Forced Name Change?

[MumboSauce]

Hypothetically, if for some reason the Redskins at some point in the future were forced to change thier name..what would you go with? like most? or call them?

[Art]

We have discussions such as these in the Tailgate section of the site, rather than the main board. So, moving it here.

[dfitzo53]

If we had to change the name, I would say Washington Braves. It keeps the spirit intact, and we were the Braves when the franchise was in Boston I believe.

[TK]

How about.....The Washington Beatthesnotoutofadeadhorse?

[dfbovey]

Originally posted by dfitzo53

If we had to change the name, I would say Washington Braves. It keeps the spirit intact, and we were the Braves when the franchise was in Boston I believe.

I agree, but I doubt the name will ever change.

[KDawg]

I still say keep it as "Redskins" and change the logo to a potato... Middle finger to the world right there...

[SkinsNut73]

I hope it never does have to change. I've also seen people who want the logo changed even if we don't change the name - hope that never happens either. If it did then I suppose I better hang onto all the stuff I've accumulated over the years as it will become a collector's item

...but I'll play along...IF we were forced to change the name I'd go back to Braves.

[Thiebear]

Wheres the Washington Hogs?

my vote...

never use the word Wart in a name...

[SkinsNatsFan]

Originally posted by KDawg

I still say keep it as "Redskins" and change the logo to a potato.

This has always been my position as well, but TK's suggestion is becoming more and more popular.

[Candy]

here's a previous discussion on this topic...... which never seems to go away.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21461&perpage=20&display=&highlight=native&pagenumber=1

[Walking Deadman]

As I said in a previous post:

The Washington PC's (Politically Corrects)

And now for the new theme song:

"Hail to PC's,

Hail Victory (if that doesn't offend the losing team, oops! I mean the team that may not have won)".

"Braves (ut-oh offensive again, how about people who discuss in a non-violent manner) on the warpath (how about a negotiation area for non-sex, non-race, non-religion, non-age individuals)".

"Fight (Discuss) for ol' (what about new, we don't want to offend them either) DC. (actually that should include VA, MD and the entire world including the UN and the European Union)".

[RunPortisRun]

Yea, I would at least change the logo.

We have an indian man on our helmet like they are animals...Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions,Saint Louis Rams, etc.

[redskin1]

I would like the Washington Braves.

[jnova]

it wont every be changed barring a NFL lock out on demands for money. If that were to happen we would call them unemployed.

[Rooner]

Originally posted by RunPortisRun

Yea, I would at least change the logo.

We have an indian man on our helmet like they are animals...Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions,Saint Louis Rams, etc.

Its not like they are animals. When you pick a mascot, you pick a symbol of honor, bravery, strength, courage, determination, and something people will respect. You dont pick your mascot to ridicule it or to have it be made an object of humiliation.

Thats what I dont understand about people getting upset about this. The name I can somewhat understand, I guess some could consider is a racial slurr. But I am Native American, and the whole reason I started liking the Redskins is because they were a symbol of the pride of my heritage.

I feel honored to have the native people of this live as a mascot for a sports franchise. And our symbol is perfectly fine, the Indian head looks noble and dignified. Something like the Cleveland Indians symbol could be considered slightly bad, but its a charicature, its meant to be an exaggeration. Its no different than the Fighting Irish mascot, but I dont hear many Irish people complaining.

[Dick Edds]

even if the name technically changed it will no be easy to erase 80 some odd years of tradition and the terms that have been associated with that - being called the Redskins. I understand the feeling that it may be a term that negatively characterizes the color of a native Americans' skin color . . . but IMO the meaning still refers to the orginal brave warriors who orignally populated this great land. I would not have a problem changing the logo back to the old school spear though, which I think would be a good compromise. Since we use the image of a native american - and our name is "Redskins" I can see how the visual imagery and terminology combined can cause offense. I would just think that taking the visual element (logo) away may help take a little of the derogatory perception that has been attached to the term "Redskins" and that it can define what it origianlly intended to do.

I would however have to leave these opinions of whether or not it is dergoatory to our Native American citizens. My grandfather's grandmother (great great grandmother) was a Cherokee and so I have always been proud of that heritage. But I'm not trying to make it seem like my opinion matters just because of this fact, personally I just have always felt proud to have that line of descent in my linegae and have felt the Washington Redskins organization has protrayed the Native American culture in a positive light. Hail to em' - no offense was meant by any of my comments . . . just my personal ramblings.

[TK]

Originally posted by RunPortisRun

Yea, I would at least change the logo.

We have an indian man on our helmet like they are animals...Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions,Saint Louis Rams, etc.

Gather round for a history lesson youngins...

From the 2003 Archives.

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2003/11/03/top/a01110303_01.txt

Tribal leader rubbed elbows with elite

BY SHAWN WHITE WOLF - IR Staff Writer - 11/03/03

Walter "Blackie" Wetzel learned early on that in order to achieve the success he wanted for his people, he would need to use every bit of political power he had — at home and in Washington, D.C.

In the 1950s and '60s, Wetzel, at the height of his political career, was the chairman of the Blackfeet Nation and president of the National Congress of American Indians.

Born in 1915, Wetzel grew up on the Blackfeet Reservation.

Early on, Chief White Calf gave Wetzel a right of passage of the chieftainship of the Blackfeet Nation.

"I am still a chief today," Wetzel said Friday afternoon from his Helena home.

White Calf, who was over 100 years old at the time, conducted a special ceremony and gave Wetzel his Indian name — Six-o-num, meaning Blackie.

Throughout Wetzel's lifetime, he has served on the Blackfeet council, Montana Intertribal Council, National Congress of American Indians, and worked with Presidents Lyndon B. Johnson and John F. Kennedy and numerous congressmen.

In September of 1990, Wetzel, among others, was honored as a distinguished alumnus of the University of Montana for attending nearly four years at the school back in the 1930s, although he didn't graduate for personal reasons.

Sen. Mike Mansfield once wrote Wetzel a letter that he keeps framed in his living room.

"As a friend of many years, decades really, we both have great appreciation, admiration, and respect for your many accomplishments during your lifetime," wrote Mansfield.

During his time in office, Wetzel said, he fought hard against policies that would terminate tribal governments and reservations.

At the same time, he fought for employment, aid, the development of the tribes' land and minerals and other issues on his own reservation as well as for hundreds of other tribes throughout the country.

"I think President Kennedy would sometimes order the (federal) government to send food," said Wetzel.

Nearly 40 years after Kennedy's assassination, Wetzel said he still remembers his most beloved president.

Just months prior to the assassination on Nov. 22, 1963, the president had visited Great Falls on a nationwide tour.

As decided by Kennedy, Wetzel was to introduce the president at an event in Great Falls on Sept. 26, 1963. However, Wetzel said, at the last minute, Stuart Udall, U.S. secretary of state, changed the course of events.

"The president was there for business, and I was considered too political," said Wetzel.

However, he said, the president insisted that he come into an area blocked off for security reasons.

"Blackie, what do you have there?" Kennedy asked Wetzel as he held an object in his hands.

Wetzel, who named Kennedy High Eagle, presented the president with a carved gavel by Albert Racine, a Blackfeet artist.

In addition to the American politicians, Winston Churchill requested from Wetzel a complete Blackfeet regalia after Churchill found out his mother was half Indian.

"A Royal Guard showed up to collect the regalia, but Churchill didn't come," said Wetzel.

Another eye-opening Wetzel accomplishment was his idea to put the head of an Indian chief on the helmets of the Washington Redskins.

"Back then, (in the 1960s) there was only the letter "R" on the helmet, so I requested a few pictures to be sent down from my reservation of Indian chiefs," Wetzel explained.

Wetzel said he walked into the office of the Washington Redskins and said, "I came here to see you guys about seeing a real Indian on the helmets."

He said a person told him that they would look over his proposal and consider it.

After the team finally picked his idea, he said, he felt really proud — and has ever since — seeing the Indian chief on the helmet.

Since then, numerous groups and American Indian leaders throughout the country have fought against Indian mascots.

Wetzel said that people from the Washington Redskins send him tickets and other types of memorabilia.

A Washington Post reporter has even contacted him about the Redskin logo for a story that ran in January of 2002.

Two weeks ago, he said, he saw it on the news that the team was keeping the name and logo.

"I felt good about that, and they are proud to wear it," he said.

Today, Wetzel said he has retired to his quiet home in Helena after a busy political career and then several years in the U.S. Department of Labor and Montana Department of Labor.

"I am just playing her cool now," Wetzel said while leaning back in his recliner.

Reporter Shawn White Wolf can be reached at 447-4028 or shawn.whitewolf@helenair.com

Eliza Wiley IR Staff Photographer - Walter Wetzel is shown holding a photo of Robert F. Kennedy. Wetzel, who served two terms on the National Congress of American Indians, was very close to the Kennedy family. Wetzel is pictured wearing a cap bearing the logo of the Washington Redskins, which he helped design.

While searching for that article, I came across this :

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=17661

Letters from the Newsroom

From Shawn White Wolf

04.30.03

Dear Diversity Institute,

I just had an interesting experience.

I wrote a “Person Worth Knowing” profile about a former Blackfeet tribal leader from the 1950s/1960s.

Walter “Blackie” Wetzel, also a tribal chief, had befriended presidents Kennedy and Johnson, as well as former Montana Senators Mike Mansfield and Lee Metcalf. He also created the Washington Redskins headdress logo on their helmets, something he said he was proud about ever since. In fact, the Washington Redskins group sent him tickets to their games.

The plan was to run the story around the 40th anniversary of the Kennedy assignation, Nov. 22. However, we needed a story for the Monday profile, so I offered the Wetzel story. Fortunately, we ran the story last week because Saturday (Nov. 8, 2003) he passed away after suffering heart problems. He was 88.

All day Saturday, he kept saying that he was going to go see his former wife, Doris. She died back in the 80s. So, the family knew that something was up.

We ran a front page story of his death since we had just featured him the week before. I didn’t write the second story, because I was out of town on an Indian education story. Another (Independent Record) reporter remembered his name from my story and asked to write the second story.

Shawn White Wolf, a reporter for the Independent Record in Helena, Mont., is a graduate of the second Diversity Institute class.

Then there's this article that was posted by gridironmike

American Indians Among Admirers Of Redskins Name

Marc Fisher

Column: MARC FISHER

January 26, 2002; Page B1

Scalp 'em, swamp 'em We will take 'em big score

Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown

We want heap more -- "Hail to the Redskins," original 1937 lyric

In a few days, football will fade from view and the Redskins will lurk in the background as an autumnal hope. But the debate over the Redskins' name knows no seasons; it has been with us for more than four decades and shows no sign of abating.

With local governments now in the act, urging Dan Snyder to pull an Abe Pollin and change his team's name to something bland, the name game takes on a new urgency.

The name changers appear to have the upper hand, as they sweep the nation forcing high schools and colleges to abandon traditional mascots and scrap names such as Indians, Chiefs, Braves and Warriors.

Interestingly, most of the people who sizzle with outrage over Indian team names and mascots are not Indians. American Indians can be found vigorously arguing on both sides. Academics are split, too: Anthropologists call team names and mascots humiliating, while linguists say "redskin" describes "stalwart attributes." Even dictionaries disagree (the Oxford English says "redskin" is "generally benign," while Webster's says it is "usually offensive").

The Redskins debate -- in addition to the latest condemnation from the Metropolitan Council of Governments, a challenge to the team's trademark is tied up in federal court -- focuses on the genesis of the name (was it born as an ethnic slur?) and its use today (does it denigrate Indians?).

There are at least three versions of the name's origin. The official story, says team spokesman Karl Swanson, is that when the Boston Braves football team left Braves Field to play at Fenway Park in 1933, owner George Preston Marshall needed a new name for his squad.

He chose Redskins in honor of Lone Star Dietz, the team's coach and an Indian who often wore an eagle feather headdress, beaded deerskin jacket and buckskin moccasins. Dietz brought four to six -- accounts vary -- Indian players with him to Boston from the Haskell Indian School in Kansas, where he had coached for four years.

Another version has the team being named for the white men who dressed up as Indians to stage the Boston Tea Party at the start of the American Revolution. Yet another genesis story says the name stems from the colored clay that Plains Indians used to paint themselves for tribal ceremonies.

Whichever version is right, "the reality is more benign than people on both sides of the fence are attributing to it," says sports historian and museum consultant Frank Ceresi. "The name was meant very, very positively."

The genesis may always remain murky because Marshall never wrote a word about his choice, the Boston newspapers from the time are silent on the question (football was a minor sideshow in those days), and survivors of the period offer conflicting and vague recollections. But it is clear that the Boston Redskins, who moved to Washington in 1937, sought to capitalize on their Indian players and coach: The team played wearing red war paint. And Indian players from the time considered the name and trappings an honor.

So does Walter Wetzel, former chairman of the Blackfoot tribe and president of the National Congress of American Indians in the 1960s. By the early '60s, the Redskins had dropped any reference to Indians in their logo, uniforms and merchandise. Wetzel went to the Redskins office with photos of Indians in full headdress.

"I said, 'I'd like to see an Indian on your helmets,' " which then sported a big "R" as the team logo, remembers Wetzel, now 86 and retired in Montana. Within weeks, the Redskins had a new logo, a composite Indian taken from the features in Wetzel's pictures. "It made us all so proud to have an Indian on a big-time team. . . . It's only a small group of radicals who oppose those names. Indians are proud of Indians."

Snyder, meanwhile, intends to keep the name, no matter the protests. "Frankly, we don't hear much from fans about this," Swanson says. "Words take power from their usage. We don't use funny mascots. We don't have tomahawk chops. We've always used the word in a respectful way, to mean tradition, courage and respect."

[Walking Deadman]

There.....

That says it all....The Redskins "Chief" logo was designed by.....

A NATIVE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- I think this topic can now be closed.

Thanks for the story TK,

very interesting read.

[TK]

Originally posted by goskins

There.....

That says it all....The Redskins "Chief" logo was designed by.....

A NATIVE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- I think this topic can now be closed.

Thanks for the story TK,

very interesting read.

Not a problem. Props to gridironmike as well for posting some of that. If you want more, run the articles headlines through the search engine & see what else you find.

[NASMTrainer]

not again

[CTaylor42]

Originally posted by Skin-N-NY

not again

Exactly what I was thinking

[MumboSauce]

Aweee good grief. I did a search about names, or name change. I didn't see anything that posed the options mine did. I didn't say..oh the name is wrong it should be changed...or I have problem with it.

Nor did I bring up a race issue or race card. Just in the event for some reason the name would ever be changed what would you like.

I realize posts in the past were raised from a racial standpoint or an offensive standpoint...this was not the purpose or aim of this thread. ( I made the mistake of doing that when I first joined)

A pure hypothetical if it had to be changed for some reason what would you choice. (ie a new owner decides its time for something new 10-15 years from now and polled the city on what they'd like..like bullets to the wizards etc.)

That lame beating the dead horse reply isn't an option. If you have a problem with it move on, no harm no foul.

and it's(oh this again) again because folks chose to take it there. Far from the intention of the thread.

Somtimes things are very, very simple...no need for deeper meanings behind it. I thought it was pretty simply stated.

You either , pick a name on the list, or pick a name you'd like. simple as that.

If the name stays just the way it is I'd be fine with that . Damn, maybe Hypothetically wasn't displayed big enough...I'd understand if I started the thread Is the name racist? or is it offensive..yeah those threads have been done a billion times, this is not that thread dont get it twisted.

There are times like this when boards/communties you thought you could pal around with and discuss things take an wrong turn. If I was hanging out with my friend from up the street and I asked him...hey man, being a fan, if you had to name or call the skins something else what would you call them? I'm pretty sure he'd just say this name would be cool, or yeah that name you thought of is cool..or I like the name the way it is. and that would be that.

My friends and I throw hypotheticals around all the time just for the sake of convo.

Thanks super nerd board police and the other anal retentive folks that can't handle this.

[36SKINS56]

with how much of a pansy people are these days its inevitable to be changed...if the Bullets had to change then clearly the Redskins (a racial slur) will have to be changed. I am clearly pissed about it but i feel it will have to happen...if anything tho Id change it to the Braves because thats not technically racist

[TK]

Originally posted by ciresolstice

That lame beating the dead horse reply isn't an option. If you have a problem with it move on, no harm no foul. ...

Thanks super nerd board police and the other anal retentive folks that can't handle this.

Actually, wasn't None of the above, I would call them the? an option?

~Signed

Anal Retentive Super Nerd Cop

[gridironmike]

Originally posted by RunPortisRun

Yea, I would at least change the logo.

We have an indian man on our helmet like they are animals...Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions,Saint Louis Rams, etc.

So do the Patriots, Raiders, and Buccaneers (a dead man). The Vikings have one as a secondary logo. I wonder if they picked these logos to mock or degrade patriots or pirates.