JangoFett Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 We've seen our spirited debate over who the Skins should draft roughly divided among those who support drafting Taylor, Winslow or D-line in some way or another, the last of which groups, while lacking consensus, probably favors Udeze (with TH a close second). Among the D-line camp, most have supported this approach in connection with a trade-down scenario largely due to the perception that no d-lineman in this years' draft is worth the #5 overall pick. Udeze has been viewed as a DE with excellent natural strength and quickness who produced impressive sack and FF numbers at the collegiate level but is still too unpolished in his technique to be considered a slam dunk for stardom in the pros. He is seen as a good solid guy (i.e. moderate to low bust probability) with some potential to be a special pro. If I may suggest, Kernard Lang, a former Skins 1st round selection, serves as an example of how a fairly talented DE worthy of a first round selection based on collegiate productivity and physical abilities projects as a solid contribuitor over the span of seven seasons. It's a rough (and many Udeze supporters might say unrepresentative) proxy for Udeze's potential, but I think it's sensible to make conservative projections when you talk about first rounders. Lang should not be considered a bust--he had 8 sacks last year--but he certainly never completely fulfilled his promise (average of 1 sack every 3 games). Here are Lang's career stats: YEAR TEAM G GS TOT SOLO AST SK SYD STF STYD SF FF BK INT YDS AVG LNG TD PD 1997 WAS 12 11 35 26 9 1.5 11.0 6.0 14.0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2 1998 WAS 16 16 54 48 6 7.0 25.0 1.0 3.0 0 2 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 8 1999 WAS 16 9 37 34 3 6.0 35.0 9.0 31.0 0 3 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 6 2000 WAS 16 0 16 16 0 3.0 33.0 3.0 11.0 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 5 2001 WAS 16 16 67 53 14 4.0 24.0 7.5 15.0 0 3 0 1 14 14.0 14 0 4 2002 CLE 15 14 46 33 13 5.5 40.0 3.5 7.5 0 2 0 1 71 71.0 71 0 4 2003 CLE 15 15 60 46 14 8.0 53.5 5.5 7.5 0 1 0 1 0 0.0 0 0 2 Total 105 81 315 254 61 35.0 221 0.0 0 0 12 0 3 85 28.0 71 0 31 My question for the d-line contingent--assuming Udeze (or Smith) turns out to be slightly better and more consistent than Lang over the course of his career, do you still pull the trigger on the trade down if you can get a second rounder? This will depend on what you get in the second round of course. Consider the scenario in contrast to Maske's thesis of getting a player with a good chance to be great (Winslow or Taylor). No doubt many Udeze supports will be unhappy with the comparison. I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnacpa Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Not sure I agree with this analysis ... if you look at Portis vs. Trung Candidate ... both are listed around the same height and weight. I would much rather have Portis in the backfield than Trung. Lang and Udeze are different people with different skills. Udeze could become the next Kearse, or could become the next bust, or somewhere in between. Too hard to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 excellent question. you will be bombarded with "you don't know in advance" criticisms. I'm in the Maske camp based on how the question was put.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 and how can you say no to the possible best at their position K2 after fighting for Lang :laugh: :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Jesus, the guy ahsnt even had his workout yet and we are branding him as the next Kenard Lang :doh: If you want to get into this, just look at Teyo Johnson formerly of Stanford and now of the Raiders. He had a more productive year in his senior season on a less talented team than KW2 did in his senior year. But no one here is calling KW2 the next Steven Alexander. Every player in the draft has the potential to be either a rising star or a lead balloon. That’s why the draft is so very unpredictable. I’d like to see if Udeze’s workout numbers back up my enthusiasm for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Originally posted by Oldskool Jesus, the guy ahsnt even had his workout yet and we are branding him as the next Kenard Lang :doh: If you want to get into this, just look at Teyo Johnson formerly of Stanford and now of the Raiders. He had a more productive year in his senior season on a less talented team than KW2 did in his senior year. But no one here is calling KW2 the next Steven Alexander. Every player in the draft has the potential to be either a rising star or a lead balloon. That’s why the draft is so very unpredictable. I’d like to see if Udeze’s workout numbers back up my enthusiasm for him. his workout is today right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Originally posted by terpfan his workout is today right? USC’s Pro day is Friday, March 26th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor The Invincible Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Lang was a good D-lineman when he was here. He really showed promise particularly in the last season he was here, playing at DT. He could get some great penetration. I would love to have him back. Unfortunatly, our FO seems to think we're just dandy on the D-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JangoFett Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 If you want to get into this, just look at Teyo Johnson formerly of Stanford and now of the Raiders. He had a more productive year in his senior season on a less talented team than KW2 did in his senior year. Oldskool, Johnson played WR on the Farm. He was drafted as a TE becuase of his height and lack of nfl-WR speed. That stanfurd team did suck, I agree (much to my delight being a Cal alum). But you also have to take into account that Buddy Tevens is as pass happy a coach as our departed ol' ball coach. That's not suprising since Tevens was Spurrier's OC at FLA. Point taken, Lang underachieved. He's not a total bust though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Originally posted by Oldskool Jesus, the guy ahsnt even had his workout yet and we are branding him as the next Kenard Lang :doh: If you want to get into this, just look at Teyo Johnson formerly of Stanford and now of the Raiders. He had a more productive year in his senior season on a less talented team than KW2 did in his senior year. But no one here is calling KW2 the next Steven Alexander. Every player in the draft has the potential to be either a rising star or a lead balloon. That’s why the draft is so very unpredictable. I’d like to see if Udeze’s workout numbers back up my enthusiasm for him. Misinformation is bliss. Teyo Johnson was also the #1 WR for the Cardinal, who as far as I know (could be wrong) are a traditionally passing team. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons Elway chose to go there. Either way, he was the primary target going up against small college DBs. At 6-7, it's no surprise he stood out. He only started playing TE after he was drafted. Also, Stanford didn't face defenses like Miami. It's comparing two different things. Martin Nance of Miami (OH) had a MUCH better season than Winslow, but guess what? He's a WR. You can't compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 All I can see Udeze being is an 8 sack a year guy, which is pretty solid. But I think Taylor or Winslow will be in the pro bowl possibly in their first years, and many after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKINZ_DOMIN8 Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 No doubt many Udeze supports will be unhappy with the comparison. I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility to consider. You are obviously a subversive Taylor/Winslow supporter. You people aren't real long-time Skins fans otherwise you would know the importance of a dominant defensive line. FOR THE TRILLIONTH TIME: HOW MANY PLAYS WILL A SAFETY MAKE IN ONE GAME? 5,6, MAYBE 7??????????? :gus: :eaglesuck always have and always will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 jango......some must have missed the hypothetical part of the question. keep pressing...the crowd that believes we are riding the dl Titanic will just have to change deck chairs should we draft K2 or Taylor. ummmm...they have never made a case as to how much the defense would actually improve if we drafted one of these dl. only that in their hyper-active imaginations all creation will come to an end if we don't draft DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I love how people question how much of a real fan someone is by who they want to draft... That's not only petty, but stupid. Find a new way to put people down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JangoFett Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 Thanks for the props fansince62. It's an inherent risk to posting on these boards that people don't bother to read what's written or they otherwise lack sufficient reading comprehension skills. You are obviously a subversive Taylor/Winslow supporter. You people aren't real long-time Skins fans otherwise you would know the importance of a dominant defensive line. SKINZ_DOMIN8, I am of the draft Winslow persuasion, and I have previously posted reasons in support of this position. I also think that Taylor would be a terrific selection as well. That's very perceptive of you to suggest that we are (i) not Skins fans, (ii) are ignorant football fans generally, or (iii) both, simply because we don't think that selecting one of the d-linemen available in this year's draft pool will be the best means to assembling a dominant d-line for the franchise given: (A) the other extraordinary draft options that are available to us, and ( the possibility that none of the draftable d-linemen this year will turn into the special kind of player that makes a d-line dominant. Would selecting Udeze or Harris improve the current d-line personnel? Probably. Will these guys pan out as perennial pro bowlers? Who knows? If your draft philosophy is to select based on need (particularily in light of the historical neglect shown this crucial area by the organization), then I think you have a defensible position. Or maybe you think Udeze or Harris is the same caliber of player as Winslow and Taylor, having "a good chance to be great" as it were. I think you would then have a compelling argument to draft one of those guys provided you can support the assertion. Frankly, my view on shoring up the d-line is to take a chance on Gardener. This alternative probably is equally vulnerable to failure as drafting d-line because of personal problems and injury concerns. However, at least we have had first hand experience with the kind of dominating performances that Gardener has displayed for us. What this proposed strategy does not imply is that I think the d-line is not a vital component to our success or I am not a Skins fan. Maybe you know something that I don't or maybe your should keep your Ad Hominem bul!$*t to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Originally posted by fansince62 jango......some must have missed the hypothetical part of the question. keep pressing...the crowd that believes we are riding the dl Titanic will just have to change deck chairs should we draft K2 or Taylor. ummmm...they have never made a case as to how much the defense would actually improve if we drafted one of these dl. only that in their hyper-active imaginations all creation will come to an end if we don't draft DL. And you’ve so eloquently proven your point time and time again that drafting this wunderkind safety from Miami will shore up all the problems that we have on defense. Nevermind that he had a subpar workout and at least one scout is calling him a dud. Keep slinging that feces there buddy. We all can see who has what on their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Glory Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Originally posted by SKINZ_DOMIN8 You are obviously a subversive Taylor/Winslow supporter. You people aren't real long-time Skins fans otherwise you would know the importance of a dominant defensive line. FOR THE TRILLIONTH TIME: HOW MANY PLAYS WILL A SAFETY MAKE IN ONE GAME? 5,6, MAYBE 7??????????? :gus: :eaglesuck always have and always will. Exactly. You guys don't know the importance of a good DE. It's quite obvious.:hump: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I was throwing things at the TV when we took Lang over Trevor Price. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 If there was a player that played on the D Line that had the talent of Winslow or Taylor, then I'd say take him over Winslow or Taylor. But there isnt, there isnt even anyone close. There is no sense in forcing a pick just b/c of something you really need when there are two exceptional players sitting right in front of you that would both be a good fit with our team! There are DE's out there like Udeze that we could sign, Brackens for example. And there will be more after June 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Jones Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 It's not about the safety only making 5 or 6 tackles a game. It's about drafting a player that "could" be a perenial pro bowl player. I would rather draft one the TWO, even if it means waiting till next year to draft needed DL help. If the FO and coaching staff feel that one of them will have a major impact in the NFL and be a pro bowl player I say take him. The player will have an impact next year and for years to come. Maybe Taylor will make 5 or 6 tackles in one game. He could also intercept a pass for a score, and make a critical sack to turn the game around. Games are one and lost some times on one or two critical plays in a game. Impact players make impact plays. Take the impact player with the 5th pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Originally posted by Skins26 If there was a player that played on the D Line that had the talent of Winslow or Taylor, then I'd say take him over Winslow or Taylor. But there isnt, there isnt even anyone close. There is no sense in forcing a pick just b/c of something you really need when there are two exceptional players sitting right in front of you that would both be a good fit with our team! There are DE's out there like Udeze that we could sign, Brackens for example. And there will be more after June 1st. talent is subjective to your opinion and bias. Don’t go fooling yourself into thinking that Taylor and KW2 are playmakers while Harris, Udeze, Smith, Wilfolk, et. al. aren’t. That’s quite insulting, narrow minded as well as incorrect. Sure these players are all good in their own right but you also have to look at what would be the best for the team. Is it better for a team that has had very poor D line play to have a playmaker at TE, S or DT/DE? Which position if going to improve the team the most? Sure draft a playmaker, but draft one that plays a position of need that will help the team the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 How is a guy who set the school record for forced fumbles at USC not a playmaker and not talented? Was Taylor Freshman All-America? Harris is definitely talented. Smith has great physical gifts. Wilfork is a beast. Watson's avg is much higher per catch than Winslow BOTH years. Not just this year. Come on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Originally posted by SKINZ_DOMIN8 You are obviously a subversive Taylor/Winslow supporter. You people aren't real long-time Skins fans otherwise you would know the importance of a dominant defensive line. FOR THE TRILLIONTH TIME: HOW MANY PLAYS WILL A SAFETY MAKE IN ONE GAME? 5,6, MAYBE 7??????????? :gus: :eaglesuck always have and always will. Yo shut the hell up man! U mean to tell me u wouldn't give your right arm to have say Ronnie Lott on your team? What about Dawkins? The kid will be a monster and even if u don't agree with us, that doesn't make us idiots. U talk a lot of trash for someone who doesn't back it up. U know Art actually thinks we should go after KW2. Does that mean he's not a real long-time Skins fan who doesn't would know the importance of a dominant defensive line? U're stupid if u think so. U're even stupider for suggesting it. We have three holes on defenese: FS, DE, and DT. We won't, i repeat, won't complete the defense or find a stud player at each of those positions this year. But should we get Winslow, that would complete our offense, and make it arguable the best in the leauge. Draft Winslow, Jr. Then go after any useful June 1 cuts and finish the defense next year. Our d won't be pee-in-your-pants scary, but our offense will. And with the players we have right now, our defense will not suck. I'm 15 years old, and even i could tell you that. :hammer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Oldskool, Sure Udeze, Wilfork, and Harris are playmakers. Pretty good players too. But last I heard, Taylor can cover like Ed Reed and hit like Roy Williams and is being compared to Ronnie Lott, who is the greatest safety ever to play the game. And Winslow is considered the best TE prospect ever. While those D Linemen you mentioned are considered good. Nobody can say for sure how each of these guys are going to be in the NFL, but i'd rather take my chances with Taylor/Winslow than any of those D Linemen. Who did Udeze even play???? Who did he get sacks against??? Over there in the tough Pac-10 huh!?!?! Udeze is better than Smith, b/c he did something against Michigan, while Smith was terrible. Harris and Wilfork are both very good players. Wilfork being the better I think. And i'm not bias, I am not a Miami fan. I just know what I see. And in my opinion either Taylor or Winslow would help this team out 10 times more than any of those D Linemen you mentioned. But thats just my opinion, you can disagree or agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Skins26 Hate to break it to you, but Taylor's stock has slipped of late. He's not taking the scouting process seriously, and to me, that indicates arrogance and that he will not be taking other things seriously either. I'd almost rather have Winslow because he seems to be working hard at what is essentially an interview and test process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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