Chalk Talk: Dissecting the Duck, Skins Tie Ins (GRANTLAND Article + Discussion)

Going to try something different here. I'm going to utilize an article from Grantland on the Chip Kelly "Duck" offense, dissect it and apply it to what we currently have going on. The article in Grantland is great, so I highly suggest checking it out here: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8631595/the-success-chip-kelly-oregon-ducks-offense-more-familiar-seems

Everything that I put in the quote boxes is strictly from Grantland. The material before and after is my editorial. So please keep that in mind.

"We spread the defense so they will declare their defensive look for the offensive linemen," Kelly explained at that same clinic. "The more offensive personnel we put in the box, the more defenders the defense will put in there, and it becomes a cluttered mess." Twenty years ago, Kelly's high school coach ran the unbalanced, two–tight end power-I, so he could execute old-school, fundamental football and run the ball down his opponent's throat. Today, Kelly spreads the defense and operates out of an up-tempo no-huddle so he can do the exact same thing.

This is the classic "new school" approach to football. Keeping teams from stacking the box to defend the run. We use a similar concept. The more receivers there are, the more players that can't be inside the box to play run. This works extremely well with elements of zone read and play action. Play action passes can be lethal from spread looks because some defensive players are hell bent on stopping the run, so they fly with the run fake because they're out of position to stop the run. And that's when you hit them over the top.

For all of the hype surrounding Oregon games, Oregon practices might be even better. Oregon practices are filled with blaring music and players sprinting from drill to drill. Coaches interact with players primarily through whistles, air horns, and semi-communicative grunts. Operating under the constraint of NCAA-imposed practice time limits, Kelly's sessions are designed around one thing: maximizing time. Kelly's solution is simple: The practice field is for repetitions. Traditional "coaching" — correcting mistakes, showing a player how to step one way or another, or lecturing on this or that football topic — is better served in the film room.

The up-tempo, no-huddle offense ends up benefiting in practice as much as it does in games. Without time wasted huddling, players get many more practice repetitions, leading to increased efficiency on Saturdays. As Sam Snead once said, "practice is putting brains in your muscles," and Oregon's up-tempo practices are all about making Kelly's system second nature.

This is a sound approach. More reps means easier recognition. Which means you play "faster". Not necessarily how fast you run, but how fast you process information. When you practice a situation many times, it becomes second nature to react to it with a mastery level of repetitions. Chip Kelly opts to gain a mastery level of tactile experience. One thing I've experienced when watching practices at any level of football is that when there is "down time" (time that a portion of players not doing anything) you tend to see less focus. The players start talking about their personal lives, their love life... Whatever. But you lose focus. Even if a coach gets after them and tries to get them back into practice, their focus has already shifted.

Kelly's practices don't allow for that focus to shift. It's really a great way to get the most out of your athletes.

When the games do begin, there's no question that the no-huddle makes Oregon's attack more dangerous, but it's a common misconception that they have only one supersonic speed. The Ducks use plenty of their superfast tempo, but they actually have three settings: red light (slow, quarterback looks to sideline for guidance while the coach can signal in a new play), yellow light (medium speed, quarterback calls the play and can make his own audibles at the line, including various check-with-me plays), and green light (superfast).

This is an excellent point. That said, even their "red light" is somewhat quick even though the author uses the word "slow". I think that word was put in within the context of the general Duck offense. They don't give you a lot of time to think about things. And by utilizing the "green light" from time to time, they make defenses hurry to the line of scrimmage, thus tiring them out. So it's kind of a slap in the face when you make them hustle to the line and then take your time to call a play and execute it. That also prevents defenses from subbing. If they see that the defense is tired and needs to sub they "green light" it now and fly around the field. It's an exhausting pace to keep and something that their personnel's athletic ability dictates.

It requires a specific type of player to execute. But, that said, I have to admit my own error here. I was under the impression that their linemen were all somewhere between 265 and 285 through assumptions and clinic talks. That is actually quite false. Taking a look at their roster, they have several linemen that sit at 300+ pounds. The up tempo "green" light offense is a lot of moving for a team to take part in. Those guys have to be in great shape to do it.

If you're interested on viewing their roster, go here: http://www.goducks.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=500&SPID=233&SPSID=3378

"If there are two high safeties [i.e., players responsible for deep pass defense], mathematically there can only be five defenders in the box. With one high safety, there can be six in the box. If there is no high safety, there can be seven in the box," Kelly explained at the 2011 spring Nike Coach of the Year Clinic. The easiest case is if the defense plays with two deep defenders: "With two high safeties, we should run the ball most of the time. We have five blockers and they have five defenders."

As Vanderbilt's excellent offensive line coach, Herb Hand, recently told me, "I tell my offensive line that if the defense plays two safeties deep, it's like spitting in your face — it's a lack of respect for your run game." Oregon's run game doesn't suffer from any lack of respect; as a result, they rarely face two-deep defenses except on obvious passing downs.

When a team brings that extra defender into the box, the calculus for the offense changes. "If the defense has one high safety and six defenders in the box, the quarterback has to be involved in the play," Kelly explained. "He has to read one of the defenders, in effect blocking him. We can block five defenders and read the sixth one." Marcus Mariota, Oregon's dynamic freshman quarterback, has been an excellent blocker without hitting anyone at all.

The middle quote was put in, because as an offensive line coach, it made me smile.

However, the first and third quotes are quite pertinent. When a team is playing two deep safeties Chip Kelly explains that there can only be five defenders in the box. Here's how: The two safeties are deep. They are not in run support at the snap of the football. The two corners will be out on receivers. The two end men on the line of scrimmage (in a 3-4 it would be your outside backers. In the 4-3 it would be your defensive ends) are always outside of the box. They are your edge defenders. A defensive coordinator could kick them inside to play the inside run, but that's dangerous if you don't have a guy that can play sideline to sideline VERY quickly in the middle because it exposes the perimeter of your defense and a well coached team like Oregon would love for you to give them that look. They're far too fast and athletic to be caught on a regular basis running off tackle.

The third quote is interesting as well. When the strong safety drops into the box, you're essentially adding another guy to block. In most spread looks, there are five blockers inside, and it's your linemen. In a traditional look with a tight end and a fullback you have seven men to account for defenders, but with those guys in the defense can also pack it in, so that advantage is somewhat negated.

So since Oregon only has five linemen in these looks, how can they block the sixth defender in the box? As the article explains, the zone read comes into play. This is where RG3 has had some success for the Redskins, and how Chip Kelly's "Duck" offense makes its money. The quarterback will read a defender, generally the end man on the LOS. If that defender crashes hard to chase the running back, the quarterback will keep it and attack the perimeter. If that defender sits down, the quarterback hands the ball to the running back. Either way, that end man on the line of scrimmage (3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE) is accounted for or "blocked" by the quarterback without the quarterback ever touching him. You should be familiar with that concept, the Redskins have shown it quite often.

Chip Kelly's scheme is not traditional, and one of the areas where Kelly is a master is in messing with a defense's efforts at gap control. Coaches have long used a variety of methods to manipulate a defense's keys and assignments (Jim Harbaugh is an example of a non-spread offense coach who has always done an excellent job of this, both at Stanford and now with the 49ers), from using unbalanced sets to extra tight ends to lead-blocking fullbacks and pulling linemen who can "remove" and "add" gaps that must be defended. Kelly uses those tactics, too, and they're blended into a mix of deadly spread concepts and old-fashioned, excellent blocking.

There are excellent images at Grantland to augment the above point. Again, I highly recommend going to the link and checking them out. Here it is again: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8631595/the-success-chip-kelly-oregon-ducks-offense-more-familiar-seems

Defenses try to account for every traditional gap. Gaps, for those who aren't as demented and into football as I am, are the areas between linemen. Between the center and guard to either side is the "A" gap. Between the guard and tackle on either side is the "B" gap. Between the tackle and where the tight end would be is the "C" gap. And outside the tight end is the "D" gap. Those are traditional gaps. Kelly screws with teams ability to defend UNtraditional gaps.

One way he does it, as the article at Grantland shows, is the "Zone Read Triple Option". Again, there's a great explanation posted in the article, go check it out.

But the concept of the play, while complex, has a simple purpose. Take what the defense gives you. They are creating an "E" gap essentially in this play, and rendering the backside defenders somewhat useless. The first "handoff" is designed to test the D's traditional gap control. The option aspect of the play makes the quarterback the C/D gap attack man and the tailback the "E" gap attack man.

here are some defenses — like Cal's last weekend — that decide the best way of slowing down the Ducks is by completely selling out to defend the run. Kelly has an answer for this, too. As he has explained, "If there are seven defenders in the box, there are only four defenders to play the pass. It is difficult to play man-to-man without help all day long." The first thing Kelly does if a defense entirely loads the box for the run is to recall the lesson he (indirectly) learned from his old high school coach — make the defense cover the spread receivers, typically by throwing them quick passes and screens.

You see a major aspect of this in our current offense. When defenses decide they want to load the box, we do exactly as Kelly sells, throw quick passes and screens. Some media pundits have been a little hard on RG3 due to all the short passes he throws. This is why he does it. Our receivers are one on one at times and the best way to attack is the short pass.

Eventually, the goal is to make the defensive backs and linebackers fly up to stop the run and the quick pass and then hit them over the top. This is an element to our offense that has yet to really see success. RG3 has an accurate deep ball, but we're not giving him enough opportunity to hit it. It could be due to the defense's we've faced playing sound coverage and not falling into the trap the Redskins are attempting to set. Or it could be play design. Who knows. The only thing we can really understand is that we haven't gotten this element of the offense rolling yet, but we're also in year one of RG3.

This misunderstands Kelly's attack. "I look for a quarterback who can run and not a running back who can throw. I want a quarterback who can beat you with his arm," Kelly explained at a coaches clinic in the spring of 2011, emphatically adding, "We are not a Tim Tebow type of quarterback team. I am not going to run my quarterback 20 times on power runs."

This quote could make many Redskins fans giddy. This phrase 100% accurately describes our quarterback. Griffin is better than any quarterback that Chip Kelly has ever coached, and he's definitely as Kelly describes his ideal quarterback, "a quarterback who can run and not a running back who can throw".

Time will undoubtedly tell whether Kelly's offense can work in the NFL, but my vote is that it will. It would require Kelly finding the right players, but a Chip Kelly–coached NFL team would win for the same reasons that the Chip Kelly–coached college team wins. Behind the speed, the spread, the Daft Punk helmets, and the flashy uniforms, Oregon ultimately wins with old-fashioned, fundamental, run-it-up-the-gut football. I think everyone, even fans of the spread offense, can appreciate that.

I absolutely think Kelly could be successful in the NFL. I think the "Duck" offense will run into some road blocks along the way, especially considering that the speed of NFL defenses is a lot faster, and, around these parts, the zone read has become somewhat passe in regards to how many times Griffin has taken hits. Our fans haven't been happy with that aspect of the offense because of the clobbering Griff takes.

Whether or not Kelly is a fit for Washington is something that could be debated ad nauseum. We still have a head coach, and for my money I think we'll have the same guy at the helm next year provided no catastrophic ending to our season. But there are certainly elements of the "Duck" that we could utilize in our scheme.

So which is it 'Skins fans? Do you want RG3 to be allowed to run around, use the zone read and short passes to set up the bomb? Or do we want RG3 to be a more traditional quarterback? He can succeed doing both, he has the physical gifts and the mental prowess. But where do we as fans want to go? That's the real question behind this, not Chip Kelly vs. Mike Shanahan. But the answer to that question will begin to show which direction our fanbase leans.

Like I said in an a different post, chip kelly would be the only college coach that I would want to coach the redskins if a change was to be made. I think that he could have alot of success in the nfl. Good Post

Great stuff Dawg. Personally, I think RGIII would be downright scary in this offense. It's tailor made for him. I just don't know how he could be stopped in Kelly's offense. Even in a spread offense you could utilize the read option, but with more open space to run you are looking at significant gains with III's legs.

No way you would go through all of this work Dawg without fantasizing about Kelly being here. You can deny it, but I just have a hunch.

I dont know how much disguising goes on in college football at the defensive level but in the NFL what might look like a single high safety can turn into a cover 2 just before the snap. I suppose running an up-tempo offense you are dictating to the defense on how much pre-snap movement they can have (thus stabilizing them in a certain look so they dont get burned during pre-snap movement). I would love for more elements of this style of offense in the NFL I know the Pats did some crazy up-tempo stuff against Denver and had great success. Ironically the Pats ran more out of their up-tempo set up becuase Denver was playing mostly vanilla cover-2 to counter-act the up-tempo offense. Not sure why the Pats went away from that offense in the last few weeks.

Great post Kdawg... but I disagree everyone on here with Chip Kelly being successful in the NFL. Speed kills. Kelly's offense moves the ball against the Pac 12, but against Auburn in the National Championship game they didn't play so well, and against LSU last year they did well, but not well enough.

To me, Kelly smells of Steve Spurrier. If we go college coach, I'd much rather bring in a James Franklin (Vanderbilt) or Bill O'Brien (Penn State) who at least have some pro concepts in their offensive systems.

Good read nonetheless and good input from you as well. Thank you for posting.

Great stuff Dawg. Personally, I think RGIII would be downright scary in this offense. It's tailor made for him. I just don't know how he could be stopped in Kelly's offense. Even in a spread offense you could utilize the read option, but with more open space to run you are looking at significant gains with III's legs.

No way you would go through all of this work Dawg without fantasizing about Kelly being here. You can deny it, but II just have a hunch.

Actually, being 100% honest, I don't know how I feel about Kelly. Part of me would be nervous about how much faster NFL defenses are than what Oregon faces on a week to week basis, and to top it off, I think we need continuity. But on the flipside, Kelly is an extremely smart coach who knows how to get the best out of his players and you can't have continuity for the sake of having continuity. It has to be meaningful. I'm at a crossroads

Actually, being 100% honest, I don't know how I feel about Kelly. Part of me would be nervous about how much faster NFL defenses are than what Oregon faces on a week to week basis, and to top it off, I think we need continuity. But on the flipside, Kelly is an extremely smart coach who knows how to get the best out of his players and you can't have continuity for the sake of having continuity. It has to be meaningful. I'm at a crossroads

That's what I've been saying for a couple of weeks now.

I dont know how much disguising goes on in college football at the defensive level but in the NFL what might look like a single high safety can turn into a cover 2 just before the snap.

That's kind of the beauty of the Duck, isn't it? You take what the defense gives you. Forget the tempo aspect, focus on the read part of it. If at the snap both safeties drop, the quarterback knows there's only five guys in the box. If one comes down, the quarterback knows that there is six in the box.

I don't think the offense is perfect by any stretch, and I think there are ways to slow it down and outright stop it. But the fact that defenses have to be really locked in to what their doing make it a huge threat.

The visor scares me. Maybe I'm still traumatized from the Fun N Gun failure.

The visor scares me. Maybe I'm still traumatized from the Fun N Gun failure.

Oh come on. His hair looks like a plume of feathers coming from the top of the visor, much like a white knight riding in to save the day!

Not a big fan of visors myself thanks to Spurrier.

That's kind of the beauty of the Duck, isn't it? You take what the defense gives you. Forget the tempo aspect, focus on the read part of it. If at the snap both safeties drop, the quarterback knows there's only five guys in the box. If one comes down, the quarterback knows that there is six in the box.

I don't think the offense is perfect by any stretch, and I think there are ways to slow it down and outright stop it. But the fact that defenses have to be really locked in to what their doing make it a huge threat.

I understand that but at somepoint the offense has to commit to a paly and I remember Laron Landry would sneak up to the box on many plays just to bail out to his deep half as the ball is snapped. At that point the Duck offense would have either counted him as the 6th player or they would have anticipated him going back to his assignment as the ball is snapped. Not many safties can actually do this and be in their proper position but guys like Landry, Taylor and Reed have the speed to do this type of baiting.

I understand that but at somepoint the offense has to commit to a paly and I remember Laron Landry would sneak up to the box on many plays just to bail out to his deep half as the ball is snapped. At that point the Duck offense would have either counted him as the 6th player or they would have anticipated him going back to his assignment as the ball is snapped. Not many safties can actually do this and be in their proper position but guys like Landry, Taylor and Reed have the speed to do this type of baiting.

It's evolution, brother. Right now, a lot of plays are designed to read the end man on the LOS or the linebacker. Sooner or later, for teams that use safeties as you describe, that safety who is a dangerous box defender will become a read. It doesn't matter where that guy is presnap, what matters is what he does post snap. If he bails and has lean going into his drop, you know he's playing the pass. If he comes forward, he's in run support. Sure, he could still make an adjustment, but if he waits too long he's toast.

I understand that but at somepoint the offense has to commit to a paly and I remember Laron Landry would sneak up to the box on many plays just to bail out to his deep half as the ball is snapped. At that point the Duck offense would have either counted him as the 6th player or they would have anticipated him going back to his assignment as the ball is snapped. Not many safties can actually do this and be in their proper position but guys like Landry, Taylor and Reed have the speed to do this type of baiting.

If anything the Duck offense has more answers because in a spread formation certain aligments by the S regardless of what they do post snap by simple physics prevent the safety from being able to effect the certain pass plays/route combinations.

Also, the Duck offenses features more 'packaged' plays which allows the QB a choice post-snap to read/execute different plays based on what the defense is doing post snap.

Iw would love for the Skins to run an offense like that. But I'm worried that they don't have the personnell for it.

If anything the Duck offense has more answers because in a spread formation certain aligments by the S regardless of what they do post snap by simple physics prevent the safety from being able to effect the certain pass plays/route combinations.

Absolutely. There are schemes predicated on attacking strengths. Options post snap to take advantage of whats given.

Iw would love for the Skins to run an offense like that. But I'm worried that they don't have the personnell for it.

Right now we don't. We can add some pieces though and be a force, particularly once the cap penalties are lifted. Still not sure its our best option.

So which is it 'Skins fans? Do you want RG3 to be allowed to run around, use the zone read and short passes to set up the bomb? Or do we want RG3 to be a more traditional quarterback? He can succeed doing both, he has the physical gifts and the mental prowess. But where do we as fans want to go?

I don't have a problem with the Pistol as a concept. I think we do need Griffin and the read options to set the table to to run the ball effectively because I don't think the OL and Morris are good enough on their own yet.

However; I think we should run more of Baylor's offense which actually was 'Air Raid' Spread formation (passing) + read option as opposed to what we run now which is Pistol read option.

I think the evolution of this offense is to run more of the offense from spread shotgun formations.

Evolve to this:

X...........................T..G..C..G..T...............................X

..............X..................................................X

.......................................QB..RB...................................

As opposed to this:

X................TE..T..G..C..G..T.....................X

.....................................................................

.................................QB....WB

..................................TB

---------- Post added November-5th-2012 at 01:24 PM ----------

---------- Post added November-5th-2012 at 01:25 PM ----------

Same formation here:

Another good post, dgreenie.

dg is another guy, like LL56, who while always one of the more informed and interesting posters, has really stepped up their game this season and is making a lot of excellent football commentary on the board (whether various positions are agreed to or not by whoever).

And you get KDawg, NLC, Oldfan and so many others (I could rattle off a LOT of names). We are fortunate to have so many interesting and knowledgeable football posters on this site.

dg,

Your evolution is essentially the basic premise of the Duck. A doubles look. 2x2. Now, the beautiful part of a 2x2 being a part of your offense (and not the whole thing) is the various personnel packages you can run with it. I don't have to run 10 personnel there (10 = 1 RB 0 TE for those unfamiliar with personnel groupings). I can run the "Doubles" formation in 12 personnel. Or 11 personnel. Or 21 personnel. There are many ways to do it, and by using SOME base formations such as twins and classic "I", you can hide your intentions with personnel groupings. Furthermore, you can come out in one type of personnel, say 21 (2 backs, 1 tight end) and align in, say, a twins look and see what kind of look the defense gives you and their personnel package. If they come out in a traditional defensive package and not nickel, you can shift to a doubles look if you have tight ends that can align outside like the Patriots do.

There's a ton of variation given a diverse group of personnel.

Love your idea of evolution. It's exactly what I would do if I were interested in running a spread look.

I have been researching and studying the Chip Kelly offense for a few weeks so I love this thread I started out thinking he was a 2012 version of Spurrier :mad: but the more I learn the more impressed I am with him as a offensive mind rather than "Gimmicky coach" .

I have been so impressed that I have changed my stance from " Hell no he wears a visor" to " I would roll the dice and partner him with a strong personnel guy"

I know a few posters know about the spread offense but a majority of the posters don't really "know" the offense. I'm using this thread to post the Chip Kelly Oregon Offense info to 1. teach people about the zone spread since Redskins are running it 2. Teach people about Chip Kellys offense.

.. Props Kdawg for the perfect thread to do this in..

First up Is Chip Kelly coaching clinic used as the basis for the Grantland article

http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/pdfdocs/oregonruns.pdf

Tutorial #1 Inside Zone Read

Tutorial #2 Outside Zone Read

Tutorial #3 The Power Play

Tutorial #4 The Straddle Triple option

How Chip Kelly defeats the "Cover O"

---------- Post added November-17th-2012 at 04:01 AM ----------

Passing game reads

Another good post, dgreenie.

dg is another guy, like LL56, who while always one of the more informed and interesting posters, has really stepped up their game this season and is making a lot of excellent football commentary on the board (whether various positions are agreed to or not by whoever).

And you get KDawg, NLC, Oldfan and so many others (I could rattle off a LOT of names). We are fortunate to have so many interesting and knowledgeable football posters on this site.

Always appreciate the kind words Jumbo

If Oregon loses tonight the nay sayers will :pooh: all over this thread.

One of the best things about Kelly's offense is that he does it with a pile of reject recruits and guys that nobody else wanted. How many Oregon players can you name in the NFL right now?

*crickets*

I'd love to see him as a OC, not necessarily a head coach. Just the tempo and concepts are worth bringing to the NFL.

dg,

There's a ton of variation given a diverse group of personnel.

I don't think he's received enough targets to know.

---------- Post added November-17th-2012 at 10:26 AM ----------

I'm using this thread to post the Chip Kelly Oregon Offense info to 1. teach people about the zone spread since Redskins are running it 2. Teach people about Chip Kellys offense.

I just wish we ran the spread option more. The 2x2 especially but even the 3x1 offer a lot of versatility both through peronnel as KD mentioned and conceptually. You can run the spread option plays from either set and the traditional NFL shotgun passing game.

seems strange to me that the outside backers would always be considered outside the box.

Interesting article, I really like the lens grantland views sports through.

Regarding some points brought up in the article specifically.

-I do find his method of practice very appealing and believe it will be interesting to see if it catches on in the NFL. I understand the blaring music, but think it could be someone counter-productive in instances, but I love his ideas regarding tempo of practice.

-I am also largely in favor of running more spread looks, and in my opinion as we gain depth/talent at the WR position we'll see more of these looks.

There was another grantland article I posted in a thread a few weeks back that broke down defenses and more specifically fumbles. The article projected that the Redskins defense/offense, who at the time had been very lucky recovering fumbles, would regress as the season continued on.

It's worth a read if you have the time.

"The Hidden Factor for Winning in the NFL"

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/print?id=39547

Meanwhile, the Washington Redskins soldier on as the league's luckiest team with regard to fumbles, having recovered 11 of the 13 opportunities they've had across their season so far. The context of those fumbles has also been enormous: Remember that the Redskins forced a Marques Colston fumble just as the Saints receiver was about to cross the goal line, eventually producing a touchback and a turnover, as well as managing to recover a RG3 fumble in the end zone on offense for a touchdown in Week 4. You may note that the Redskins won those two games by a combined 10 points when thinking about how important fumble recoveries are, even if they're mostly random.

The Redskins have produced a recovery rate of 84.6 percent, while no other team is yet above 72.7 percent this season. The other teams in the top five are the Raiders (72.7 percent), Steelers (71.4 percent), Falcons (70.0 percent), and the Cardinals and Patriots are tied (68.8 percent). All of these are in samples of between 10 and 16 fumbles, so it really doesn't have much predicative value.