MadMonkey Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 What would you do if you were handed a speeding ticket for $216,000.00 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=15&u=/ap/20040210/ap_on_fe_st/finland_speeding_fine HELSINKI, Finland - Police gave a record $216,900 speeding ticket to a millionaire under a system in which traffic fines are linked to an offender's income. The Iltalehti tabloid reported that millionaire Jussi Salonoja zoomed through the city center last weekend in a 25 mph zone and police handed him a ticket of $216,900. It didn't say what his speed was. The fine was based on information they got directly for the inland revenue office, the Tuesday report said. Salonoja, 27, could not be reached for comment, and police declined to discuss the alleged speeding incident until it reaches the Helsinki Regional Court at a later date. Although it's the costliest ticket to date, it's not the first with a big price tag. Two years ago, Anssi Vanjoki, then executive vice president of Nokia (news - web sites)'s mobile phones division, landed a $148,000 ticket after being caught doing 46 mph in a 31 mph zone on a motorcycle. It was later lowered to about $7,500 after he showed a court that his income had dropped, but not before Finns flew into a rage over the high fine. But, after weeks of Parliament debates, discussions on TV shows and expressions of disgust in the media, Finns did nothing and the system remained. Other hefty speeding tickets have included a $71,000 one for a professional hockey player and one for $190,000 given to one of Finland's wealthiest people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Saw this on the news. I'm going to get tarred for saying this, but I don't think it's so bad. The point of a punitive fine is to discourage the offender from offending again. If a billionaire pays a $25 speeding fine, there's nothing to discourage them from repeat speeding. Imagine if the penalty were jail time. The millionaire would lose out a lot more than a guy who had no job by being locked up, right? So why should fines work differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Hell i'd be happy cause it'll mean i'm a fricking millionaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Master Jay Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Doesn't sound fair to me a ticket is a ticket and should be the same amount for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black Saw this on the news. I'm going to get tarred for saying this, but I don't think it's so bad. The point of a punitive fine is to discourage the offender from offending again. If a billionaire pays a $25 speeding fine, there's nothing to discourage them from repeat speeding. That's it, no one is saying you can't have money, they are saying don't speed or break the law. Don't do it and you won't pay for it. You wanna drive fast, sure, but you're going to have to pay for the right because the citizens whose lives your endangering pay for the roads you're driving on. Good law, it'll slow them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggmatic Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Jussi, Jussi, Jussi. What a twisted web we weave. Kiitos! Moi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMonkey Posted February 11, 2004 Author Share Posted February 11, 2004 It depends on how you look at it if it's a good thing or not, if that's the case then they will start having different sets of laws to suit the class of the offender or the income level of that person, say you have two people one makes 50k per year the other 40k their incomes are nearly the same so should the person that makes the 50k per year be required to pay a higher fine? It's a flawed system that wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of working here in the States....Thank God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by Jay Master Jay Doesn't sound fair to me a ticket is a ticket and should be the same amount for everyone. A millionaire would think twice if he had to pay a ticket that would actually mean something to him. A fixed amount would be unfair to lower income people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Originally posted by MadMonkey"slobernockered" ...if that's the case then they will start having different sets of laws to suit the class of the offender or the income level of that person No, it's just a simple percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 My last speeding ticket was almost that much, but that was because of....uh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Saw this on the news. I'm going to get tarred for saying this, but I don't think it's so bad. The point of a punitive fine is to discourage the offender from offending again. If a billionaire pays a $25 speeding fine, there's nothing to discourage them from repeat speeding. Seems to be the same logic used to determine that a person who works hard and makes $100K a year pays roughly 40% in taxes (federal & state) while a person making $20k pays no taxes, eventhough both drive on the same roads..... shop at the same stores..... eat at the same restraunts..... etc. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 It's not the same logic because taxes aren't intended to be punitive, while fines are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSchwartz Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Right, which makes the taxes slightly more unfair and this speeding ticket system much more fair. I like the idea. Makes plenty of sense. There really isn't much deterring a millionaire from speeding in this country. That's probably why athlete's are always being pulled over in this country. I can remember a Ricky Williams interview where he spoke about doing 140+ on the interestate's in texas. What did he have to lose, a few hundred bucks in a fine. That's chump change to him. However hand him a ticket with a $100,000 fine and he might think twice about going that fast again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I have to confess I look at the penalties to decide what I can get away with. I regularly speed by 15 mph. I know I won't be able to do that after my first ticket (hasn't happened yet), but I view the amount I'll pay the first time as what it costs me to save all that time over the past 12 years. Since my insurance won't change until a second offense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 This is just plain stupid. A ticket should be the same for everyone. We don't charge higher rates for power, water, etc... for the rich. If they guy was going 80 in a 25 he would lose his right to drive anyway. Even if he keeps getting speeding tickets he won't be able to drive and if he gets caught without a license he will then be in a cell with Bubba :laugh: A lot of you hate the rich because you are not rich yet. If you were you would be singing a differert tune. You can't change the law based on someones financial status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Originally posted by jbooma This is just plain stupid. A ticket should be the same for everyone. We don't charge higher rates for power, water, etc... for the rich. If they guy was going 80 in a 25 he would lose his right to drive anyway. Even if he keeps getting speeding tickets he won't be able to drive and if he gets caught without a license he will then be in a cell with Bubba :laugh: A lot of you hate the rich because you are not rich yet. If you were you would be singing a differert tune. You can't change the law based on someones financial status. OK then let's make it fair, reduce all fines to under 10 bucks. That way it doesn't really hurt anyone financially. Sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan913 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Originally posted by gbear I have to confess I look at the penalties to decide what I can get away with. I regularly speed by 15 mph. I know I won't be able to do that after my first ticket (hasn't happened yet), but I view the amount I'll pay the first time as what it costs me to save all that time over the past 12 years. Since my insurance won't change until a second offense... Gbear your insurance rate will increase with your very 1st ticket unless you have it taken off your record by going to a driving class given by the courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 NAh, I have a good driver discount that gives me one free accident or ticket without changing my rates. Atleast, that's what my insurance contract says. It's only fair since they've taken my money for 12 years (enough to buy 2 cars working on a third) without my having and accident or ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I'd be curious to see how anyone who thinks this is a good idea reconciles the notion with the concept of equal treatment under the law. No, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Originally posted by gbear NAh, I have a good driver discount that gives me one free accident or ticket without changing my rates. Atleast, that's what my insurance contract says. It's only fair since they've taken my money for 12 years (enough to buy 2 cars working on a third) without my having and accident or ticket. If you have Geico say goodbye to Mr. Insurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 Originally posted by Om I'd be curious to see how anyone who thinks this is a good idea reconciles the notion with the concept of equal treatment under the law. No, really. Sure: for everyone, no matter who, the fine for a speeding ticket equals ai(s-l) where s is actual speed l is the speed limit i is income a is a (very small) constant There, everyone gets treated equally. It's accepted, even in this country, that punitive damages exist in order to deter the offender from a repeat offense. That's why we separate them from actual damages, which compensate the victims for their losses. When large corporations with high cash flows commit a transgression, they are hit with far larger punitive damages than a mom 'n' pop store would be. That's the nature of punitive damages. Of course, there are many flaws with the Finnish system. First, I think no matter how rich you are, you hate having to pay a speeding fine. Second, if the fine were $200,000, wouldn't it benefit you to just give the policeman $10,000 and tell him to forget about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 AtB I don't have time to do this justice at all, but at some point I'd like to take it up both from philosophical as well as practical angles. Very cursorily: Philosophically -- are you comfortable apparently suggesting that it's acceptable to selectively decide which laws are okay to punish differently based upon income levels? Seems to me murder is murder, whether you're a pauper or O.J. (okay, bad example, but you get the drift). If we're going to make punitive guidelines for one kind of "crime" subject to income analysis, are we not bound to do so across the board? Practically -- traffic cop makes speeding stop; writes "ticket" that sets in motion wheels of justice, including, apparently, a review by local law enforcement -- or someone -- of your tax returns to determine your net wealth. I'm sure I don't need to point out the myriad of serious questions that concept poses. I think when it gets right down to it, I just like the idea that when an individual gets X number of tickets, it costs him his driver's license and gets his dangerous ass off the road. Everybody plays by the same rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Om, I agree that it's not cut 'n' dry, but I'm not entirely against the principle that punishments should have a practical deterrent effect on criminals. Philosophically: if jail time is involved, then the punishment is self-equalizing. The loss of freedom far outweighs almost any monetary loss you could conceive. Furthermore, it could be argued that someone who earns $1000 a day loses out much more with jail time than someone who earns $5 a day, since the former loses much more income over that period. That's why I don't think the whole system of punishment needs to be revamped, just punishments for violations/misdemeanors. Practically: yes, practically it would be completely untenable. It would require far too much government scrutiny of personal wealth/income and keeping tabs on every citizen to an unacceptable degree. It boils down to the fact that when someone speeds, he or she endangers lives every single time the speeding occurs (whether or not he's had prior tickets or no). Most people rein in on the speeding because they don't want a ticket. Very wealthy people don't have to worry about it until the fifth ticket or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 You have to love class warfare. Some of you guys are frightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Originally posted by Art You have to love class warfare. Some of you guys are frightening. I'm not looking to penalize people for being rich. I'm pointing out that it's not ridiculous to equalize the deterrent effect of a fine across individuals, the way we do across corporations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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