DM: Switzerland considers legalising COCAINE: Politicians declare 'the war on drugs has failed'

[tshile]

You’re also kinda doing the perfect is the enemy of good thing there. As I said earlier - If we were going OK and needed incremental improvement that’d be one thing, but we’re doing awful it’s getting worse not better. 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

In addition to never meeting that person that wants to legalize heroin so they could try it, I’ve never met a person that was like “I always wanted to try <whatever> but never knew how to get it” unless they were in the early 20’s. 

if people want to try drugs - they can and do.

 

You mean like kids who don't know what they doin?

 

You mention The Wire, I imagine this is before Maryland legalized weed and it was easier to steer people towards certain drugs that are safer without the similar dangers of addiction.

 

I'm not sure how many people you've had to cut off because of this, but I've done it enough I'm not with the "the number of addicts won't go up enough to matter"...it really deligitmaizes the amount of damage from one person going through that or why we really trying to end the war on drugs in the first place.  Why some are trying to treat this like a health care matter more then a law enforcement matter. 

 

I knew one car with a straight face tried to convince me he was addicted to meth when his boyfriend at the time introduced him to itz he just liked it.

 

 

 

I'm surprised at how much you are overestimating people you typically underestimate...usually I'm the optimist in these conversations...but you trying too hard to be right to hear concerns as anything other then noise to dismiss like it doesn't matter. 

 

I've heard ends justify the means before...

[tshile]

41 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

In terms of legalization of drugs, we should be able to reasonably look at cases where things have been made legal here before (alcohol, marijuana, and gambling).  In those cases, we've seen increased commercialization, increased use, and at least an apparent and corresponding increase in the number of addicts.

 

To claim somehow magically that the same thing won't happen with other drugs just isn't very credible unless you are going to suggest some things to prevent what we've seen in the past with legalization.

this is utter bull****. I haven’t claimed that it’ll magically not have issues. 
 

I haven’t outlined a single specific about any of it. 
 

you’re falling into a lot of awful debate tactics here. You’re taking a comment or idea and stretching it to an extreme.  You’re talking about age restrictions as if it’s this mystifying task we’ve never had to deal with before. You’re acting like if this idea doesn’t solve all drug addiction, it’s a bad idea. You’re claiming we can fake a very specific situation, and compare it other situations simply because addiction is involved? I know plenty of people that wanted to gamble, but didn’t because it was illegal and they didn’t trust the online markets or thought it’d get traced to them or whatever. (To be fair the illegal gambling market was full of problems so they weren’t exactly unfounded concerns). Again, still haven’t met that dude just waiting for meth to be legalized so he can give it a try. 
 

Portugal is but one example of someone doing something different. I believe all I said was they’re worth reading about. 

A lot of what you’re arguing feels like saying we shouldn’t be allowed to have cars because what the **** are we going to do to keep all the 5 year olds from driving around killing everyone and destroying everything

 

we made an age under which it’s illegal. 
sure, some times a kid drives a car. Sometimes it ends bad, sometimes no one even knew they did it. But we deal with it and don’t use it as an excuse to be afraid to allow others to drive cars. 

[Renegade7]

36 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I will say once it is in a store I think it legitimizes it. Like, when you walk in to get your thc edible you walk past the coke isle and you say to yourself “hmm.. coke, I’ll think I’ll try a line”…

 

I'd rather see mushrooms in a store then LSD and I do believe there's something to why we are seeing mushrooms right behind places that allow recreational weed, like DC.

 

I badly want to laugh off the right for folks to go Tony Montana after a long work week in a couple lines...but like has been noted it's sometimes a train that some folks jus can't get off when they start, so I'm not feelin this notion of legitimizing it knowing the ramifications can be so much worse then what else could be in that store.

 

This isn't like ending Alcohol Prohibition because some of this stuff is far harder to beat then alcohol addiction.  I can't with a straight face point to our accepting drunk driving as coming with the territory of legal alcohol to take the top off everything else.  Some of this stuff didn't exist or the same capacity before there were more widespread bans, @PeterMP bringing up Portugal's concerns over the level of decriminalization should be a warning towards this level potential next level social experient Switzerland is teasing at.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

You mean like kids who don't know what they doin?

What kids? Legalization would clearly come with age restrictions. 
 

If you think an adult being able to buy drugs at a store, instead of from a drug dealer, is going to impact the youth’s ability to access drugs, then you’re as laughably naive as my parents and all the parents in my county were 😂 you know the type - the ones that think drugs are them inner city folks’ problem, that’s why we moved out here, to get away from it 😂 

 

 

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

d rather see mushrooms in a store then LSD and I do believe there's something to why we are seeing mushrooms right behind places that allow recreational weed, like DC.

Yeah so about that, do we have a mushroom usage epidemic in DC now that it’s legal? I haven’t heard anything about it. 

[dunfer]

If drugs are ever made legal, Id want some quaaludes (wolf of wall street makes em sound fun), then id order some coke straight from the jungle to even me out and some percocets just cause they were awesome

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm surprised at how much you are overestimating people you typically underestimate...usually I'm the optimist in these conversations...but you trying too hard to be right to hear concerns as anything other then noise to dismiss like it doesn't matter. 

 

I've heard ends justify the means before...

Couple things. 
 

im not trying too hard to be right. I’m well aware im in the extreme minority, and almost no one willing to argue it is willing to change their mind. For been in hundreds of these conversations. Your focus is on shifting the addiction people to healthcare instead of prison. Bravo - Nobel position. I got no issue with it. I just think it’s 1 of many of the problems, that’s all. 
 

im just pointing out the issues with your alls arguments, and correct some of the nonsense said about mine. You’ll notice I haven’t discussed a specific plan. I got lots of ideas but I learned long ago you can’t discuss them with people who knee jerk drugs bad mkay? I get none of you will think I’m right or change your stance on this - so I’m not trying to be right (according to what you all think is right lol)
 

I also firmly believe in people’s abilities to do what they want with their bodies. I think the notion that taking a substance is in and of itself illegal, stupid. So I get there will still exist 

 

I have what others call negative/cynical, what I call realistic, views on the general populations intelligence, integrity (when it comes to preaching morals on others), and their desire to claim victim hood for everything bad that happens to them. I see a lot of people who dip on personal responsibility. 
 

No, I do not think legalizing drugs fixes drug addiction. Portugal showed their changes decreased *new* drug users but didn’t do much for existing. (At one point at least, they’ve had ups and downs and I haven’t looked recently) but I do think it’s better than what we’re doing. For all the reasons I’ve outlined. 
 

and it would be a first step in a long battle against the damage drug addiction does. 
 

and I’d prefer we face it head on instead of pretending the DARE program and the various clones of that line of thinking with drugs have done anything to make things better for us and the rest of the world. 

[Renegade7]

@tshile

 

Why do you keep making comparisons to things like sex education and car driving?

 

Sex serves a reasonable purpose in life, at minimum with respect to procreation.

 

Cars serves a reasonable purpose as well, our modern society wouldn't be the same without them and the benefits they provide.

 

There's a reason why Schedule 1 drugs are considered the most likely to abuse and with no recognized medical use...there are plenty that shouldn't be in there and there are some that defientl should. Treating their legalization all the same completely flies in the face of different they all are. 

 

Forget access some of this stuff we should fighting to eradicate from existence still.  That is not an endorsement on the way in drugs, that's more like saying the goal should be to eliminate cancer even if it never happens because of how bad it is and zero benefit it provides to society...some drugs are not even close.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, dunfer said:

If drugs are ever made legal, Id want some quaaludes (wolf of wall street makes em sound fun), then id order some coke straight from the jungle to even me out and some percocets just cause they were awesome

lol are you like 70 years old  

Get some Molly and lsd instead.

[Captain Wiggles]

12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

This isn't like ending Alcohol Prohibition because some of this stuff is far harder to beat then alcohol addiction.

 

Probably a good time to mention alcohol addiction and withdrawal are right up there with the likes of heroin. 😬

[tshile]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

Why do you keep making comparisons to things like sex education and car driving?

Because people preach abstinence (which is close to what founded the idea of the drug war) and it’s obviously a silly idea that doesn’t work 

 

And because Peter seems to think the concept of age restrictions is something we just can’t wrap our heads around for some reason 

Just now, Captain Wiggles said:

 

Probably a good time to mention alcohol addiction and withdrawal are right up there with the likes of heroin. 😬

Alcoholism is the only addiction that withdrawals can kill you. Heroin can’t even do that. 
 

idk man, the reason this topic can’t be solved is because most the people doing the solving don’t have a clue about drugs (and alcohol is a drug, even if it’s legal) 

[dunfer]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

lol are you like 70 years old  

Get some Molly and lsd instead.

those guys were millionares and had em all and loved those ludes. Id like to try em once at least with a bunch of friends

Edited December 22, 2023 by dunfer

[Renegade7]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

What kids? Legalization would clearly come with age restrictions. 
 

If you think an adult being able to buy drugs at a store, instead of from a drug dealer, is going to impact the youth’s ability to access drugs, then you’re as laughably naive as my parents and all the parents in my county were 😂 you know the type - the ones that think drugs are them inner city folks’ problem, that’s why we moved out here, to get away from it 😂 

 

And why would their need to be age restrictions, may I ask?  Different ages for different drugs, maybe?  How old should someone be to buy Crack?

 

Are you saying with a straight face to not expect more people to use drugs if they are legalized even though that's what's happening in nearly ever state that legalized weed? 

 

You are laughing off the claim like it would 15x over when no one is saying that..the goal for certain drugs should be zero users, so why legalize it if that's the goal? That's doesn't make sense.

 

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Yeah so about that, do we have a mushroom usage epidemic in DC now that it’s legal? I haven’t heard anything about it. 

 

No, and it's likely because it's not nearly addictive as some other ones I and many are not comfortable fully legalizing...are we on the same page of which ones are how addictive and thats the core of concern here?

[dunfer]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

Alcoholism is the only addiction that withdrawals can kill you. Heroin can’t even do that. 
 

fent and tranq? withdrawals arent lethal? ive watch docs that claim theyre the worst

[Renegade7]

31 minutes ago, tshile said:

Because people preach abstinence (which is close to what founded the idea of the drug war) and it’s obviously a silly idea that doesn’t work 

 

Can we both jus agree abstinence is stupid in the context of our brains being pre-wired to do it, please show me where we evolved to look for meth, a synthetic substance, the way we are naturally driven to procreate.

 

31 minutes ago, tshile said:

And because Peter seems to think the concept of age restrictions is something we just can’t wrap our heads around for some reason

 

The wise thing would be to limit Marijuana until at least 25 to allow chance for brain to fully develop...but I can't with a straight face recommend that law because of the benefits that come from it.  It got me through some of the worst depression imaginable in my late teens and early 20s until I was diagnosed bipolar.

 

Quote

Alcoholism is the only addiction that withdrawals can kill you. Heroin can’t even do that.

 

idk man, the reason this topic can’t be solved is because most the people doing the solving don’t have a clue about drugs (and alcohol is a drug, even if it’s legal)

 

Only?

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/add.13512

 

Even weed can have withdrawals symptoms...there's lots of research and debate on how dangerous withdrawal from certain legal drugs can be...stop acting like everyone is stupid they disagrees with you, even caffeine is a drug...but by many accounts heroin harder to get off of then alcohol and a lot easier to get addicted to then alcohol...

Edited December 22, 2023 by Renegade7

[Renegade7]

29 minutes ago, tshile said:

Couple things. 
 

im not trying too hard to be right. I’m well aware im in the extreme minority, and almost no one willing to argue it is willing to change their mind. For been in hundreds of these conversations. Your focus is on shifting the addiction people to healthcare instead of prison. Bravo - Nobel position. I got no issue with it. I just think it’s 1 of many of the problems, that’s all. 
 

im just pointing out the issues with your alls arguments, and correct some of the nonsense said about mine. You’ll notice I haven’t discussed a specific plan. I got lots of ideas but I learned long ago you can’t discuss them with people who knee jerk drugs bad mkay? I get none of you will think I’m right or change your stance on this - so I’m not trying to be right (according to what you all think is right lol)
 

I also firmly believe in people’s abilities to do what they want with their bodies. I think the notion that taking a substance is in and of itself illegal, stupid. So I get there will still exist 

 

I have what others call negative/cynical, what I call realistic, views on the general populations intelligence, integrity (when it comes to preaching morals on others), and their desire to claim victim hood for everything bad that happens to them. I see a lot of people who dip on personal responsibility. 
 

No, I do not think legalizing drugs fixes drug addiction. Portugal showed their changes decreased *new* drug users but didn’t do much for existing. (At one point at least, they’ve had ups and downs and I haven’t looked recently) but I do think it’s better than what we’re doing. For all the reasons I’ve outlined. 
 

and it would be a first step in a long battle against the damage drug addiction does. 
 

and I’d prefer we face it head on instead of pretending the DARE program and the various clones of that line of thinking with drugs have done anything to make things better for us and the rest of the world. 

 

This is turning into too many posts at the same time for a message board, seen these debates before.  I dint think you crazy, and fair of you to point out your position in the minority.

 

The laughing folks off part is starting to annoy me, saying certain things never happen that a simple front page of Google disproves is unlike you.

 

I'll say if you believe in spirit full legalization IA the right thing, but your at "do it", "...", ""profit"...that's where I have to pump breaks and point that missing chunk in the middle of your plan shouldn't be laughed off.

 

In regards to what people do with their bodies...that's be nice if it stayed there.  Once certain folks get to a certain level of addiction it inevitably impacts other people...that's why I can't give a blank check to letting people do whatever they want yet.

 

I'm trying to see where you coming and taking you seriously. I still disagree with you.

[Captain Wiggles]

Lol cannabis withdrawal is roughly the equivalent to sugar withdrawal. 

 

Y'all wanna really address the problems of hard drugs? Increase funding and expand drug courts. 

[tshile]

45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

And why would their need to be age restrictions, may I ask?  Different ages for different drugs, maybe?  How old should someone be to buy Crack?

 

Are you saying with a straight face to not expect more people to use drugs if they are legalized even though that's what's happening in nearly ever state that legalized weed? 

 

You are laughing off the claim like it would 15x over when no one is saying that..the goal for certain drugs should be zero users, so why legalize it if that's the goal? That's doesn't make sense.

I think with things like mushrooms, lsd, molly, dmt, et al there will be an increase in use. I think there’s probably a lot of people out there that would be willing to do those once in a while, but don’t because they don’t want to do what you have to do to get it (unless you know someone, that means ordering online and shipping to your house. Its reasonable for that to be a nonstarter for people)

 

those aren’t hurting society the way crack, meth, cocaine, alcohol and others are. Don’t get me wrong - I understand the other drugs are bad and people do get hurt and they all have their own seedy version, but by and large your average shrooms user isn’t like your average meth head. I don’t expect a lot of people to decide to go try some crack because it’s legal and you can get it like liquor at the abc store.

 

When I think of what I’ve been talking about - addiction, gangs, cartels, prison sentences, other violence, destroyed families, illegal immigration, unstable countries to our south - I think about meth, coke, crack, heroin, pills. I’m sure I’m missing something. 
 

I also think for the more “recreational use” category, we got people being harmed and even killed because there’s bunk **** floating around. A regulated market on dosage and contents (meaning not laced) would do wonders to quell deaths and other injuries, and possible end things like crime and violence related to people going way further than they intended. 
 

you can’t have a regulated market if it’s illegal and run by gangs and cartels. Look at the complications due to marijuana at the state vs federal level. 
 

This is where it really gets frustrating because there are people that die simply because the only source is an unregulated black market. almost everything else has a chain of cause and effect to work through but that’s and immediate and irrefutable part of it. 
 

[Renegade7]

@tshile

 

The fentanyl issue and it being snuck in some of these other drugs has gotten completely out of control. I actually smoke less weed then i used to in large part to limit how often i get it and where from while waiting for legalization in VA so i can walk into store like i did a couple times in Vegas and friend did for me in LA.

 

My vision is a concerted to accept drugs in general are not going anywhere and society to steer folks that do try to use them towards safer ones to focus more resources on the ones not worth the trouble.

 

Don't get me wrong, I get where your heart is at on this issue, man.  I do not trust us to get something like full legalization right in the spirit ofnyour concern...look no further then how many additives their are in cigarettes, they can't fit on the box it's so long, in context to how addictive even nicotine is.

 

We completely bungled the vape matter and blew a hole in the progress we were making to get younger generations to not deal with nicotine at all.

 

I don't trust society with some of these substances, let alone Corporate America, enough for what you are proposing. I remember when dippers was a thing, putting cigarettes in pcp, and the amount of damage that can come from trying it once.  Best believe some folks will push to increase addiction to increase profits.

 

But that is an opinion, one of many.  I'm not perfect, I could be wrong.  My gut is pretty loud on this one, though.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Renegade7

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm trying to see where you coming and taking you seriously. I still disagree with you.

That’s fair. Part of the problem is I’m conditioned to not take this seriously.
 

So part of the problem is it’s such an extreme minority supporting the idea there isn’t really well thought through models to point to. It’s not something other countries really do either. So I have my ideas, and ideas from others, and they’re not exactly well vetted or polished. 
 

For the harder drugs there should be some sort of card you get - gives you access to buy everything you need, but has some requirements. Examples would be - maybe once a month you have to check in with a counselor whose job is not to fix you but support you and check in on you, and if you decide you’re ready for help they’re be there to get you started. Maybe once a quarter you have to test for certain types of disease that plague users like you (heroin and hiv for example) so we can put a dent in the spread of disease. Maybe you have to pick up your needles and turn them back in; some metric there to encourage not leaving needles around or sharing.  Maybe twice a year you have to attend an educational session - none of which are of the lecturing type, but just more on reminding them of what it means to be the addict they are and what they need to be focused on to help themselves. 
 

but that’s the general idea. To help these people. Not fix them, but help them. And when they’re ready to try to take the next step, be there to help get that moving. 
 

For all of the drugs the “profit” should go into dealing with the problem that is drug addiction. I don’t know how you accomplish that - we’re a profit driven society. But this shouldn’t be corporations profiteering on addiction - it should be a legitimate attempt tackle a serious issues that’s seen no real meaningful improvement over the long term. 
 

I also think if you’re going to provide a legal framework you need to be harsh on those that operate outside of it. I don’t have specifics. And it’s an odd position to take because I’ve been lecturing on how the drug war enforcement of “law” hasn’t worked - but I’m curious to think if there is a functional legal path, maybe you can be harsh on the rule breakers and have more success. 
 

there’s more to it. I think most people likely have tired from me ranting and I need to go. But that’s what I can come up with on the spot, to try to explain where I’m at. 
 

I think people a lot smarter than me, people that have a lot more direct experience than me, could come up with better ideas. We have 50 states - surely we could try out some different implementations and compare results. 
 

once you move past the “omg you can’t legalize drugs” part, and you start to think what could be done if the billions that enrich gangs and cartels were part of an internal loop that doesn’t involve criminals anymore, I think there’s reason to feel optimistic there’s a strong potential to do things in a way different manner and result in better outcomes. 
 

at which point, it would be neat to be able to brainstorm what you could do with the rest of the problem that still exists. 
 

more and more society is starting to get it. People in positions of prestige (not to oversell it) are coming out and writing articles about being a highly functional, otherwise normal productive person, that uses heroin regularly and is addicted. 
 

we will get there. One day. Maybe after I’m gone, who knows. And we’re gonna cause a lot of people to die taking so long to get there  

Edited December 22, 2023 by tshile

[tshile]

26 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

The fentanyl issue and it being snuck in some of these other drugs has gotten completely out of control. I actually smoke less weed then i used to in large part to limit how often i get it and where from while waiting for legalization in VA so i can walk into store like i did a couple times in Vegas and friend did for me in LA.

Just quick on this - I realize fentanyl is all the rage with drug discussions for a few years now.  But I just want to point out - before that, and still going on, there is a real issue with how strong drugs are. 
 

you got a bunch of high school dropouts out there playing chemistry

 

Some people are dying just because dip**** mixed it too strong. 
 

and dip****s only allowed to do that, because it’s illegal and a black market. 

[LadySkinsFan]

2 hours ago, dunfer said:

If drugs are ever made legal, Id want some quaaludes (wolf of wall street makes em sound fun), then id order some coke straight from the jungle to even me out and some percocets just cause they were awesome

 

Quaaludes, Columbian Red, mushrooms, and coke before birthing daughter, so early to mid 20s. Just coke after daughter graduated high school, so mid 40s to early 50s. I'm 72.

 

Quaaludes were great, 714s. One of my GFs was hooked on Percocet and that was a bummer and caused endless problems. I don't have an addictive personality and when I wanted to quit, I did. 

[Renegade7]

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

Just quick on this - I realize fentanyl is all the rage with drug discussions for a few years now.  But I just want to point out - before that, and still going on, there is a real issue with how strong drugs are. 
 

you got a bunch of high school dropouts out there playing chemistry

 

Some people are dying just because dip**** mixed it too strong. 
 

and dip****s only allowed to do that, because it’s illegal and a black market. 

 

That's fair to point out.

 

I'm used to at least the premise of how difficult it was to OD on THC because we'd be long asleep before we could get to a point of no return.

 

The percentage levels now and coming soon to a theater near you combined with modern and future mechanisms is changing that conversation, and this is in the legal recreational realm of Marijuana, folks that claim they know what they're doing.

 

I remember last time I visited my Uncle in Myrtle Beach, was basically only peace pippin at night because he felt the stuff out now was so much stronger then when he got introduced back in the 70s.

 

That was 6 years ago, a lot has happened since then.  I'll be honest, I do have concerns Weed is potentially reaching a dog catching its tail moment right before potential national legalization that we need to gun check ourselves on now before folks start saying **** to slow it down they never used to be able to say before.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Renegade7

[Jabbyrwock]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

was basically only peace pippin at night

[Koolblue13]

If America wasn't such a ****hole in regards to health care, let alone mental health and especially drug rehabilitation, I'd be fine with it all being legal. I'm all for decriminalizing everything.

 

Until a few people with a lot of money, figure out how to monetize legalized drugs, it won't happen any way.

 

A country like Switzerland that spends tax money on education and health care can do something like this, but we're a bunch of fat idiots who worship money.

 

We can't even handle pharma like adults.