We had such a bad draft

[grhqofb5]

Their value on draft day was not that of a fullback to the Washington Redskins since we don't actually use fullbacks. The value on draft day clearly was that of an H-Back and that of a big running back, both areas of obvious and clear need as much as any other we had in the later rounds, something no fan of this team would suggest to the contrary given it was well known we had no clear H-Back depth and no bruising running back in a system often kindly disposed to both.

Matt Jones, taken by the Jags, was listed as a tight end by CNNSI and projected as a receiver by most teams and played QB in college. Did Jacksonville draft a quarterback, tight end or a receiver with that pick? Obviously they drafted a receiver, which is where they projected him to fit. Because an NFL draft guide projects a player in a position he never played in college doesn't mean that's the position he projects to play in the pros.

The Redskins didn't draft a single fullback because they don't use fullbacks. The Redskins did draft a backup running back and a backup H-Back though. That was clear all along. And, it needs to start being clear to fans of this franchise, else, I'll wonder what they're doing.

I agree with this reasoning. If the Redskins have a need at a position, they draft based upon that need. Follow my A$$-clown hypothetical:

1.) The Redskins create a position in their defensive scheme and call that position "A$$-clown"

2.) The Redskins formulate their image of the ideal "A$$-clown", who possesses above average speed and quickness, along with linebacker-like size. The "A$$-clown" must also possess the ability to learn multiple defensive sets, as he is a "hybrid" type player.

3.) On draft day, there are several players who possess "A$$-clown-like" attributes. Many of these players do not fit the traditional prototype for their positions, but would make ideal "A$$-clowns."

4.) The Redskins draft "A$$-clown #1" and "A$$-clown #2" in the 4th and 7th rounds, based upon their potential to become very effective "A$$-clowns," despite the fact that one was a linebacker and one was a defensive end in college.

5.) Therefore, the Redskins have just drafted two "Ass-clowns" not a defensive end or a linebacker. Its based upon our terminology.

[ImmortalDragon]

Robert McCune is underrated, he will be a great asset later on.

[Art]

Art, Art, Art. This thread is not your finest hour. Going into the draft, needs: DE, DB, WR, QB, DT, LB, RB/HB, OG, TE, S

Carlos Rogers, DB -- check.

Jason Campbell, QB -- check.

Manuel White, FB -- no.

Robert McCune, LB -- no.

Jared Newberry, LB -- no.

Nemo Broughton, FB -- no.

So now you see: we didn't take what we needed. We took what the FO misguidedly thought were the best players available. I'm a big fan of BPA because it keeps you from reaching down and overpaying for "need" player (like Campbell) who would be available later. In this case, however, the FO's poor scouting means that these four guys aren't "needs" and weren't the BPAs. Oh well. Late round picks are always a crapshoot.

I KNEW it would be you .

The Redskins took the best player available according to their board and those players each directly filled an obvious area of need. Whether it matched YOUR areas of need, or my own, is irrelevant. But, it did match those evaluating it internally. And since we don't actually employ a fullback, you know we didn't draft one. You knew that before you arrived. That's why I knew it would be you .

[Art]

Art, you'd make a terrible football coach. When backed up to your own end zone on fourth and 20, punt. If the Skins call 'em fullbacks, the guy is more than justified to call them fullbacks.

In poker, the best way to lose money is to keep playing bad hands. You got a bad hand here. They're fullbacks. No one calls Cooley a fullback because... the Skins don't call him a fullback.

Your real problem, of course, is you get real prickly when anyone points out the foibles of the front office. I mean, why draft FULLBACK Manuel White when Chris Canty, a guy from their own backyard that they should know well and plays a position of crying need, is still on the board? Not a great use of late round picks, IMO.

You still in the business of banning guys for disagreeing with you or touching one of your sacred cows (like Vinny)?

Because we needed an H-Back more than a 3-4 type defensive end with White over Canty, though, you may recall, Canty was a guy I liked . I'm actually only in the business of guys who say they are fans of this football team then pretend a guy who never played fullback and never was expected to play fullback on OUR roster was a wasted pick because some draft guide said he could project at fullback.

[IrepDC]

How many H-Backs are on the field at a time? One sometimes none. How many RB's are on the field at a time? One. How many d-linemen are on the field at a time? Four. How many receiver's are on the field at a time? Usually 2 sometimes up to 4.

My point is we drafted a second string H-Back and a third string RB. The need for depth in those positions is not as big as in others. We had lots of injuries on our d-line last year and other than run support our line was NOT a strength. Springs tied for our lead in sacks with 6. We didn't get pressure LAST YEAR other than blitzes. We needed more line depth and we got none. When lineman and receivers get tired or hurt you need a rotation, if Cooley gets tired we can change the formation to not include him. If Portis gets tired we HAD Betts and Cartwright. AND, our receiver situation was a lot more uncertain than any position imo. We lost BOTH starters and were getting two guys that had never proven they could be go to guys. Coming into the year we had NO proven #1 receivers. As far as McCants, I liked him but Gibbs showed us last year that he didn't want to use him. I don't think the coaches had any intentions to continue with McCants. So they should have drafted another receiver. I'm ok with the 1st round picks but we sucked in the late rounds. Even if guys like White and Broughton become stars we couldn't use them cause they are back ups. Atleast if a D-linemen or WR became a star they could gotten in a rotation. We were stupid in this draft. Point blank.

[REEGSKINS]

I think its quite funny how with the draft, even our first round pick (9th overall) is on the bench most of the game....and we drafted like 8 LB's and a handful of fullbacks when we needed a DE and a receiver....whats with our GM?

i totally agree with you i was just thinking the same thing. we need a general manager. i think we should go beg ron wolfe to come help this franchise. the other day i was listening to a radio show and gill brandt said the cowboys a re getting major contributions from every single draft pick they selected. he also said that one of there starting olineman was an 8th rounder from this years draft. amazing . we draft o line , rbs and lb's and they dont even suit up for the games. the best find that we have drafted was cooley. he was a great steal. sean taylor was a no brainer . we need a gm.

[KillaCam21]

How many H-Backs are on the field at a time? One sometimes none. How many RB's are on the field at a time? One. How many d-linemen are on the field at a time? Four. How many receiver's are on the field at a time? Usually 2 sometimes up to 4.

My point is we drafted a second string H-Back and a third string RB. The need for depth in those positions is not as big as in others. We had lots of injuries on our d-line last year and other than run support our line was NOT a strength. Springs tied for our lead in sacks with 6. We didn't get pressure LAST YEAR other than blitzes. We needed more line depth and we got none. When lineman and receivers get tired or hurt you need a rotation, if Cooley gets tired we can change the formation to not include him. If Portis gets tired we HAD Betts and Cartwright. AND, our receiver situation was a lot more uncertain than any position imo. We lost BOTH starters and were getting two guys that had never proven they could be go to guys. Coming into the year we had NO proven #1 receivers. As far as McCants, I liked him but Gibbs showed us last year that he didn't want to use him. I don't think the coaches had any intentions to continue with McCants. So they should have drafted another receiver. I'm ok with the 1st round picks but we sucked in the late rounds. Even if guys like White and Broughton become stars we couldn't use them cause they are back ups. Atleast if a D-linemen or WR became a star they could gotten in a rotation. We were stupid in this draft. Point blank.

That's pretty much how I would have responded, but I think you covered everything.

[fpickering]

NFL.com lists them both as FBs. If anyone has insight on why they do this, please let me know.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round4

http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round7

Regardless of what position these guys played in college or what position they came here to play, we were pretty strong in the H back and RB positions. I think that the issue here is that people were disappointed that we did not draft Canty.

[Art]

NFL.com lists them both as FBs. If anyone has insight on why they do this, please let me know.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round4

http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round7

Regardless of what position these guys played in college or what position they came here to play, we were pretty strong in the H back and RB positions. I think that the issue here is that people were disappointed that we did not draft Canty.

Maybe the same reason Cooley leads vote getters at fullback, a position he doesn't play. No one on our team plays that position because we don't employ that position, so, no one on our team can play that position. Did you really need insight as to that if you're a fan of this team? Seriously, what's wrong with you people?

White was being groomed for H-Back before he got hurt. The NFL doesn't officially list an H-Back position. Nemo is a single back in the backfield, just like every other back we have. That's what he was in college too. It's possible he has never been a lead blocker in his life, though I'd have to check on that. You can call him anything you like, but you know where he doesn't play. He doesn't play at fullback because we don't play a fullback. Sometimes our H-Back lines up in that position and may be used in a lead blocking position, because he's a hybrid of multiple positions. Redskin fans do grasp the concept that in an offense that doesn't use a fullback it's impossible to have a fullback, right?

Riggins was listed as a fullback too, but we know that's not what he was.

[Mister Happy]

Did somebody really say we should have drafted Mike Williams?

[fpickering]

I agree with you on this one. For the Cowboy fans I was chatting with at the time, it was just funny to see Washington draft its second "fullback" (based on the information at hand to the non-Redskins diehard at the time, I do understand your argument Art) in Broughton.

However, I think an argument could be made that drafting White in the fourth was a mistake for a team that has holes to fill elsewhere. If I remember right, Chris Canty was still on the board at the time, but I'm not totally sure.

Canty was on the board when we picked in the 4th and some fans were of the opinion that it was a mistake. However to be fair, that seems like a short term opinion and we will need to wait a few years to really know if it was.

[Art]

How many H-Backs are on the field at a time? One sometimes none. How many RB's are on the field at a time? One. How many d-linemen are on the field at a time? Four. How many receiver's are on the field at a time? Usually 2 sometimes up to 4.

My point is we drafted a second string H-Back and a third string RB. The need for depth in those positions is not as big as in others. We had lots of injuries on our d-line last year and other than run support our line was NOT a strength. Springs tied for our lead in sacks with 6. We didn't get pressure LAST YEAR other than blitzes. We needed more line depth and we got none. When lineman and receivers get tired or hurt you need a rotation, if Cooley gets tired we can change the formation to not include him. If Portis gets tired we HAD Betts and Cartwright. AND, our receiver situation was a lot more uncertain than any position imo. We lost BOTH starters and were getting two guys that had never proven they could be go to guys. Coming into the year we had NO proven #1 receivers. As far as McCants, I liked him but Gibbs showed us last year that he didn't want to use him. I don't think the coaches had any intentions to continue with McCants. So they should have drafted another receiver. I'm ok with the 1st round picks but we sucked in the late rounds. Even if guys like White and Broughton become stars we couldn't use them cause they are back ups. Atleast if a D-linemen or WR became a star they could gotten in a rotation. We were stupid in this draft. Point blank.

No team is stupid in any draft 10 games into the following season. One would be stupid to suggest otherwise. Point blank. I think you'd even agree, despite your assertion otherwise. Injuries do occur at many positions and it thins out areas in many cases. At receiver we were essentially set 1-4 and largely set, heading into the season, at No. 5. We shouldn't have drafted another receiver we knew would likely have no chance at making the roster.

We knew a big horse in the backfield would likely make the roster if he could play. We knew linebackers would make the roster if they could play. We knew a backup H-Back could make the roster if he could play. We probably even could have used a defensive lineman who could play given N. Clemons and Jones have gotten some time this year.

Unfortunately we're not a team that's going to keep Betts all that much longer given his contract situation and value to another team, though I hope he stays to be certain. Nemo was a solid pick to groom a bigger back as a backup and we'll see if he's a guy who can make it. In a few years we may hate this draft or remember it as the foundation for a lot of winning teams. Neither case will make it more wise or less wise than it was on the day we made the picks.

Each pick made for obvious, clear positions of need.

[The Full Monty]

We drafted Manuel White over Christ Canty and I think that was a major blunder as Canty would have been turned into a real beast by Blache and Williams and he was available. White was not the right draft choice. This is not hindsight. I watched a ton of Canty in college and was screaming my head off when we let him pass.

Campbell will turn out to be a great pick, and Rogers was a smart pick too.

But passing on Chris Canty was the greatest mistake in an otherwise solid draft. I'll never be convinced otherwise.

[TODD]

2) impact pass rusher

Do you know how risky it is to draft "an impact pass rusher"? Damnit. Look at Ryan Sims (top 10). Courtney Brown (#1). Charles Grant (top 10). Gerard Warren (#2). Kenechi Udeze (projected top 10) The lsit goes on and on and on.

There just aren't many good ones out there. There's been one surefire in the last 7 years, and that was Julius Peppers. Defensive end is the most high risk and failing high draft pick position in the NFL.

[Mooka]

Because we needed an H-Back more than a 3-4 type defensive end with White over Canty, though, you may recall, Canty was a guy I liked . I'm actually only in the business of guys who say they are fans of this football team then pretend a guy who never played fullback and never was expected to play fullback on OUR roster was a wasted pick because some draft guide said he could project at fullback.

I see what your saying about Manual. He was obviously brought in to be an H-Back, because of his ability to run, catch and block.

Don't confuse things though, Manual lined up as a FB alot in the Bruin's 2-back system with him and Maurice Drew.

Manual lined up as a Tailback, a lead blocking FB, and a single back in both passing and running packages. He was a work-horse for the Bruins, which is probably why he had some injuries.

This guy has an amazing amount of talent, but he slipped due to being injury prone. We took a gamble on him and he already got hurt, so I can see why people are disapointed with the pick. Hopefully he can rehab and make a contribution to this team next year because he's really a perfect fit in Gibbs offense as an H-Back with his versatility.

[FuriousD]

Here's an impromptu board rule.

The next -- and every -- person who says we drafted two fullbacks when neither guy played fullback in college and neither guy projects to play fullback in the pros gets banned for sheer idiocy. If you have a problem with the draft at least be honest enough to evaluate the players we got and not the fiction you create.

Your standing there at NFL farms with a hundred of your closest friends and Art, staring at a pig. You know it's a pig because it looks like a pig. Smells like a pig. Sounds like a pig. It's a pig, dammit!

And everyone of those close friends of yours, ..... well, at least the ones with above 70 IQ's and a capacity to reason would agree that there's very little doubt about it, ..... it's a pig.

Everyone except, .......... Art. :no: Art insists it's a football because that's what it projects to be in it's next life!

:paranoid:

[rdavis2005]

There will be some good pash rushing DE's in the second rd (Hali, Tapp, Wyche, Henderson, Lawson etc) this year. This is a deep draft at that position. We can't address everything with one draft. Broughton maybe be needed more next year to replace Betts if he leaves via free agency.

[Cowboy4ever]

Do you know how risky it is to draft "an impact pass rusher"? Damnit. Look at Ryan Sims (top 10). Courtney Brown (#1). Charles Grant (top 10). Gerard Warren (#2). Kenechi Udeze (projected top 10) The lsit goes on and on and on.

There just aren't many good ones out there. There's been one surefire in the last 7 years, and that was Julius Peppers. Defensive end is the most high risk and failing high draft pick position in the NFL.

Grant had double digit sacks the previous 2 years.

[fpickering]

Because we needed an H-Back more than a 3-4 type defensive end with White over Canty, though, you may recall, Canty was a guy I liked . I'm actually only in the business of guys who say they are fans of this football team then pretend a guy who never played fullback and never was expected to play fullback on OUR roster was a wasted pick because some draft guide said he could project at fullback.

I respectfully disagree with you. In my opinion, we needed a legitimate pass rushing DE more than we needed a 2nd string H-Back.

[Art]

Your standing there at NFL farms with a hundred of your closest friends and Art, staring at a pig. You know it's a pig because it looks like a pig. Smells like a pig. Sounds like a pig. It's a pig, dammit!

And everyone of those close friends of yours, ..... well, at least the ones with above 70 IQ's and a capacity to reason would agree that there's very little doubt about it, ..... it's a pig.

Everyone except, .......... Art. :no: Art insists it's a football because that's what it projects to be in it's next life!

:paranoid:

This conversation does come down to something that simple, except, I'm the only guy actually addressing what White and Nemo actually were drafted to play for our team while there are too many who say because CNNSI said he could be a fullback in the NFL that he's a fullback in a system in D.C. which doesn't USE a fullback.

Understand, I'm not talking about projections. I'm talking actualities. White and Nemo can't play a position that doesn't exist in our offense. They can, however, play other positions. Seventy IQs should know that, don't you think?

[Art]

I respectfully disagree with you. In my opinion, we needed a legitimate pass rushing DE more than we needed a 2nd string H-Back.

We have a legitimate pass rushing DE in Clemons. Canty isn't a legitimate pass rushing DE. Canty projects as a two-gap style lineman which we don't really have here. Again, I liked the idea of getting him as he was a player I recognized and thought could evolve some. He might do that in Dallas. But, you can't fully equate the perception of need for a pass rushing lineman with Chris Canty, who, by most accounts, would seem to project to be about exactly what Wynn and Daniels are as pros at the defensive end spot if he works out to his fullest potential.

But, we're talking the second day of the draft. I don't know of a team that found a legitimate pass rushing DE on Day 2. Can you show me the one?

[kingchris626]

I still think we should have drafted Mike Williams

[IrepDC]

I don't know about you all but Chris Canty sure looked like a legit pass rusher when I watched him speed rushing past Chris Samuels in the Dallas game. He also got past Jansen quite a few times, but, I'll cut Jansen some slack since he didn't have thumbs.

The Dallas game was actually the first time I heard of Canty. I was like, "Who is this rookie embarrassing our 'all pro' tackles." He looked better than Dallas' other picks imo. Then I found out WE passed on this guy in the draft I thought crap. I honestly don't know if Manuel White will turn out to be a great H-Back someday, and he may, but I sure would've liked to have Canty here rushing QB's NOW.

[cnhnyy]

We have a legitimate pass rushing DE in Clemons. Canty isn't a legitimate pass rushing DE. Canty projects as a two-gap style lineman which we don't really have here. Again, I liked the idea of getting him as he was a player I recognized and thought could evolve some. He might do that in Dallas. But, you can't fully equate the perception of need for a pass rushing lineman with Chris Canty, who, by most accounts, would seem to project to be about exactly what Wynn and Daniels are as pros at the defensive end spot if he works out to his fullest potential.

But, we're talking the second day of the draft. I don't know of a team that found a legitimate pass rushing DE on Day 2. Can you show me the one?

Sack leader Robert Matis was a 5th rounder. iggles 5th rounder rookie Cole has had five sacks so far also.

BTW, Dr. Z likes Canty even more than Marcus Spears. Canty will be a beast for years to come. As girls' fifth DE, he has 1.5 sacks, 20 tkles, 1 forced fumbles in limited playing time. He is not Freeney/Matis/250-lb-rushing-DE type. He is big (295 lb) and good on both run and pass-rush.

[skins4eva]

We have a legitimate pass rushing DE in Clemons. Canty isn't a legitimate pass rushing DE. Canty projects as a two-gap style lineman which we don't really have here. Again, I liked the idea of getting him as he was a player I recognized and thought could evolve some. He might do that in Dallas. But, you can't fully equate the perception of need for a pass rushing lineman with Chris Canty, who, by most accounts, would seem to project to be about exactly what Wynn and Daniels are as pros at the defensive end spot if he works out to his fullest potential.

But, we're talking the second day of the draft. I don't know of a team that found a legitimate pass rushing DE on Day 2. Can you show me the one?

Art, sometimes I don't even know where to begin. Did you major in semantics in college? I happen to disagree with you that White and Nemo were picks that filled a need. A glaring abyss, cavernous in its magnitude was our deficiency on the d-line. The original posters main point was that one of our most pressing weaknesses was along the d-line. And how many d-lineman did we draft, Art? It's ok, you can say it--none. So why are you going off on this guy with your semantic :censored:. Don't you sometimes wonder why every other poster is arguing against you? Let me guess, it's because they're all wrong.

Also, Clemons is not what I would call a "legitimate" pass rushing de. He's shown some skills, but he's way below the level of legitimate.

:sdsucks: :sdsucks: :sdsucks: