Opponents Agree: Brunell is the problem

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Originally posted by bulldog

come on, don't pee down my back and tell me it is raining

Please see the pic in Bubba's finger pointing thread.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[mad4comp]

Brunell showed he still had some game left in him..just not enough to win a game. I agree he is good on some points, like scrambling, avoiding sacks etc... but other than that hes practically useless. Anyone see that pass to garder ? that floater, it had interception written all over it, my heart almost stopped for a second, good thing 50/50 changed to 70/30 for this game. And one more thing, some people are saying that Ramsey holds onto the ball too much and is prone to sacks...well not exactly. Brunell's blind side is covered by Ray Brown, not who i would want covering that side. Now if Ramsey were in the game, he'd have Samuels covering the blindside (not great protection, but better than Brown), and if someone rushes past Brown, Ramsey can get the ball out asap, and there wont be that many sacks. Watching Brunell the last couple of games, he looks like everytime he sees a guy open downfield, he knows he cant get the ball to him so he just dumps it off, or scrambles, or throws it away, and in the end he holds the ball for about an hour, and gets 2 yards out of the play. With ramsey i can see the ball getting out quicker and reaching the WR's faster. Now lastly, as far as Gibbs protecting Brunell and saying "Hes got Experience and makes good decisions etc...." How the hell can Gibbs (no bash on gibbs, just pissed atm) make a comment like that if Brunell doesnt do enough to put the team (or himself) in those situations. We cant judge him for what hes done in the past, even Gibbs doesnt look to the past and the SB Trophies, so why is it different for Brunell ??

In conclusion: Brunell is good, but not good enough for the "Stop Gap" situation hes being put in. Ramsey on the other hand, has much upside and can be a great QB if given the chance. I hope Brunell gets Benched in favor of Ramsey, not because hes bad, just because hes not getting it done, Plain and Simple as that.

Just my insights

Take care peeps.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

What details or information do you give?

And you're lying, I mean FLAT OUT LYING. I did a rather in-depth statistical analysis that included(earlier in the season) Tampa Bay and Washington offensive and defensive statistics AND the numbers comparison between Brad Johnson and Mark Brunell and compared Tampa's benching of Brad to our non-benching of BRunell.

Don't lie about my posts. Some of them are "extreme" and of the "bash" variety, but the facts are out there beyond all level of rational countering. The visual evidence is in, now all-pro defensive players are chiming in.

Look, bubba, the quote from Sharper IS backing. Or we can bring in your whining about 10 penalties, that'll really address the QB situation.

:bsflag:

no one has broke down the plays, and explained what happened and how the plays are Brunells fault.. not once. Comparing Brad johnsons stats with Brunell, is not detailing the breakdowns by Brunell.

ghost, you know that you are the one lying now , I have repeatedly broke down plays, and tivo'd plays, showed images from the plays in defense of Brunell and other players when it was justified. example was the missed pass to Coles in the Bears game, where Coles broke inside, and Brunell went to the outside. I have given numerious points today, pointing out flaws of others on offense that lead to break downs on offense... but like I said before.. you refuse to accept anything other than it is all Brunells fault.

and more about the Sharper comment, you take his word as verbatem, but totally dismiss Favre (a NFL quarterbacK) opinion because you say he is friends with Brunell. Which backs my point that you only accept opinions and info that bashes Brunell... and have no objectivity in your threads. at least myself, jbooma and others admitt that Brunell has made mistakes, but we realize that it is more than just one person, causing all the break downs on offense.

[WilberMarshall]

Originally posted by bubba9497

the problem is ghost, is you gio way out of your way to find anything to bash Brunell with, but refuse to accept anything positive in his favor/ or positive about him. Your posts are neither objective, or informative... just the typical bash bash bash variety.

I have yet to read a single post by any Brunell basher give a detail explanation of how everything is Brunell's fault. No detail of the play, and what he did wrong, or how he caused the others to fail. It is just easy to point a finger and say it is all Brunell, or Brunell got a weak arm... yadda yadda yadda... but no real substance.

you have an obsession that is boarding on the extreme. (no pun inteneded).

as they say "opinions are like ass-holes"

"everyone has one, and most of them stink." :bow:

Bubba, much respect... but before you defend Brunell, you need to be at the games lLIVE!!!

There are OPEN receivers... the ball is NOT even in the same Zip code as the intended receivers...

How can we know everything that is his fault when he does not even put the ball up for the receivers to make plays for him... we are using 3 wide receivers sets yet he can't find someone open, he can't execute flare passes to a back who is capable of making people miss in open field...

Been to games, GUYS are WIDE Open... and he ain't hitting them... and I am not a Ramsey fan...

[bulldog]

I have been watching this team since the early 1970's, this is some of the worst quarterbacking I have seen.

You can point to some transitional types such as Mike Kruczek in 1980, Gus Frerotte in the mid to late 90's and Tony Banks in 2001, but those players were relative unknowns compared to a 12 year veteran such as Brunell.

And we gave up precious little to acquire them.

The Brunell deal has already set us back a season it seems now and that bonus will hurt us down the road as we will have the highest paid backup quarterback in 2005.

[Ghost of]

Where are YOUR breakdowns Bubba?

And Skins26 and I(to a lesser degree) have broken down clips or video of the games.

I'm not exactly sure what phantom posters you'r referring to, if anything I've seen no real arguments or breakdowns from the pro-Brunell side. All I get is smart-mouthed responses and "gibbs knows all" posts.

You've given stats here and there but the proof is in the pudding. People know bad play when they see it, bubba.

You need to stop misrepresenting the other side, because that 'other' side consists of many, MANY more people than the like 2-3 cats you have left.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Here is the thing.

This team does not need a HERO at QB.

But as Bulldog just said, Brunell has been a ZERO.

If we got SOMETHING from Brunell we would have at least 2 more wins.

[Skins26]

Originally posted by bubba9497

:bsflag:

no one has broke down the plays, and explained what happened and how the plays are Brunells fault.. not once. Comparing Brad johnsons stats with Brunell, is not detailing the breakdowns by Brunell.

ghost, you know that you are the one lying now , I have repeatedly broke down plays, and tivo'd plays, showed images from the plays in defense of Brunell and other players when it was justified. example was the missed pass to Coles in the Bears game, where Coles broke inside, and Brunell went to the outside. I have given numerious points today, pointing out flaws of others on offense that lead to break downs on offense... but like I said before.. you refuse to accept anything other than it is all Brunells fault.

and more about the Sharper comment, you take his word as verbatem, but totally dismiss Favre (a NFL quarterbacK) opinion because you say he is friends with Brunell. Which backs my point that you only accept opinions and info that bashes Brunell... and have no objectivity in your threads. at least myself, jbooma and others admitt that Brunell has made mistakes, but we realize that it is more than just one person, causing all the break downs on offense.

To defend myself here as a Brunell basher I have broken down the plays. Most recently in my thread entitled "Brunell is scared" you might have not looked at it because it appears like the usual just bashing but I broke down two similar plays by Ramsey last year and Brunell today showing what Brunell did wrong and how much it hurt us and has been hurting us.

And I also have accepted the things Brunell has done well, he read that blitz nicely and threw it to Portis today, it just got called back.

[ummagumma]

Originally posted by bubba9497

the problem is ghost, is you gio way out of your way to find anything to bash Brunell with, but refuse to accept anything positive in his favor/ or positive about him. Your posts are neither objective, or informative... just the typical bash bash bash variety.

I have yet to read a single post by any Brunell basher give a detail explanation of how everything is Brunell's fault. No detail of the play, and what he did wrong, or how he caused the others to fail. It is just easy to point a finger and say it is all Brunell, or Brunell got a weak arm... yadda yadda yadda... but no real substance.

you have an obsession that is boarding on the extreme. (no pun inteneded).

as they say "opinions are like ass-holes"

"everyone has one, and most of them stink." :bow:

You keep making the statement that we say Brunell is totally the problem. Most people DON'T say that. We think he's the BIGGEST problem and therefore the one most needed to be fixed. Why can't you admit that he's not very good? Why would Wilbon lie...why would the players he refers to week after week lie? Why is there criticism on target with what MOST of us see? It's not all his fault. In fact, it's not his 'fault' at all. I don't expect him to bench himself. It goes to Gibbs and his offensive staff. What other conclusion is there to reach. I agree, in general, Ghost needs to back off since we all know exactly what he thinks. But in this case, that article is an 3rd party arbitor of sorts that supports Ghosts strong positon and makes it even stronger. You and Jbooma can dismiss it out of hand, but you look foolish in doing so.

[Destino]

Bottom line, he's not getting it done. It's that simple. 2-5

[bulldog]

you know it's funny, if we flip back to 1997-1998 and go back to what was happening under Norv Turner I remember hearing the same pro arguments in regards to players such as Gus Frerotte and Skip Hicks.

There were those of us that believed Frerotte would never lead the Redskins to title contention and there were those that believed that Frerotte was being hampered by the lack of playmakers at wide receiver and a less than ideal situation on the offensive line.

Ditto with Skip Hicks. While some of us saw his inconsistency and attitude problems as being danger signals, others thought we had a player that was on the verge of becoming a 1,300 yard rusher for us.

No, I don't need to break down each and every play of each game to see that Brunell is not getting the job done. Why?

Because the bottom line is the quarterback touches the ball on 100% of the offensive plays each week.

Over time, unless there are wholesale injuries, talent wins out.

Do you honestly think that if the Redskins had Brett Favre under center that we would be scoring 14 points per game with Portis as the tailback, Coles as the leading receiver and with the offensive line we have (solid but not spectacular)?

of course not. and you could pencil in any number of productive NFL quarterbacks and be confident we would be getting better numbers than 51% completions and a third down conversion rate that is one of the worst in the conference.

[bobzmuda]

Originally posted by bubba9497

:laugh: Darren Sharper didn't even play

and what jbooma said

I've been saying Brunell's shook for weeks now. I could care less if he's "scared" if he can KEEP HIS EYES DOWNFIELD. But he can't. He keeps looking for the rush, even if it's not there.

He actually did a better job today, but he's still a skittish kitten in the pocket. That is not the sign of a confident QB who feels he's in control of what's going on.

Bottom line, however, this is Gibb's responsibility. He's not making the offense go and he's responsible for it as Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator. He can go with whoever he wants, but he's responsible for it. He's chosen to go with Brunell and whoever else, and he's 2-5. With the way the defense has played, if he gets even a mediocre effort from the offense, this team is 4-3.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by ummagumma

You keep making the statement that we say Brunell is totally the problem. Most people DON'T say that. We think he's the BIGGEST problem and therefore the one most needed to be fixed. Why can't you admit that he's not very good? Why would Wilbon lie...why would the players he refers to week after week lie? Why is there criticism on target with what MOST of us see? It's not all his fault. In fact, it's not his 'fault' at all. I don't expect him to bench himself. It goes to Gibbs and his offensive staff. What other conclusion is there to reach. I agree, in general, Ghost needs to back off since we all know exactly what he thinks. But in this case, that article is an 3rd party arbitor of sorts that supports Ghosts strong positon and makes it even stronger. You and Jbooma can dismiss it out of hand, but you look foolish in doing so.

Wow, thanks for owning my critics!

Yeah, I didn't even add commentary to the first post, and it was DARREN FRIGGIN SHARPER and I get called out by the same two cats.

Thing is, there were people who supported whatever Spurrier and Turner did too. It's the nature of a sports or even political message board.

The critics can get out of control, but they can also be right. It's not my job to correct bubba's misrepresenting his opponents' positions. Very FEW of us have said Brunell is the ONLY problem but that entire argument is disingenuous. No team is perfect, thus no QB is entirely at fault. But a QB's poor play disproportionately impacts a team and turns good players into inconsistent players.

Unless people think Rice would have been as good with Matthews throwing to him instead of Young and Montana.

[laurent]

Originally posted by Skins26

And I also have accepted the things Brunell has done well, he read that blitz nicely and threw it to Portis today, it just got called back.

That play was actually designed that way and had been set up all game long. Kudos to Brunell though for actually hitting the receiver..

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

Where are YOUR breakdowns Bubba?

And Skins26 and I(to a lesser degree) have broken down clips or video of the games.

I'm not exactly sure what phantom posters you'r referring to, if anything I've seen no real arguments or breakdowns from the pro-Brunell side. All I get is smart-mouthed responses and "gibbs knows all" posts.

You've given stats here and there but the proof is in the pudding. People know bad play when they see it, bubba.

You need to stop misrepresenting the other side, because that 'other' side consists of many, MANY more people than the like 2-3 cats you have left.

just because many people feel one way don't make them right.

I am not going to go back and link every thread I detailed plays, and the such.. they are all over this forum, and you know it.. as do others. I am not misrepresenting nothing.

I am tired of playing this he said/ she said stuff.

I will give you a nugget of some points in todays game that hurt the offense that wasn't directly related to Brunell

Numerous penalties that ended drives, or gave the packers new life to continue drives.

4 sacks, all due to OL breakdowns.

Play selection, the 3rd and 1 screen pass (even though it was a bad pass.. was a terrible call)

The lack of any running game in the first half.

the numberous negative plays in the first half, Portis getting stop behind the line, stwo or three pass plays that lost yardage.

at least three dropped first down passes.

A couple of Brunell's misses where results of heavy pressure of the packer defense.

The 1st INT was caused by a packer DL hitting brunnels arm as he threw the ball.

Brunell had three terrible over throws directly his fault as I remember..but will give a more detailed explanation after rewatching the game later in the week.

[Skins26]

Originally posted by bubba9497

just because many people feel one way don't make them right.

I am not going to go back and link every thread I detailed plays, and the such.. they are all over this forum, and you know it.. as do others. I am not misrepresenting nothing.

I am tired of playing this he said/ she said stuff.

I will give you a nugget of some points in todays game that hurt the offense that wasn't directly related to Brunell

Numerous penalties that ended drives, or gave the packers new life to continue drives.

4 sacks, all due to OL breakdowns.

Play selection, the 3rd and 1 screen pass (even though it was a bad pass.. was a terrible call)

The lack of any running game in the first half.

the numberous negative plays in the first half, Portis getting stop behind the line, stwo or three pass plays that lost yardage.

at least three dropped first down passes.

A couple of Brunell's misses where results of heavy pressure of the packer defense.

The 1st INT was caused by a packer DL hitting brunnels arm as he threw the ball.

Brunell had three terrible over throws directly his fault as I remember..but will give a more detailed explanation after rewatching the game later in the week.

My breakdown in the Brunell is scared thread is very clear to see and an almost exact replica of that play a year ago by Ramsey shows why he can do it.

There were O Line breakdowns and there were drops.

But there was one in paticular play where we could have been in a better position to win the game if Brunell showed some courage.

Like I said, i'm not asking for pinpoint accuracy, i'm not asking for a cannon arm, I think we could win if our QB had more courage, and Ramsey has that.

[flexxskins]

Someone put it correctly today before the game...Brunell, is a band-aid. And in my humble opinion, band-aids are very temporary...(which Brunell should be).

[mad4comp]

Hey Bubba, maybe you should add Destino's sig pic to your sig

[jbooma]

Has any of the anti-brunell folks thought the reason Ramsey isn't playing because Gibbs feels our OL can't protect him?? We are running so many bootlegs and someone correct me if I am wrong, but Gibbs never did that in the past. I feel he is keeping Brunell in there because he gives us the best chance in winning. If you look at todays game we were one bad call from winning the game.

I don't think any of the pro-brunell crew has said we think Mark can but better numbers up, I just feel watching that OL that he give us the best chance to win, even if our passing game is stinking. The loss of Jansen now shows how big a loss it was.

I am starting to think that Joe is protecting Ramsey now, maybe because of what happened last year.

[mad4comp]

Originally posted by jbooma

Has any of the anti-brunell folks thought the reason Ramsey isn't playing because Gibbs feels our OL can't protect him?? We are running so many bootlegs and someone correct me if I am wrong, but Gibbs never did that in the past. I feel he is keeping Brunell in there because he gives us the best chance in winning. If you look at todays game we were one bad call from winning the game.

I don't think any of the pro-brunell crew has said we think Mark can but better numbers up, I just feel watching that OL that he give us the best chance to win, even if our passing game is stinking. The loss of Jansen now shows how big a loss it was.

I am starting to think that Joe is protecting Ramsey now, maybe because of what happened last year.

Then put Hasselbeck in there, he doesnt have Ramsey's arm, but his still pretty mobile and makes some good decisions. And not to mention, he'd probably move the offense more effeciently than Brunell.

[bulldog]

Brunell is not the Redskins only problem on offense. Gibbs is still trying to figure out how best to scheme for Portis to run most effectively. The protection is inconsistent, sometimes rock solid and then at other times guys come free on clear losses in the one on one battles.

That said, IF we were getting better than average play from the qb position, ie better accuracy on the throws that are there to be completed and better decision-making in some key situations, these other failings would be less obvious.

I went along with the suggestion that Ramsey needed more seasoning based on the chaos of the past 2 years under Spurrier, but that was based on the confidence that Mark Brunell would play the role of the solid, dependable and opportunistic vet.

No one expected Brunell to be Brett Favre. But we certainly expected a more confident and accurate pocket passer than the player we have seen to this point.

[The Wicked Wop]

Nothing like a loss to bring us all together....

Look people......Gibbs or no Gibbs.....Brunell is not getting it done. I have nothing against the guy.....I actually like him.....but he simply is not getting it done. Now if for a couple of straight weeks he wasnt getting it done, then I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

But class, really, 7 games into the season, and we look as pathetic on offense as ever. Sure, chemistry and this that and the other play a part......but we have been seeing the same mess for 7....yes I said 7, straight games.

Maybe Ramsey's the answer, maybe not.......maybe Hasselback is the answer, maybe not.....but at this point I kinda think you need to shake something up.

Now if he put the ball on the numbers, I would be calling for a wideouts head....not his.......but Brunell clearly cost us a TD and 3 or more first downs plain and simple.......NOBODY, I SAID NOBODY on offense cost us so much.....that is why he should take the blame.....and that is why a change needs to be made.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by mad4comp

Then put Hasselbeck in there, he doesnt have Ramsey's arm, but his still pretty mobile and makes some good decisions. And not to mention, he'd probably move the offense more effeciently than Brunell.

i wouldn't be against that, but it would be a slap in the face to Ramsey

[Skins26]

Originally posted by jbooma

Has any of the anti-brunell folks thought the reason Ramsey isn't playing because Gibbs feels our OL can't protect him?? We are running so many bootlegs and someone correct me if I am wrong, but Gibbs never did that in the past. I feel he is keeping Brunell in there because he gives us the best chance in winning. If you look at todays game we were one bad call from winning the game.

I don't think any of the pro-brunell crew has said we think Mark can but better numbers up, I just feel watching that OL that he give us the best chance to win, even if our passing game is stinking. The loss of Jansen now shows how big a loss it was.

I am starting to think that Joe is protecting Ramsey now, maybe because of what happened last year.

This could be it but i'm thinking it could be a different reason.

Gibbs definitly knows Brunell is the problem so far thats for sure, we would be ignorant to think otherwise, he's smarter than us, everyone else sees it.

I think he could be holding Ramsey out for a different reason but its a long reason so I am going to start another thread about it. It will be up shortly.

[The Sisko]

Actually Bubba I made specific observations regarding Brunell's performance in this thread

You didn't answer however the threads were moving downwards pretty quickly and I suspect you didn't see it.

Unfortunately by your contention that Brunell may have had 4 or 5 bad passes you show the rosy tint of your Brunell glasses. By my generous count it was more like 13....thir-fricking-teeeeen dude!!!

If you want me to list specific plays I will, however I'll be working from my quickly scribbled notes since I had to erase the game already (space is kinda tight on ye olde TiVo).