Pocono Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard In the last 3 seasons.... http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12774 2.5 sacks 2 INTs 273 tackles His best season is 120 tackles.... do me a favor. Find me a middle linebacker in the NFL who hasn't recorded 100+ tackles. Please. Further, i'm not going to count Pro Bowls as a measure of talent. That's for fools. And actually, passes defensed would show 30. What's up with you and you're messing with stats? This is at least twice now. If you're going to continue down this road... I'm going to get rid of you because you don't have any value here as a liar with an agenda. Trotter has played under 3 different DC's in his career. I said nothing about 3 years. ESPN credits him with 37 PD's during his career and 7 ints. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=4480 Could you please point out the other instance where you say I've been a liar with an agenda because I research my posts pretty well and believe I contribute a lot of new info and analysis to your forum especially in the area of the CBA and the salary cap. Perhaps that was another example of you misinterpreting what I was trying to say so perhaps I could revisit the post and either explain what I was saying or apologize if I used the stats incorrectly. I enjoy this forum and enjoy it's rabid fans and treat others with respect and I'm frankly shocked by your attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Die Hard http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3339622 NFL on FOX analyst Daryl Johnston I don't even think of Trotter as a middle linebacker. He plays more like a defensive lineman that lines up off the ball in the middle. That's why Trotter struggled in Washington, because he didn't fit well in Marvin Lewis' scheme. He is a downhill, disruptive force between the guard-center gaps on either side of the ball. That's all he's trying to do. I can't understand why every person out their dogs Trotter for it. The tone people have, you would think anyone can do what Trotter does. If that was the case, we would see more of it. Becuase the guy is definatly a disruptive force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 I can't understand why every person out their dogs Trotter for it. The tone people have, you would think anyone can do what Trotter does. If that was the case, we would see more of it. Becuase the guy is definatly a disruptive force. Trotter is a one-trick pony. He's good at what he does. But he is not well-suited for Williams scheme for the reasons mentioned previously. Though Williams called for plenty of blitzes from ALL angles and positions... the 1 position he didn't send the dogs was from the MLB spot. Trotter isn't a good coverage linebacker. He doesn't play well in space and blows his assignments. What the frig is so complicated about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Well, maybe becuase Peirce is better suited to lay back. The Eagles didn't play Mark Simoneau like Trotter, when he was starting. Good coaches utilyze players according to their strengths. You can't assume Williams didn't do it becuase he didn't want to. If Trotter was in Washington, he would probably still have the same success he is having now. Heck even Gibbs said he made a mistake cutting him. And in the rebuttle to people who want to argue that Gibbs was just being nice when he said that. I think thats toatally redicolous. You don't need to go so far as to say it was a mistake cutting a player, in order to compliment them. All have to say is, they like their guy, we like ours, and thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 Well, maybe becuase Peirce is better suited to lay back. The Eagles didn't play Mark Simoneau like Trotter, when he was starting. Good coaches utilyze players according to their strengths. You can't assume Williams didn't do it becuase he didn't want to. Who did the Redskins sign for the starting MLB spot prior to his season-ending injury? What was his MO? Who was the starting middle linebacker for the Buffalo Bills in his 3 seasons there? What was his MO? London Fletcher - http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12371 2003 - 133 tackles, 2 sacks, 0 INTs 2002 - 147 tackles, 3 sacks, 0 INTs In 2001, Sam Cowart suffered a season-ending injury early and didn't play. ------------------- It's fairly obvious what kind of linebacker is suited for Williams' style of defense. And just because you're "happy with your guy" it doesn't negate the fact that you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkipper Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I remember at one point during last offseason, Gibbs said in a press conference that they were weeding out the players that didn't have the study habits or smarts that it took to be a Redskin. Two days later, he cut Trotter. I am not saying Trotter isn't a smart guy, but Gregg Williams raves at how smart Pierce is. Williams loves having another "coach" on the field playing MLB. Trot didn't do it for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 How are Peirces leadership skills? I know when Trotter took the field, his mental impact on everyone else, probably matched his own play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 How are Peirces leadership skills? I know when Trotter took the field, his mental impact on everyone else, probably matched his own play. :laugh: Pierce was the leader on the Skins defense, he was an extension of coach Williams on the field. He didn't thump his chest or act the fool after every tackle but instead used his brains to aid his team mates to make plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Is that a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 How are Peirces leadership skills? I know when Trotter took the field, his mental impact on everyone else, probably matched his own play. http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=3615 Since 2001, linebacker Antonio Pierce has quietly waited his turn. He signed with the Redskins as an undrafted rookie out of Arizona that year. He mostly served as a backup, occasional starter and contributor on special teams. Meantime, the Redskins signed a pair of Pro Bowlers to start with LaVar Arrington at linebacker: Jessie Armstead and Jeremiah Trotter. This year, the team added veteran Mike Barrow to start at middle linebacker. Barrow missed four preseason games and the first two regular-season games due to knee tendonitis. Assistant head coach-defense Gregg Williams turned to the versatile Pierce, who had never played middle linebacker before but was more than willing to fill in. Pierce has been one of the keys of the Redskins' top-ranked defense in the early going, recording a team-high 22 tackles (14 solo) in two games. His fourth quarter interception in the season-opening 16-10 win over Tampa Bay led to John Hall's go-ahead 30-yard field goal. "He has been outstanding for us," head coach Joe Gibbs said. "Our defensive coaches think he's smart enough to play linebacker at any position. He gets our defensive guys lined up in the right places several times in those critical situations where it can get real confusing." Added Williams: "We practice with a fast pace and getting the play calls in quickly enough. Now I get about halfway through the signals. I do about one or two movements and all of a sudden Antonio just turns around, ignores me and calls the play. He is ahead and he knows what I am thinking. He's a smart kid. That helps the pace of the game." With Barrow listed as questionable for Monday's game against Dallas, Pierce continues to work with the first-team defense. Gibbs has said that he hopes the defense can find a way to get Pierce on the field even after Barrow returns. "It's good to get noticed, but I still feel like I have a lot to prove," Pierce said. "I want to prove that I can go week-in and week-out and do what I do. I hope they can find a way to keep me on the field, but that's the coach's decision. All I can do is play as hard as I can." Pierce started eight games his rookie year when ex-Redskins linebacker Shawn Barber went down with a knee injury. But he started just two games in 2002 and played mostly on special teams last year. In his career, he has 86 tackles, one sack and one forced fumble. This year, Pierce says his patience is paying off. He believes he has always had the talent to be a starter but had to work his way up the depth chart. "With this organization, in the past we've brought in linebackers with more experience, so all I can do is work my way up," Pierce said. "Every time I'm in there, I'm trying to make plays." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 Is that a problem? what, Pierce being an all around MLB and complete package in Williams defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookie0720 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Trotter is one hell of a run support LB, but is absolutely awful in coverage. Pierce is a more balanced player who can play all 3 downs. Pierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by bubba9497 Pierce was the leader on the Skins defense, he was an extension of coach Williams on the field. He didn't thump his chest or act the fool after every tackle but instead used his brains to aid his team mates to make plays. Smoot and Washington do all the dancing and chest-thumping on defense. Heck, even Salevea with his guitar playing dance for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by bubba9497 what, Pierce being an all around MLB and complete package in Williams defense? No. Is the ax chop a problem? You seemed to imply looking down upon it. On a side note, today it just occured to me, all of the eagles starting linebackers for the NFC Championship were once on each of the other NFC East teams. Keith Adams in Dallas. Trotter in Washington. and Dhani Jones in New York. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagles_Legendz Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I think each team got the player they wanted. That is all that's important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The Eagles fans in this thread are getting whupped so badly in this debate I might have to call 9-1-1. It's friggin' abuse people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 No. Is the ax chop a problem? You seemed to imply looking down upon it. On a side note, today it just occured to me, all of the eagles starting linebackers for the NFC Championship were once on each of the other NFC East teams. Keith Adams in Dallas. Trotter in Washington. and Dhani Jones in New York. celebrating after every tackle is bush league. after a big play ocasionally... ok ......but not every single tackle I'm not thrilled when Smoot & MW do it, it cost us a stupid penalty against Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by bubba9497 I'm not thrilled when Smoot & MW do it, it cost us a stupid pealty against Detroit. Agreed. I'm against celebrations altogether. When I made a play.... you know what made me proud? When my teammates patted me on the back and said "nice play". The only time for celebration is after the final whistle... when the final score shows you won. And even then.... you should maintain class and dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousB15 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Well first. He usually does the ax after a tackle for a loss. Or perhaps a third down stop. Both of which, are big enough to do it, I think. Its not exactly in the league of greenbays back up tight end, spiking the ball on the eagles logo in the endzone, after narrowing the score to about a 30 point difference. Second. Isn't that celebration you referring to, one where it appeared to be a coordinated celebration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by TenaciousB15 Second. Isn't that celebration you referring to, one where it appeared to be a coordinated celebration? Yes, however, it wasn't coordinated. Marcus was doing is "robot" dance.... and Smoot was behind him.. stood there for a sec... got excited... and then did behind him for EXACTLY 2 steps.. and then stopped - while Marcus continued. It wasn't coordinated. It was spontaneous. But it still cost us 15 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstape Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The thing is the redskins do not need EVERY good player in the league.. yes trotter is a very good middle linebacker and the truth is that pierce is a budding linebacker.. i think the patriots have proved that success is not dependent upon talent albeit talent makes a difference, but more than anything how a team works together is the most important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark84 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Tenacious, if you have ever followed Joe Gibbs in the least, he says nothing that would imply being negative to a current or former player. He did not regret cutting Trotter for one second. In case you didn't see buddy, the D here wasn't the problem. Gibbs was complimenting Trotter in his own way. He didn't want him nor his salary. I am not degrading Trotter in the least, he fits your team and as an Eagles fan you should like that. As a Redskin fan, I would not take Trotter over Pierce no matter the circumstance. Coach Gibbs and Gregg Williams made that call and look how it turned out? Oh by the way, not sure if it has been on here or not, but did anyone else notice Trotter wearing a Doug Williams throwback on the pregame interview? That was strange. He must have left a little more of his heart here than he realized, where was his Jaworski jersey? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocono Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Pocono Trotter has played under 3 different DC's in his career. I said nothing about 3 years. ESPN credits him with 37 PD's during his career and 7 ints. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=4480 Could you please point out the other instance where you say I've been a liar with an agenda because I research my posts pretty well and believe I contribute a lot of new info and analysis to your forum especially in the area of the CBA and the salary cap. Perhaps that was another example of you misinterpreting what I was trying to say so perhaps I could revisit the post and either explain what I was saying or apologize if I used the stats incorrectly. I enjoy this forum and enjoy it's rabid fans and treat others with respect and I'm frankly shocked by your attack. So what's the story Die Hard? Am I a "liar with an agenda" because ESPN recorded a different number of PD's for Trotter than your source? Did you locate the other instance you referred to as proof that I'm a liar with an agenda? Hey it's your board and it's something to be proud of and you can bounce me for any reason you want but if you publicly label someone a liar based on different statistical references don't you have a responsibility as a man to either retract your statement or prove it? I mean am I supposed to consider myself warned and if so what am I being warned about and how can I modify my behavior as to not incur your wrath again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 pocono wrote: don't you have a responsibility as a man to either retract your statement or prove it? Um..... Wow. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Originally posted by Pocono So what's the story Die Hard? Am I a "liar with an agenda" because ESPN recorded a different number of PD's for Trotter than your source? Did you locate the other instance you referred to as proof that I'm a liar with an agenda? Hey it's your board and it's something to be proud of and you can bounce me for any reason you want but if you publicly label someone a liar based on different statistical references don't you have a responsibility as a man to either retract your statement or prove it? I mean am I supposed to consider myself warned and if so what am I being warned about and how can I modify my behavior as to not incur your wrath again? When I look up statistics, it would be from the official site of whatever I'm researching. It's pretty convenient that you'd use ESPN... which coincidentally displays a few higher stats. When you manipulate statistics... and conveniently use the source which better proves your argument... you are a liar. Furthermore, as I only read and didn't participate in the thread in which you previously skewed the figures, I'm inquiring to the appropriate parties to identify the thread. Lastly, don't question my "manhood". You're a prototypical troll here. You are not a good-natured fan like some of your peers. You come here to antogonize the members of this community. The only thing that's keeping you alive is you haven't resorted to flaming and completely idiotic posting. But anybody with half of brain knows what your are... and what your intentions are. I'm just waiting for you to give me a "good" reason. And we're getting there quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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