Cskin Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 What was our economy like before Bush and the repunlicans (neo-cons) gained power? Chugging right along until three airplanes became missles and completely shocked a nation into recession. What has happened to the deficit? How about our forign policy? The deficit grew as a result of trying to protect ourselves, not to mention fight two wars. I know laying down and playing dead is cheaper..... but the SOUTH is having none of that! Foreign policy.... it's about time we started calling a spade a spade and pushing around our influence. If you think we're going to cowtoe to the corrupt French, underhanded Germans, or conniving Russia... think again. How were we preceived in the world? How about at home, how many people have health care? Well... before Bush we were seen as naive and bumbling idiots... and examples can be easily seen in North Korea's secret Nuke program that Clinton made him promise he wouldn't build in exchange for food and Hussein's continued sharades while resolution after resolution was passed by the UN. Healthcare... well.... find in the consitution where it says that the govt. shall provide healthcare to all it's citzens and we'll talk. Keep giving people stuff we won't be able to take away... and we'll see what the deficit looks like in ten years. I say grow the economy, cut people's taxes, get the govt.'s hand out of all of our wallets and purses and they'll be plenty of money for healthcare. How many people are being laid off of work? How many different social services have been taken away? 5.2 % unemployment kind of deflates the whole layed off thing. Now, if you're wanting the govt. to provide everyone a $50K a year job.... on the current path it's right around the corner if the left gets it's way. Social services... simply stop giving them and force people to make it on their own. We keep giving more social services and we'll make Europe look like Utopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 1. Convince them that Nowheresville, Alabama is not a primary target of terrorists. 2. Convince them that education, war, environment, economics, social security and Iraq are more important than two guys getting married. How to convince them? Who knows. Probably will never happen, but hey...one can only hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Huly Why do you vote for who you want? You believe in their platform. I voted for the person's platform I believe in. No harm no foul. If you look at any of the thousands of abortion threads you will see I am anti abortion so why should I vote pro choice when I do not believe in it? That is just one of the many examples I can give you. I do not force my values on anyone. If someone ask my honest oppinion then I will tell them but I do not shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. After reading many of your post in other threads and this one you seem to be the person trying to shove your ideas on others and your post are the most negative. You need to look at yourself before you try to influence anyone else to be a Dem or Liberal or whatever else. "so why should I vote pro choice when I do not believe in it? " Because you are making a moral decision for another person, at best it is paternalistic, at worst tyrannical. Sorry but being loud is not the same as forcing my morality on others. I like pizza doesn't mean I am going to make it the national food. I will speak very loudly on why others should like pizza but I will never force or try to legislate it into your only food. Now in the case of people that I disagree with, in this case you, you say very quietly and even politely that you like hamburgers, but you vote for politicians that will make it the only food in America. Now I may be more loud, but I will never force my ideas on others, I only ask the same in return. This is exactly what the "Moral" people are incapable of doing. If you have the time please list more examples, I am curious about this so called "morality." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by jrockster77 1. Convince them that Nowheresville, Alabama is not a primary target of terrorists. 2. Convince them that education, war, environment, economics, social security and Iraq are more important than two guys getting married. How to convince them? Who knows. Probably will never happen, but hey...one can only hope. Has it ever occured to Democrats that the reason why are losing is not because of the radical right, but because of the fact that they have failed to capture enough of the moderate middle? The irony is that alot of the moderate middle might agree with that list, but are turned away from the left because they stand there championing these issues, yet like the boy who cried wolf many who are sought out and investigated have nothing to show for it. Rhetoric at the end of the day is nothing if there is no action to show for it. The democrats don't even need to 'recapture' the south, or any of the radical vote. They simply need to reach out to the right leaning moderate, or the left leaning moderate. This is what Clinton did expertly. There are no more radical right's in this country than in the mid 90's, just more of them showing up to vote and less of the left's base. Why? Because the left's base hasn't been that effective in getting their message out, or even when the message is out it's not something they wish to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by TheSteve Has it ever occured to Democrats that the reason why are losing is not because of the radical right, but because of the fact that they have failed to capture enough of the moderate middle? The irony is that alot of the moderate middle might agree with that list, but are turned away from the left because they stand there championing these issues, yet like the boy who cried wolf many who are sought out and investigated have nothing to show for it. Rhetoric at the end of the day is nothing if there is no action to show for it. The democrats don't even need to 'recapture' the south, or any of the radical vote. They simply need to reach out to the right leaning moderate, or the left leaning moderate. This is what Clinton did expertly. There are no more radical right's in this country than in the mid 90's, just more of them showing up to vote and less of the left's base. Why? Because the left's base hasn't been that effective in getting their message out, or even when the message is out it's not something they wish to hear. I completely agree with your post, TheSteve. I was just being a little facetious....sorry. Oh, and I forgot number 3 on my list: 3. Put someone other than Frankenstein against the Republicans for president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by jrockster77 Oh, and I forgot number 3 on my list: 3. Put someone other than Frankestein against the Republicans for president. :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Because you are making a moral decision for another person, at best it is paternalistic, at worst tyrannical. Isn't that what the would-be mother is doing for the infant inside her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Hah "their morals" what a load of.... we both know when people say morals they really want to force other people to do what they think is right. That is why we have drug laws, sodomy laws, drinking age, gay marriage etc. None of those thing hurt the people that don't use them, but it isn't enough for the Morality Police to just not partake in those things they have to stop others too. Wait you have a problem with minors not being allowed to drink...? Does that mean that kids should be allowed to go out and buy alcohol and get drunk...no matter how young they are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huly Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by visionary Wait you have a problem with minors not being allowed to drink...? Does that mean that kids should be allowed to go out and buy alcohol and get drunk...no matter how young they are? He is a minor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huly Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Liberty, I am not going to argue with you. I am going to vote for what I believe in and that is all that matters. I am not going to bend my beliefs and values because someone else wants me too. Before I make a stand on any issue I look at both sides. I do not judge people for their beliefs but I am NOT going to lower my own values for anyone. Why should I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by visionary Wait you have a problem with minors not being allowed to drink...? Does that mean that kids should be allowed to go out and buy alcohol and get drunk...no matter how young they are? Ican smoke, give my life for the country, and vote, but I can't dtink. Originally posted by Huly He is a minor! technically I am an adult Originally posted by Huly Liberty, I am not going to argue with you. I am going to vote for what I believe in and that is all that matters. I am not going to bend my beliefs and values because someone else wants me too. Before I make a stand on any issue I look at both sides. I do not judge people for their beliefs but I am NOT going to lower my own values for anyone. Why should I? I think you are afraid to have your beliefs challenged. That is very unfortunate, but I can't make you come out of your shell only you can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by TheSteve Exactly. Because the black middle class vote is already in their back pocket. Take them for granted! I didn't mention the black vote at all because the thread is about winning back the south. In order to win back the south the democratic party needs to gain with white middle class males. The democrats don't take blacks for granted at all, that's a stupid lie put out by the GOP. All you need to do is look at which party takes their fear of racism seriously. I'm sure the knee jerk reaction is "what racism" and by doing so you'll prove my point. The right wing ignores the concern of minorities completely and laughs off thier fears. Then again if might have something to do with the fact filing a friend of the court with Bob Jones School, campaigning there on 2000, but of course managing to miss the NAACP because they aren’t as important as a unaccredited loony tunes school with a recent history of teaching racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Dog Night Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Huly Bush= Morals I realize that you were stating how the media summed up the election, but I couldn't help myself...stating that Bush=morals is like equating Clinton to chastity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Destino, if the Dems don't take their votes for granted, then why do some blacks feel like they are taken for granted? Certainly these people must have been brainwashed by the right and can't think for themselves? Seems to be a popular argument for why another side is wrong "oh, they're just part of the liberal/conservative brainwashing thats going on in this country...lies lies LIES" god forbid anyone thinks for themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff Destino, if the Dems don't take their votes for granted, then why do some blacks feel like they are taken for granted? Certainly these people must have been brainwashed by the right and can't think for themselves? Seems to be a popular argument for why another side is wrong "oh, they're just part of the liberal/conservative brainwashing thats going on in this country...lies lies LIES" god forbid anyone thinks for themselves... Why do SOME feel that way? Because blacks are as diverse a people as everyone else and not all blacks will agree on anything. As for the taking them for granted thing, I stand by what I said that that is a stupid lie. The democrats have lost votes among whites because they seem too concerned with the needs of minority voters NOT the other way around. This latest tactic is just a cheap attempt to steal a few votes without actually having to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Yet, my side keeps winning elections. Now, I've seen you say some remarkably stupid things before, but that just about takes the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Mufumonk Now, I've seen you say some remarkably stupid things before, but that just about takes the cake. Then you obviously dont read most of your own posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Prove to me that they don't take the minority vote for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Liberty you are such a hyprocite, when you say you do not want others to impose their morals on you, well what do you think you are doing to Huly right now, the same thing, you are telling what she should do and that it is wrong, but that is your opinion and only your opinion. You need to wake up and get out of your private little shell of a life and see the real world. You have no clue on anythind and it is sad since you are very bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by jbooma Liberty you are such a hyprocite, when you say you do not want others to impose their morals on you, well what do you think you are doing to Huly right now, the same thing, you are telling what she should do and that it is wrong, but that is your opinion and only your opinion. You need to wake up and get out of your private little shell of a life and see the real world. You have no clue on anythind and it is sad since you are very bright. That's not true at all. I don't agree with much of what Liberty is saying but he is in effect arguing for the side of free choice. Saying that people should be allowed to choose for themselves isn't imposing anything at all. It's the opposite. The truth of the matter is people are too scared to come out and say "yes I do want to impose what I think is right on everyone else." I for one agree with a drinking age, and I freely acknowledge that I am imposing this on everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Destino That's not true at all. I don't agree with much of what Liberty is saying but he is in effect arguing for the side of free choice. Saying that people should be allowed to choose for themselves isn't imposing anything at all. It's the opposite. The truth of the matter is people are too scared to come out and say "yes I do want to impose what I think is right on everyone else." I for one agree with a drinking age, and I freely acknowledge that I am imposing this on everyone. Destino telling something they are wrong is the same as imposing his morals. No one is imposing any morals on you. If someone were to come to you and say you must believe in abortion, well now that is imposing their morals. No one is making you do anything you do now want to, unless you decide to change. Laws are not morals, laws are decided by the ones we elect to lead us, they are not morals, period. If you can't live in a world of laws then get out. You can not have complete freedom or you will have total anarchy, and you know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by jbooma Destino telling something they are wrong is the same as imposing his morals. No one is imposing any morals on you. If someone were to come to you and say you must believe in abortion, well now that is imposing their morals. No one is making you do anything you do now want to, unless you decide to change. I disagree. You can tell me I'm wrong about everything all day long but it imposes nothing on me because I can ignore you. But if you pass a law forcing me to behave the way you think is right, then everything changes. Suddenly I have to behave your way or I'm punished. That is imposing your beliefs. Originally posted by jbooma Laws are not morals, laws are decided by the ones we elect to lead us, they are not morals, period. If you can't live in a world of laws then get out. You can not have complete freedom or you will have total anarchy, and you know that. Laws and morality often intersect. Sodomy laws for example are based on Christian concepts of morality. You can write the word "period" after a untrue statement a million times and you'd still be wrong. Also I can live in a world of laws just fine but I'm not going to pretend things aren't what they are. We do impose our ways on others and pretending this isn't true so we feel better about it is nonsense. You're claiming that having an opinion that someone is wrong is imposing but passing laws is not, that is crazy. Also more freedom is what this country is supposed to be about. If you can't deal with that then you get out. Feel free to move to Austrailia where the regulate speech, or France where they impose a non-religious dress code. There are plenty of places to choose from that aren't supposed to be based on more freedom then not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Destino That is what this country is supposed to be about. If you can't deal with that then you get out. Feel free to move to Austrailia where the regulate speech, or France where they impose a non-religious dress code. There are plenty of places to choose from that aren't supposed to be based on more freedom then not. I am not the one that is unhappy here I also don't think anyone has the right to tell others they are wrong, since your are imposing your morals because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. Destino it is the same thing no matter how you want to try and spin it. If Liberty and you want the freedom then stop telling others they are wrong By they way you can't have freedom without laws, a lawless state is a state out of control and no direction and no freedom because it can be taking away from you by anyone that wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Destino That's not true at all. I don't agree with much of what Liberty is saying but he is in effect arguing for the side of free choice. Saying that people should be allowed to choose for themselves isn't imposing anything at all. It's the opposite. The truth of the matter is people are too scared to come out and say "yes I do want to impose what I think is right on everyone else." I for one agree with a drinking age, and I freely acknowledge that I am imposing this on everyone. I will let Destino make my point since you are obviously ignoring the content of my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by jbooma I am not the one that is unhappy here I'm not unhappy either. But I'd be happier if people didn't think every bright idea they had should be forced down my throat by way of congress. Originally posted by jbooma I also don't think anyone has the right to tell others they are wrong, since your are imposing your morals because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. Destino it is the same thing no matter how you want to try and spin it. If Liberty and you want the freedom then stop telling others they are wrong You don't know what freedom means. In your world telling you that you look goofy in yellow pants is bad, but outlawing them and saying nothing to you in the first place is good. Originally posted by jbooma By they way you can't have freedom without laws, a lawless state is a state out of control and no direction and no freedom because it can be taking away from you by anyone that wishes. No one at all is saying get rid of laws. I am no anarchist, all I'm saying is that maybe we have enough laws governing our behavior and we should leave that alone for a few decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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