Chalk Talk: Dissecting the Duck, Skins Tie Ins (GRANTLAND Article + Discussion)

[KDawg]

seems strange to me that the outside backers would always be considered outside the box.

That's just one way of looking at things. Some guys like to look at it like that. Some keep the traditional viewpoint of the "box" where every down lineman and inside the box line backer would count as a box defender. It comes down to your preference and your set up.

---------- Post added November-17th-2012 at 11:27 AM ----------

If Oregon loses tonight the nay sayers will :pooh: all over this thread.

Thanks for your input. However, I'm not sure what there is to "poop" on? I used an article that explains the Duck offense. I broke it down further and added 'Skins info. LL and dg added supplemental info. This post wasn't created to say he should be our next coordinator. It also wasn't created to say he shouldn't be. It's an information piece. I would hope most here would understand that

[Mahons21]

Your evolution is essentially the basic premise of the Duck. A doubles look. 2x2. Now, the beautiful part of a 2x2 being a part of your offense (and not the whole thing) is the various personnel packages you can run with it. I don't have to run 10 personnel there (10 = 1 RB 0 TE for those unfamiliar with personnel groupings). I can run the "Doubles" formation in 12 personnel. Or 11 personnel. Or 21 personnel. There are many ways to do it, and by using SOME base formations such as twins and classic "I", you can hide your intentions with personnel groupings. Furthermore, you can come out in one type of personnel, say 21 (2 backs, 1 tight end) and align in, say, a twins look and see what kind of look the defense gives you and their personnel package. If they come out in a traditional defensive package and not nickel, you can shift to a doubles look if you have tight ends that can align outside like the Patriots do.

Sounds like my Madden strategy, though slightly different. I run a 2TE ace formation based on the stretch, if my opponent brings a safety into the box I audible to 2x2 with Fred and (Cooley in the past) in the slots, and force them to match up LBs on my TEs, a matchup that I believe my players will win. If the opponent audibles, and takes the safety out of the box/aligns their LBs over my TEs in the slot, then I audible to a run out of the 2x2 set. If the opponent shows me a 2 high look v my base set, than I just march it down there throat stretch play after stretch play.

[RedskinParadigm]

One of the challenges with any college coach coming into the NFL is that he's no longer able to recruit from a talent base of hundreds of thousands of athletes to fill his team needs. Professional coaches are given a roster to work with, and barring a few maneuvers in free agency coupled with 7 alotted draft picks, that's the roster they're going into the season with. As we've seen with Shanahan, it's very difficult to turn over an entire roster quickly and effectively in this league. Either you have to make your system work with the talent you already have, or everyone involved with the franchise (owner, coaches, players, and fans) will have to be really patient with the rebuilding efforts.

With a system as specialized as Kelly's, will he be able to find the necessary players that are athletic enough, diverse enough, and intelligent enough to run his scheme the way it needs to be run to be successful in the NFL? Do we have players that are system-ready for Kelly? That would be my major concern.

Of course, the flipside of that concern is that, with such a unique system, Kelly may place an emphasis on different types of players than traditional schemes. As a result, the types of players that Kelly covets may be more readily available than your average incoming coach. A great comparison to this idea was Alex Gibbs and his zone blocking scheme, particularly in the '90s. When everyone else was looking for the 300+ lb power-blockers, Gibbs was able to utilize the best of the best from the athletic yet undersized crop of OL. Gibbs ended up consistently producing dominant lines for what he wanted to do, even though few other teams coveted a number of individual linemen that he was successful with.

I'm still in on the Shanahan plan, but if we were to move in another direction, I would absolutely be down with bringing in Chip Kelly. I still have concerns, but I believe the potential reward is worth the risks.

[Oldfan]

...I'm still in on the Shanahan plan, but if we were to move in another direction, I would absolutely be down with bringing in Chip Kelly. I still have concerns, but I believe the potential reward is worth the risks.

It would be a high risk move. The college game is very different. I'd let some other team try it and then jump on early if it worked.

[KCClybun]

The more I see of Kelly's offense, the more I think it could possibly work in the NFL with a couple tweaks. I think we'd have to have to hook him up with one hell of a personnel guy, but with some tweaks, and a little flexibility, it could work in the NFL.

Part of me still says if we ever did make a switch, I'd want to go with someone in the West Coast Offense coaching tree and continue to developer RG3 as a dropback passer, because I feel like that's what he wants to be----the next Aaron Rodgers. I'm not wild about running him as much as we have past this season. But Chip's offense looks like it could work in the NFL. I just have to watch more tape of it.

[Asianskins]

Good post KD, as usual. But, imo, all of those will work if and only if we have some damn WRs and TEs who can catch the ball. Just my two cents.

[NewEraofSkins08]

In my opinion, RG3 is capable of executing any offense well. I still believe we should keep Shanahan around...but starting to lose that support by the week. If a change is made, however; I think Chip Kelly is that guy. Charismatic, genius offensive-minded...give us Ron Rivera to coach up that defense and we'll be a power house in 3 years.

[KDawg]

In my opinion, RG3 is capable of executing any offense well. I still believe we should keep Shanahan around...but starting to lose that support by the week. If a change is made, however; I think Chip Kelly is that guy. Charismatic, genius offensive-minded...give us Ron Rivera to coach up that defense and we'll be a power house in 3 years.

Let me make this clear (and not to you, NewEraofSkins I'm just quoting you ), I don't know if Kelly would be the answer. I don't know if he'd fit. I don't know that Shanahan can't be effective. But if we continue on the path we're on, at the very least the conversation of change needs to come up. I think Chip Kelly is an EXTREMELY smart man, and I think his Duck offense has a ton of variations that Oregon doesn't show that can utilize any kind of personnel you have. Have hybrid tight end types? Perfect. We'll shift to a formation and play we like versus your personnel package. Have a larger offensive line? I think you could run the "Power O" play with an option off the backside.

There are just so many possibilities.

RIght now, Kelly has an astronomical edge in recruiting at Oregon. He gets fast, speedy guys that are in shape that are relatively football smart. So he sticks with the system we see. I have a feeling, and there is no proof whatsoever, but I have a feeling he could adapt that system to a pro system with relative ease and according to his personnel. Remember, the premise of a system isn't necessarily the "contraint" plays you run (bubble screens, etc) its your base offense. Kelly has a tempo driven offense that can grind you down in the rushing game or pick you apart in the passing game. Also keep in mind that RG3 is better, even comparatively, to anything he's ever had at quarterback at Oregon.

Again, I'm not sold on saying he's the next guy. Or that Shanahan isn't. But the system itself is very sound: Dictate the tempo, utilize your personnel in the most effective way and take what the defense gives you. The rest is adaptable.

[darrelgreenie]

One of the challenges with any college coach coming into the NFL is that he's no longer able to recruit from a talent base of hundreds of thousands of athletes to fill his team needs. Professional coaches are given a roster to work with, and barring a few maneuvers in free agency coupled with 7 alotted draft picks, that's the roster they're going into the season with. As we've seen with Shanahan, it's very difficult to turn over an entire roster quickly and effectively in this league. Either you have to make your system work with the talent you already have, or everyone involved with the franchise (owner, coaches, players, and fans) will have to be really patient with the rebuilding efforts.......

.......With a system as specialized as Kelly's, will he be able to find the necessary players that are athletic enough, diverse enough, and intelligent enough to run his scheme the way it needs to be run to be successful in the NFL? Do we have players that are system-ready for Kelly? That would be my major concern.

I'm having this conversation Independent of our HC/OC situation.

Re:Personnel

I think Chip Kelly's success with his system brought talent to the Ducks as opposed to many other schools that have a pipeline of talent regardless.

Re:Scheme

I think any sound football stratgey/scheme translates from college to NFL provided good coaching.

I think we're doing a lot of simplifying and generalzing when it comes to the Duck's offense. I'm not sure what aspect of the offense wouldn't translate? More and more teams have read option packages as part of their offense.

Our current offense is heavily based on read option albeit from Pistol more then spread.

Since we run read option from Pistol right now I don't see why we couldn't run it from spread (right now).

Re:Having the right players for Chip

I think we have thee most important player for the scheme.

---------- Post added November-17th-2012 at 02:49 PM ----------

The more I see of Kelly's offense, the more I think it could possibly work in the NFL with a couple tweaks. I think we'd have to have to hook him up with one hell of a personnel guy, but with some tweaks, and a little flexibility, it could work in the NFL.

Part of me still says if we ever did make a switch, I'd want to go with someone in the West Coast Offense coaching tree and continue to developer RG3 as a dropback passer, because I feel like that's what he wants to be----the next Aaron Rodgers. I'm not wild about running him as much as we have past this season. But Chip's offense looks like it could work in the NFL. I just have to watch more tape of it.

If I was a GM the perfect coaching marriage for this offense would be a WCO coach that's put an offense together before (preferably spread WCO like the Packers) + 'Air Raid' read option coach (pretty much only available in college). The key factor being the veteran NFL coach has to believe in the viability of the marriage of concepts. I'm sure there are coaches like Gruden that see the possibilities.

Heck, Kyle could be the OC that leads the offense in that direction on his own.

[NewEraofSkins08]

Let me make this clear (and not to you, NewEraofSkins I'm just quoting you ), I don't know if Kelly would be the answer. I don't know if he'd fit. I don't know that Shanahan can't be effective. But if we continue on the path we're on, at the very least the conversation of change needs to come up. I think Chip Kelly is an EXTREMELY smart man, and I think his Duck offense has a ton of variations that Oregon doesn't show that can utilize any kind of personnel you have. Have hybrid tight end types? Perfect. We'll shift to a formation and play we like versus your personnel package. Have a larger offensive line? I think you could run the "Power O" play with an option off the backside.

There are just so many possibilities.

RIght now, Kelly has an astronomical edge in recruiting at Oregon. He gets fast, speedy guys that are in shape that are relatively football smart. So he sticks with the system we see. I have a feeling, and there is no proof whatsoever, but I have a feeling he could adapt that system to a pro system with relative ease and according to his personnel. Remember, the premise of a system isn't necessarily the "contraint" plays you run (bubble screens, etc) its your base offense. Kelly has a tempo driven offense that can grind you down in the rushing game or pick you apart in the passing game. Also keep in mind that RG3 is better, even comparatively, to anything he's ever had at quarterback at Oregon.

Again, I'm not sold on saying he's the next guy. Or that Shanahan isn't. But the system itself is very sound: Dictate the tempo, utilize your personnel in the most effective way and take what the defense gives you. The rest is adaptable.

I agree with all of this...must be a Upstate/Western NY thing.

[RFKFedEx]

Thanks for your input. However, I'm not sure what there is to "poop" on?

I'm not hating on your thread topic. Sorry if it came off that way. I've enjoyed reading this.

What I meant was... as fans we have such short memories. If Oregon stumbles at any point in the coming weeks, the 'I told you so' posters will have their leverage to compare the prospect of Kelly's system in the NFL to Spurrier in DC.

[KDawg]

I'm not hating on your thread topic. Sorry if it came off that way. I've enjoyed reading this.

What I meant was... as fans we have such short memories. If Oregon stumbles at any point in the coming weeks, the 'I told you so' posters will have their leverage to compare the prospect of Kelly's system in the NFL to Spurrier in DC.

You're right. But I've learned something over the years.

People who pop in to threads just to say "I told you so" with no substance and full of vitriol are generally the people who possess the least football knowledge around. So, I'm not too worried about it

[Lavarleap56]

I'm not hating on your thread topic. Sorry if it came off that way. I've enjoyed reading this.

What I meant was... as fans we have such short memories. If Oregon stumbles at any point in the coming weeks, the 'I told you so' posters will have their leverage to compare the prospect of Kelly's system in the NFL to Spurrier in DC.

I actually don't agree. Spurrier was a lazy coach ( understatement) and ultimately failed because he wouldn't adjust his offense . Kellly Is not a lazy coach and adapts and evolves the offense when/if defenses begin to stop him. I never saw that trait in Spurrier in DC.

[KDawg]

LL,

I don't think he was speaking to seeing the same traits in those kinda of coaches necessarily. I do t even think he said that because of football reasons. I think his point was that our fans will say its a gimmick offense if they have one off game because we're so fickle.

But for what it's worth... I agree with your stance.

[Lavarleap56]

LL,

I don't think he was speaking to seeing the same traits in those kinda of coaches necessarily. I do t even think he said that because of football reasons. I think his point was that our fans will say its a gimmick offense if they have one off game because we're so fickle.

But for what it's worth... I agree with your stance.

Gotcha, I have had so many of the Spurrier/Kelly debates in the past few days I probably jumped the gun

Another good vid for people...

Defenses started catching up and Chip Kelly switched it all up on them ..

[Rocket442Olds]

I agree with all of this...must be a Upstate/Western NY thing.

Must be, because I don't disagree. Even with Oregons offense getting a bit of a neutering this week.

I'm not calling for Shanahans head, but I think Chip Kelly is going to be looked at by quite a few NFL teams soon enough. I also think of course there is a risk involved with that. Some coaches just translate better to the College Game (Nick Saban) even if the offense they're running is considered a "pro-ready style". A lot of it in my opinion has to do with a coaches charisma during the recruiting process and hedging bets on good players and depth for your system. Saban does that better than anyone and it looks like Kelly is good at it as well. He is looking for completely different players but that doesn't matter.

A good example of a coach who translated well so far to the pros is Jim Harbaugh. His Offense doesn't look like it did in College where they were putting up 40 a game, but thats mainly personel and defense dictating what hes doing. Great coaches can adjust.

[RonYoungEra]

Lets hope chip stays until he wins a national championship, obviously and unfortunately not this year, after tonight. Then in a couple of years, after mike is done here and chip is ready, we grab him!

[Major Harris]

:secret: it's richrod's offense.

Mark me down as saying Kelly would not be highly successful in the NFL. I hesitate but seriously consider saying bust.

But great post kdawg.

[darrelgreenie]

:secret: it's richrod's offense.

Mark me down as saying Kelly would not be highly successful in the NFL. I hesitate but seriously consider saying bust.

But great post kdawg.

Do you think this because of the style of offense or because of him.

[Darth Tater]

Do you think this because of the style of offense or because of him.

My worry is that Chip Kelly's offense would be fun if it was a success in the NFL but because the Eagles will be looking for a new HC, I'd have to hope he was a bust if he got them.

[Major Harris]

Do you think this because of the style of offense or because of him.

Both. The idea of putting a defense under pressure by making them defend vertically and horizontally isn't as effective when linebackers go sideline to sideline like they do in the NFL. and I am very wary of college coaches with no NFL background making the jump....not sure why....

[KDawg]

Both. The idea of putting a defense under pressure by making them defend vertically and horizontally isn't as effective when linebackers go sideline to sideline like they do in the NFL.

I understand this point, but that's why a good mix of pass, run, play action and misdirections can keep a linebacker guessing, thus hampering their ability to go sideline to sideline. Now, when you play some of the better ones, you need to make sure you get a hat on them because they're going to be at the POA.

[Darth Tater]

I understand this point, but that's why a good mix of pass, run, play action and misdirections can keep a linebacker guessing, thus hampering their ability to go sideline to sideline. Now, when you play some of the better ones, you need to make sure you get a hat on them because they're going to be at the POA.

I don't think Kelly would import his offense wholesale. Difference is really that you don't play an weak sisters in the NFL. However, RG3's long run against Minnesota was instructive about what that kind of offense can do. The first hot read was kind of tailback draw after the defense had committed. Most offenses can't go hot with a draw that became the primary hot read just after the snap.

[KDawg]

I don't think Kelly would import his offense wholesale.

This is a point I made earlier in the thread. Agreed.

Difference is really that you don't play an weak sisters in the NFL. However, RG3's long run against Minnesota was instructive about what that kind of offense can do.

No, you don't play any weak linebackers, necessarily. But you can still manipulate them through setting things up. But the best are tough to trick. But even NFL linebackers fall for misdirection and play action from time to time

The first hot read was kind of tailback draw after the defense had committed. Most offenses can't go hot with a draw that became the primary hot read just after the snap.

The Duck is dictated on taking whats given. It's why I love the system. It can be adapted to NFL purposes and formations. You don't even need to stay in the "spread" with it. You can run different looks all day long. I think Kelly would do a good job at running a system based on personnel strengths and weaknesses while maintaining system integrity. Various tempos, taking whats given style.

[Darth Tater]

This is a point I made earlier in the thread. Agreed.

Got depressed after that Carolina game and didn't read much here over the last couple of weeks. Also, figured it was a good time to test if I needed someone to do an ES intervention program on me. Two weeks is the longest time I've gone without posting since 2004!