Pocono Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 If citing only the source you looked at makes one a liar wouldn't that also apply to you who only cited the source you went with in your post? I use ESPN because I've always used ESPN. If you don't think ESPN should be used then make a rule ESPN shouldn't be used as a source instead of calling someone a liar who uses ESPN as a source. If I'm a troll I'm not a very good one. I made very few posts here during the season because I know the last thing I would want during a bad season is for some outsider to post telling me my team is having a bad season. Basically during the season I only post here if there is a salary cap question because that is an area of great interest to me. If you want the thread where someone said I presented a distorted picture of the truth it's this one.. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87578&perpage=15&display=&highlight=Cap%20Hell&pagenumber=24 Where Mr Happy correctly pointed out I didn't include part of a CBA paragraph that fell above a page break. It was done by accident and as I later showed by citing 2 paragraphs together it wasn't definitive anyway. May I also point out that that is a pretty high class discussion involving the CBA and it just might not have been taking place if I weren't here. Let me also point out this paragraph by wskin44... "PokiMON: It's hard to believe that you are an iggle fan. Your posts have always been very informative. You are the type of fan that will always be welcome by this skin fan." as being counter indicative of the kind of posts you would expect from home town fans reacting to a "prototypical troll." I suggest you review that thread and decide whether I'm an asset or a liability to your site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Newera I agree that New England is the best coached team in football. They will exploit Trotter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Pocono as being counter indicative of the kind of posts you would expect from home town fans reacting to a "prototypical troll." I suggest you review that thread and decide whether I'm an asset or a liability to your site. I'll get right on that... immediately after you provide me an example of a starting middle linebacker in the NFL who hasn't amassed over 100+ tackles - and hasn't missed significant time due to injuries. Since that question was asked first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBChick Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 How are Peirces leadership skills? I know when Trotter took the field, his mental impact on everyone else, probably matched his own play. Umm let's see.. Pierce commanding the 3rd ranked defnse in the NFL, #1 in the NFC. Even after being pretty much knocked out of the playoffs, he managed to insite his defensive squad to go out a beat a team that made it to round 2 of the playoffs. He managed to lead a defense that so closely SHUT down the NFC champions that even our anemic offense came just a pass away of beating them. I think his leadership abilities are just what we needed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Clark84 Tenacious, if you have ever followed Joe Gibbs in the least, he says nothing that would imply being negative to a current or former player. He did not regret cutting Trotter for one second. In case you didn't see buddy, the D here wasn't the problem. Gibbs was complimenting Trotter in his own way. He didn't want him nor his salary. I understand that he wouldn't want to knock him. But saying it was a mistake to cut someone seems an unessarily high compliment. Thats all I'm saying. There are nice things you can say, without going that far. What I think happened is, as reports have recently said, Trotter could barely run when he was cut by the redskins, and stayed that way when he first rejoined the eagles a month later. As his injury continued to heal, that really changed things. I think that played a major part in Trotter being cut. And probably why no other teams wanted to take a chance on him. As for New England "exposing" Trotter. If that was going to happen, I would have thought it would be Wiggins, or Crumpler catching passes over the middle in these past two games. But that has not happened yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 As for New England "exposing" Trotter. If that was going to happen, I would have thought it would be Wiggins, or Crumpler catching passes over the middle in these past two games. But that has not happened yet. Middle linebackers aren't responsible for TE's in coverage. Strongside linebackers are. In fact, it was #56 (Burgess? question mark because I thought he was a DE) who spent the better part of the day covering Crumpler. I kept a close eye on that matchup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I understand that he wouldn't want to knock him. But saying it was a mistake to cut someone seems an unessarily high compliment. Thats all I'm saying. There are nice things you can say, without going that far. I guess, you never heard Gibbs praise Brunell after a under 100 yard passing game :laugh: however if you want to believe Gibbs really regretted cutting Trotter :laugh: whatever you need to help you sleep at night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Wow. I'd flip the one around bubba. Thats the perspective I'm getting. Theres a little difference in keeping things friendly for the media with your own player, then addressing a player on another team, who you really don't have any obligation to talk about. Die Hard, as for Burgess. He did drop into coverage some. Both ends did. But I saw alot of him moving upfield, to keep Vick in the pocket. Now, becuase Weiner was injured, they may have doubled Burgess, using Crumpler. Thus creating a match up there. While it is true the strongside is on TE's alot, in general passes over the middle have not been an issue. They certainly have not been a liability. Jason Witten is really the only player that has hurt the eagles in the short passing game badly this year, but he didn't do nearly the same thing in the second game. I'm not argueing that Trotter has been a force in coverage, but I will say that the short passing game will not be a huge factor, or liability, overall. The matchup I will be interested in, is seeing how the Patriots coverage units will do against JR Reed. I've heard they aren't exactly spectacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsCrunkin Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 As for New England "exposing" Trotter. If that was going to happen, I would have thought it would be Wiggins, or Crumpler catching passes over the middle in these past two games. But that has not happened yet. You are going up against Tom Brady this weekend, not a Mike Vick who has yet to be comfortable in his offense, face it man you made it to the super bowl, be glad, but you won't beat the patriots, if my Redskins were in the Super bowl this year and playing the Patriots I would be extremely worried as well because I think the Patriots are probably the most clutch team in football and bill belichek is a genious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 Wow. I'd flip the one around bubba. Thats the perspective I'm getting. Theres a little difference in keeping things friendly for the media with your own player, then addressing a player on another team, who you really don't have any obligation to talk about.. :laugh: sure..... ever hear of Lou Holtz? bragging on the competition, about "however will his team beat the "Little women of the poor college" who hasn't won a game all season? The media wanted to make a big "revenge" thing out of it... Gibbs defused it with the Holtz method.....:laugh: but keep your fantasies.. don't expect others to believe them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocono Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard I'll get right on that... immediately after you provide me an example of a starting middle linebacker in the NFL who hasn't amassed over 100+ tackles - and hasn't missed significant time due to injuries. Since that question was asked first. That's your point Die Hard and if you want to do the leg work I'd be happy to hear the results but I'm not sure how it applies to Johnson Lewis and the other DC[Edwards] being confident enough in Trot's ability to drop back in coverage to keep him on the field in passing situations during the 5 seasons he started at MLB for those DC's before being released by the Skins. Even in 03 coming off the leg injury there were only 3 LB's with more tackles than Trotter who also had as many PD's as Trotter had with the Skins. http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/TAC/2003/regular Since any of these coaches had the ability to take Trot out of the game in nickel situatiions and put someone else in like Pierce doesn't it seem to contradict your assertion that Trot is a one trick pony? Also how can you call it foolish to point out that fans coaches and players think enough of a player to vote him into the PB and then quote a paragraph by one talking head ex-fullback[Johnstone] who has to say something or be faced with dead air and treat it like it was the sermon on the mount? BTW...I think you meant D Jones was covering Crumpler. Burgess was the DE who did a great job keeping Vick in the pocket and recorded two sacks. BTW2...I think Tenacious explanation that Trot's knee was really a question mark makes the most sense as the main reason for his release over not talented enough or cap cut. That would explain why they were adamant about him not reporting to any team functions lest he get hurt and end up on IR and also why no team but the Eagles was willing to risk signing him. Knees are funny things and really weren't made for football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Do your statistics show how many times Trotter blew his coverage or got burnt in coverage in '03? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Pocono That's your point Die Hard and if you want to do the leg work I'd be happy to hear the results but I'm not sure how it applies to Johnson Lewis and the other DC[Edwards] being confident enough in Trot's ability to drop back in coverage to keep him on the field in passing situations during the 5 seasons he started at MLB for those DC's before being released by the Skins. Even in 03 coming off the leg injury there were only 3 LB's with more tackles than Trotter who also had as many PD's as Trotter had with the Skins. http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/TAC/2003/regular I could've sworn I provided at least 3 references: http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3339622 NFL on FOX analyst Daryl Johnston I don't even think of Trotter as a middle linebacker. He plays more like a defensive lineman that lines up off the ball in the middle. That's why Trotter struggled in Washington, because he didn't fit well in Marvin Lewis' scheme. He is a downhill, disruptive force between the guard-center gaps on either side of the ball. That's all he's trying to do. http://www.profootballweekly.com/PF.../spin060603.htm Trotter struggled initially in Marvin Lewis’ system last season and was just hitting his stride when he was knocked out for the year with the ACL injury. http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/10706896.htm?1c Sam Donnellon While Trotter's struggles playing for Washington seemed to give this credence - as well as his re-emergence as a Pro Bowl player this season with the Eagles - it also appears true that Trotter's abilities make Johnson's scheme more complete. -------------------------------- Further, there's plenty more. I'm not sure why you get to establish how many sources need to be provided before it becomes accepted fact that anybody with half a brain who actually followed the Redskins know that Trotter struggled in coverage. The fact is, it took exceptionally long for the players to get into position and buy into Marvin Lewis defense. That was on Jeremiah Trotter. In fact, after he suffered his ACL tear, the defense actually improved dramatically. Furthermore, it was LaVar Arrington last year who was outspoken about George Edwards defensive schemes and how the players were having difficulty getting into the proper alignment. Who does that fall on? The man in the middle calling the plays out of the huddle. The middle linebacker. Trotter. Funny, no problems from that position this year with Pierce huh? Who apparently didn't have any problems adapting to a well-established and completely new BLITZING scheme... compared to George Edwards defensive schemes... which he adopted the same scheme and terminology from the year before with Marvin Lewis as the coordinator. Listen, I don't expect you to know these things. You are an Eagles fan. But don't be preaching your crap around here. I haven't missed a game in 5 years. And I read every article and news source. So nothing is going over my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Gamebreaker Do your statistics show how many times Trotter blew his coverage or got burnt in coverage in '03? I think not. Or boneheaded personal foul penalties on 3rd and 30. Just no clue. Once you're wearing Eagle green.... you're a first ballot Hall of Famer. Typical Eagles tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Trotter, used the way he's built to be used, is a more impactful, better player than Pierce. However, this is a NARROW usage for Trotter that allows him to make an impact. Pierce and Trotter had similar statistical production the last couple of years. But, no one would suggest Trotter was in the same LEAGUE as Pierce with regard to how that production mattered. Pierce had fewer opportunities as teams ran far fewer plays against us than they ran against us when Trotter was here. Only 974 plays were run against us this year. When Trotter was here, it was 1014. In the running game where a defensive middle linebacker really cuts his teeth we had just 419 attempts against us this year versus 504 last year with Trotter. That's a difference of 85 carries, nearly THREE games worth of additional opportunities. And, within those greater opportunities, Trotter played behind an inactive defensive line. The system was designed to feed the linebackers last year and the linebackers were supposed to make plays. This year, the defensive line was far more active, taking up a dramatically higher percentage of the tackles per play than last year. In coverage, Pierce had an ability to get so deep he prevented attempts that would be tried against Trotter. Pierce changed games for us in a way Trotter never did for us. Now, Pierce couldn't snap in to the Eagle defense and be successful in the way Trotter can be. That's clear. Trotter's advantage over ANY player is when he's used the way he is built to be used. That's a downhill system. Trotter just can't change games when used like a rounded, complete player as Pierce was used and showed this year. Used the way he's used in Philly, Trotter will make more of the types of plays people notice. Used the way Pierce is used in Washington, he'll simply make plays no one notices. Where Trotter couldn't get guys in the right position or recognize plays, Pierce can. And it's that leadership that doesn't show up in the individual stats that do show up in the team stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerpsEagles Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard Once you're wearing Eagle green.... you're a first ballot Hall of Famer. Typical Eagles tool. ...well if that's true..... shouldn't Art Monk already be in the HOF ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TerpsEagles ...well if that's true..... shouldn't Art Monk already be in the HOF ? Impossible. Once you've been tainted by the burgundy and gold... you're irreparable I might be a Redskins fan... but I'm also a huge NFL. And I'm no homer. I've given props to the Eagles all the time. I've got nothing to hide... perform a search. But I've got no use for fools who have an agenda to degrade a team or its players.... because they're the "deadskins". I've been critical of Bailey before anyone jumped on that bandwagon 4 years ago. I've been critical of Smoot as recently as last year - hey, this year was his best by far. I've been critical of Stephen Davis, of Spurrier, of Schottenheimer. But one thing I don't do is visit other message boards... and crap on the team and fans. And I don't endorse our own fans exhibiting that kind of behavior as well. God knows I've banned more Redskins fans than any other.. including the DTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocono Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Gamebreaker Do your statistics show how many times Trotter blew his coverage or got burnt in coverage in '03? I think not. They are not my statistics and no they do not show how many times he blew his coverage or got burnt as it doesn't show how many times all the other players got burnt or blew their coverage. Unless you have inside info it's hard to tell just where each player is supposed to be on any given passing situation because if you could tell then maybe OC's could tell and it would make it hard to defend against the pass. The best indicator IMO of how well a LB is handling his PD responsibilities is how often the coach who designs that pass defense puts him on the field in passing situations. In nickel situations the field is loaded with WR's and there is no MLB in football that can be expected to stay with a WR in coverage so they are given areas to protect and the number of PD's is the number of times they got in the way of a pass in their area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Pocono They are not my statistics and no they do not show how many times he blew his coverage or got burnt as it doesn't show how many times all the other players got burnt or blew their coverage. Unless you have inside info it's hard to tell just where each player is supposed to be on any given passing situation because if you could tell then maybe OC's could tell and it would make it hard to defend against the pass. The best indicator IMO of how well a LB is handling his PD responsibilities is how often the coach who designs that pass defense puts him on the field in passing situations. In nickel situations the field is loaded with WR's and there is no MLB in football that can be expected to stay with a WR in coverage so they are given areas to protect and the number of PD's is the number of times they got in the way of a pass in their area. The middle linebacker's responsibility is always the running back. Even in passing situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Pocono They are not my statistics and no they do not show how many times he blew his coverage or got burnt as it doesn't show how many times all the other players got burnt or blew their coverage. Unless you have inside info it's hard to tell just where each player is supposed to be on any given passing situation because if you could tell then maybe OC's could tell and it would make it hard to defend against the pass. The best indicator IMO of how well a LB is handling his PD responsibilities is how often the coach who designs that pass defense puts him on the field in passing situations. In nickel situations the field is loaded with WR's and there is no MLB in football that can be expected to stay with a WR in coverage so they are given areas to protect and the number of PD's is the number of times they got in the way of a pass in their area. I have inside info you may have heard about. Trotter was told to stay away from the team. That's how much Williams wanted him gone. He was told, while being under contract, to stay away until the team could cut him. That's pretty telling, isn't it? Also, don't you think it's simplistic to the point of idiocy to suggest pass defensed numbers are actually a sign of good coverage in all cases? I mean, people who are REALLY good in coverage have low pass defensed numbers because teams don't throw there. Guys with high pass defensed numbers are frequently being tested. Sometimes they respond by knocking a ball down. Sometimes they give up catches. The fact that Pierce was in such good coverage as to take away attempts at many of the same routes frequently exploited when Trotter was in there is obvious and unable to be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Art Trotter was told to stay away from the team. That's how much Williams wanted him gone. He was told, while being under contract, to stay away until the team could cut him. That's pretty telling, isn't it? When there was talk of players "quitting" on the team last year... and it being evident by actions on the field... who do you think they were talking about? Coaches pick up on that stuff on tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard When there was talk of players "quitting" on the team last year... and it being evident by actions on the field... who do you think they were talking about? :laugh: I forgot about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerpsEagles Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard Impossible. Once you've been tainted by the burgundy and gold... you're irreparable I might be a Redskins fan... but I'm also a huge NFL. And I'm no homer. I've given props to the Eagles all the time. I've got nothing to hide... perform a search. But I've got no use for fools who have an agenda to degrade a team or its players.... because they're the "deadskins". I've been critical of Bailey before anyone jumped on that bandwagon 4 years ago. I've been critical of Smoot as recently as last year - hey, this year was his best by far. I've been critical of Stephen Davis, of Spurrier, of Schottenheimer. But one thing I don't do is visit other message boards... and crap on the team and fans. And I don't endorse our own fans exhibiting that kind of behavior as well. God knows I've banned more Redskins fans than any other.. including the DTC. Die Hard.... I really appreciate this board. I didn't even read this whole thread... just saw the Eagle green - HOF line and tried to make a joke. I certainly don't try to crap on any Skins fans or team on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TerpsEagles Die Hard.... I really appreciate this board. I didn't even read this whole thread... just saw the Eagle green - HOF line and tried to make a joke. I certainly don't try to crap on any Skins fans or team on this site. You're good dude. Just giving you a little perspective... that's all. I like everything about the Eagles... except 99.9% of their fans. Enough so that I cannot root for them for fear of the increase in workload around here. You know we've had 20 new registrations of Eagles fans here in the past 2 days? Why do you think that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard You know we've had 20 new registrations of Eagles fans here in the past 2 days? Why do you think that is? hmmmmmmm I wonder :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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