lack of need.

So when the draft comes up and we're on the clock, the process has already taken into account the things we think we need and weighed within the players we grade so the pick is defined by the work done ahead of time. This best player available strategy is one teams employ in an effort to avoid attempting to "reach" on a player to fill a perceived need.

Whether we agree or disagree with the individual player rating is irrelevant as we all know they'll be right on some and wrong on some -- even wildly so. Like Rogers, it was reported after the draft that 15 teams had Rogers as their top corner. We were one. Maybe we will be right to have had him, maybe not. But, the logic is pure early in the draft. It's fuzzy at the end when we know so little of the players around.

Obviously you have to trust the scouts are assessing people based on the systems in place in an effort to grade players best to fit those systems. We've had a lot of turnover in system so we've had a lot of players you don't see develop as much with the team. We should see more improvement here just from the stability of system.

Now, with hope we get better while also drafting linemen eventually.

[fpickering]

I agree that a healthy Griffin, Salave'a and Noble also helped disguise our pass pressure deficiencies. With that being said, I really like our DT rotation. Frankly with the injuries you really have to give it up to especially Salave'a and Bochetti, Killings, etc.

For the record, I don't want a high profile and expensive DE this offseason. I have been pushing Aaron Kampmann as he is a guy with a nonstop motor who seems to be all over the QB and is a lot less profile than an Abraham (who I adamently oppose due to attitude issues) and Freeny who will be resigned by Indy.

[fdarugar]

I agree that a healthy Griffin, Salave'a and Noble also helped disguise our pass pressure deficiencies. With that being said, I really like our DT rotation. Frankly with the injuries you really have to give it up to especially Salave'a and Bochetti, Killings, etc.

For the record, I don't want a high profile and expensive DE this offseason. I have been pushing Aaron Kampmann as he is a guy with a nonstop motor who seems to be all over the QB and is a lot less profile than an Abraham (who I adamently oppose due to attitude issues) and Freeny who will be resigned by Indy.

Kampman and Edwards (Lions) would be perfect. Both young budding stars with 13 sacks and 80 tackles between them this year. Plus they would be much cheaper than a Freeney or Abraham.

[TheLongshot]

The cowboys had an excellent draft to me unfortunately...players that immediately came in and had an impact, will only get better, and be instrumental pieces for years to come it appears.

One might say that the Boys needed impact from their rookies, because their talent level wasn't very high, and that they were changing defensive systems. One might also say that we didn't need our rookies to perform right away, because our talent level was pretty good.

In fact, sometimes throwing a rookie to the wolves is to his detriment. I think of Brad Badger, who we had to press into service as a starter due to injuries. He actually did a decent job, but he ended up losing his job here rather quickly.

Jason

[UK Skins]

I love reading these "Art versus the rest" conversations. It always makes me imagine a bull versus several matadors. Thing is it is sometimes difficult to work out who won :laugh:

That is why this board is such a success, and if I may say so, it is nice to see reasoned argument back in fashion. :applause:

[TheLongshot]

Again, I agree with everyone who'd like to get a young live body in the draft for the defensive line. But, it's not a lack of pressure that has been our biggest problem this year. It's been losing the individual matchups more in the secondary than we did last year. If we win those, teams have to go outside their protections to hurt us and we will stop that. Until we win those, we're really going to have the big play as a weakness of the defense.

You've lost me here, because the biggest problem for this defense is the inability to force turnovers. Usually, the best way to force turnovers is to apply pressure to force a mistake. We certainly seen the effect it has on our team. The problem is, the front four can't put on consistant pressure. We had to blitz last year to put on pressure, and now it doesn't work since teams are ready for it. I agree with you that losing DTs to injury has hurt us, but some of the problems have been around longer than that, like last year.

I'm also another guy who doesn't really think that Freeney will be a guy that we will chase after, and that there may be some younger guys that we could target. I wouldn't be surprised if that's going to the the very first signing.

Jason

[TheGreek1973]

So Art let me get this straight. You wanted Canty (like the rest of us big time) but you are ok with the White choice even hindsight?

If that is the case this is were you and I different. I have no problem saying the FO or coaching staff or whatever dropped the ball, just like I had no problem calling Gregg Williams and Blanche total egotistical idiots for not starting Lavar just because he wasn't showing "something" in practice.

[mcgraw238]

The biggest crime of this whole draft was giving up picks to get Campbell. Anyone who watches SEC football knows that guy is not an NFL QB. QB of the future my ...

[Taylor 21]

i still like carlos rogers tho

[318 SKIN]

Ware has done NOTHING!!!!!!:doh: :laugh:

He has 4 sacks! That's twice as many as ANY REDSKINS HAS!

Thats more than a fourth of what the Skins have as a team (15)!

Btw, he also has 26 solo tackcles, only 4 Skins have more.

I love the way Skins fans are jockin' Ware and Canty!

We did have the best draft........:notworthy

Damarcus Ware? You watching today!

[mookie0720]

When it comes down to it, I'd much rather have a surplus of guys from the draft at a position of need, where you play multiple guys at one time like DL than at H-Back or TE or fullback or whatever you want to call it.

After this season nobody can say we need H-Backs more than DL.

[IrepDC]

It upsets me when I see the Broncos rookies Williams and Foxworth already on the field producing while Rogers is sill working his way onto the field. Atleast Rogers isn't hurt like Antrel Rolle I guess. Other than Cooley it seems like we have'nt had any finds after the first round of the draft, or so it seems.

[fansince62]

it's not about players....it's about scheme!

on the other hand - maybe we too can sign just about the entire defensive line of some other team aduring the off-season and make a quick turn-around. denver didn't do it through the draft alone!

[The Consigliere]

at this point hindsight is 20/20 don't think about it. also, we could have come out of this draft with a star qb. only time will tell.

No it isn't. There are and were a ton of people who took great issue with the draft (including me), and said so at the time. Their (and my) criticisms were and are anything but hindsight. They were based on a firm understanding of team needs, and the cap ramifications of addressing certain positions and needs via free agency, versus the draft.

[georgiaredskin]

No it isn't. There are and were a ton of people who took great issue with the draft (including me), and said so at the time. Their (and my) criticisms were and are anything but hindsight. They were based on a firm understanding of team needs, and the cap ramifications of addressing certain positions and needs via free agency, versus the draft.

And yadda, yadda, yadda. "Oh ye of little faith".

In Gibbs I trust.

[The Consigliere]

Dont ever agree with a Cowboy fan...jesus christ whats goin on round here.

:dallasuck

A Dallas fan was and is likely right, and the homers aren't. Not a surprise there, though I love the Al Pacino/Godfather reference. "Never go against the family, Fredo...."

[TheLongshot]

If that is the case this is were you and I different. I have no problem saying the FO or coaching staff or whatever dropped the ball, just like I had no problem calling Gregg Williams and Blanche total egotistical idiots for not starting Lavar just because he wasn't showing "something" in practice.

And in both cases, you'd be talking about something you seem to know nothing about.

Even the experts admit that you can't judge a draft for about 5 years down the road. You want to judge a draft before the season following it is over.

Just a reminder. The draft isn't about the upcomming year, but for the future. While you would like a guy to make an impact in the first year, more than likely he won't. That's why I hate people who declare people "busts" when they don't immediatly produce.

As for Lavar, even Lavar admitted that he wasn't ready. Maybe you missed that?

Jason

[fpickering]

I think it would be fun to revisit draft day and honestly say who you would have drafted if you were the GM. Be honest and don't look at the players now and change your selections.... just indicate who you would have drafted at the time of the draft.

Here is who I would have taken:

1 (9) WR Mike Williams

1 (25) TE Heath Miller

4 (120) DE Chris Canty

5 (154) DE Bill Swancutt

6 (183) OG Chris Kemoeatu

7 (222) ??

As you can see one of our most important positions is completely missing from this list in CB. I hate that this is the case but could not pass up other players available. I advocated taking Rogers in the 1st but that was based on MW being off the board. With MW there I would not have passed on him. Then I would have taken CB Fabian Washington at 25 but since Heath Miller dropped I could not justify passing him up either. My rationale was that with Williams and Miller, our anemic offense would get an immediate jolt and both players were as close to sure things that you can get. The DEs are self explanatory. The Chris Kemoeatu selection would be for OL depth and to push Dockery. In the 7th I cannot remember wanting one player over another.

[DEFENSEGURU]

at this point hindsight is 20/20 don't think about it. also, we could have come out of this draft with a star qb. only time will tell.

I think thats an excuse and you sound like a homer who defends obvious mistakes to the end.

Hindsight is one thing, but going into the draft it was everybody's FORESIGHT that the Skins biggest weakness was no pass rusher and no big receiver.

All the experts including Kiper had the Skins taking other guys besides a cornerback but as usual the Skins drafted secondary, as they have for the last 14 years. Tom Carter- gone..........Champ Bailey - gone.........Darrell Pounds-gone...Bauman-gone...and whats most interesting of all is the one defensive end we drafted with a #1 pick...he is GONE and doing well in Cleveland. And his replacement, Wynn has FAR less sacks than Kenard Lang does.

The neglect to the defensive line is OBVIOUS...and requires no 20/20 hindsight and it won't require it NEXT year when we have the same conversation.

[Newera]

It's all catching up to us. We need a gm.

[Newera]

I can guarantee you this . . . I bet this year we won't ignore defensive end.

[Newera]

Oh, by the way, I love Kearney. Is he going to be a free agent.

[fansince62]

what's getting tiresome is the yearly excuse machine.

other franchises turn it around. we appear stuck in permanent neutral. 3 years is plenty time to turn the roster around. we will know by next season whteher we have arrived or are mired in permanent organizational mediocrity.