Was Replacing Kevin O'Connell with Scott Turner at OC a Mistake???

[Renegade7]

Ya know, up until this point, I've accepted every excuse and reality as to why three former offensive coaches here are now HCs in the NFL. But this 4th one has me thinking...

 

McVay was a prodigy, we all knew it, but our FO didn't have the balls or hindsight yet to fire Jay and make him interim HC before he left for the Rams job.  We had finally had back to back non-losing seasons before McVay left in 2017, which is like Christmas on back to back days in July around here, so I'm jus going to let that go, is what it is.

 

Kyle also was rising star, but after the way his father scorched earth on his way out, there was no way we could fire his dad and keep his son as HC.  It was always a package deal, my understanding was the plan was for Mike to name Kyle as his replacement when he retired going into this, again, is what it is.

 

LaFleur, look, you are lying to yourself if you say you saw the same potential in him that many saw in Sean or Kyle.  He left here after the 2013 season, he was a QB coach here before he left, and didn't get a OC job in the NFL until 2017. McVay may have saw something or jus decided to give him a chance since they worked together in Washington.  And I'm not convinced yet he's actually a good HC, most look at least decent with a QB of ARod's pedigree.

 

But that now brings us to O'Connell.  I remember the "prodigy" talk as well when he was here, a possible McVay lite, and I wasn't buying it, and neither did Rivera.  But McVay did, gave him a chance, most importantly got him a fn QB, won a super bowl, and is now a HC as well.

 

Which brings me back to my original question:

 

Was replacing Kevin O'Connell with Scott Turner at OC as mistake? 

 

This is now the 4th time in the last 10 years we've let a former offensive coach go that went on to be a head coach elsewhere, but this last one we knew he had potential and weren't in a trapped situation that lead to losing him. It was completely voluntary to look at what Kevin did here and willing replace him, it was one of the first things Rivera did when he got hired here.

 

Many people here are now saying we shouldn't judge Scott Turner too quickly, or at least until he gets a legit QB.  Well, should we and Rivera have done the same for O'Connell?

 

I say yes.

 

I'm not sure I can be convinced that Scott Turner had more potential then Kevin O'Connell, but anyone is welcome to try.  I'm not buying Scott Turner will ever be a HC in the NFL, or that he is or was a better OC then O'Connell was for us or was in LA.  Maybe having a QB and under McVay made O'Connell better then he is, and we are going to find out this coming season, so saying "Too Early" is perfectly reasonable. 

 

Still worthy of discussion...

Edited February 18, 2022 by Renegade7

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Waaaay too early to tell.  KOC's offense in 2019 was based off of Gruden and not McVay.

 

I have my doubts that McVay let KOC do as much as a normal OC would.  KOC seemed like a ok coach in 2019, but his playcalling in 2019 also just ok.

 

Maybe 2 years with McVay helped KOC grow.  If he did grow, maybe he only grew because of McVay.

 

If what your ultimately getting at is about Heinicke.  I do not think KOC would have made Heinicke play better than Turner did. 

[Renegade7]

9 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Waaaay too early to tell.  KOC's offense in 2019 was based off of Gruden and not McVay.

 

I have my doubts that McVay let KOC do as much as a normal OC would.  KOC seemed like a ok coach in 2019, but his playcalling in 2019 also just ok.

 

Maybe 2 years with McVay helped KOC grow.  If he did grow, maybe he only grew because of McVay.

 

More then fair.

 

9 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

If what your ultimately getting at is about Heinicke.  I do not think KOC would have made Heinicke play better than Turner did. 

 

Not at all. 

 

At least we have evidence of O'Connell with a quality QB now to point to as evidence in this discussion. Cam Newton was a trainwreck by 2018-2019 in Carolina while Turner was QB coach.  Yea, fun fact, Turner was never OC in Carolina, I'm not sure why it feels like I'm jus now seeing that. 

 

Rivera didn't replace Kevin with his own OC, he replaced him with his former QB coach. 😒

 

I accepted it at the time, but now, I believe it was a mistake.  Rivera replaced someone who was still growing as an OC with someone who had never been an NFL or even College OC before.  If we had something to point to to say it was worth it, that'd be one thing, but where is it, yea know???

 

 

[CjSuAvE22]

23 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

I accepted it at the time, but now, I believe it was a mistake.  Rivera replaced someone who was still growing as an OC with someone who had never been an NFL or even College OC before.  If we had something to point to to say it was worth it, that'd be one thing, but where is it, yea know???

 

 

Just one of many lame duck decisions by Ron Rivera. But to a lot of peoples credit they are right when they say hes probably the best coach this team can have, which means a lotta losing seasons and a playoff run here and there. Hes set up to lose being hired before getting a  GM in the door.

[Riggo#44]

39 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Cam Newton was a trainwreck by 2018-2019 in Carolina while Turner was QB coach.

He was also a train wreck under McDaniels in New England too.

[Burgold]

I split the middle. I don’t know that I think hiring Scott Turner was the way to go. The fact that he pulled a pretty competent offense from Heinike speaks well for him. However, I’m not convinced he can be great. 
 

on the other hand, I don’t think letting O’Connell was a mistake. He truly showed almost nothing while he was here. There wasn’t a great reason to believe that he was special. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Burgold

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

He was also a train wreck under McDaniels in New England too.

 

Exactly, has Turner ever had a QB that wasn't a turd he had to polish into a diamond?  But if we are going to use that not judge Turner too soon, why didn't we do that for Kevin?  Should we do that going forward, playing calling will only go so far without a QB that can execute it, and no playcaller is infallible, with or without a QB.

[Riggo#44]

40 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Rivera didn't replace Kevin with his own OC, he replaced him with his former QB coach.

And the Bills replaced Daboll with Dorsey. It happens. Many head coaches bring people they are familiar with--it happens all over the league. Shanahan brought Chris Foerster to SF, who got nothing out of our OL here and was pretty reviled.

 

Turner did well this year--due to the well-documented injuries, we had two legitimate weapons: Gibson and McLaurin. This offense looks a lot better if McKissic, Samuel, and Thomas at the very least stay healthy. He and Zampese got the most out of a very, very limited QB. No one worried about the deep ball. He was limited more by talent than anything else. Give him a healthy roster and a QB before making judgement.

[Renegade7]

26 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Just one of many lame duck decisions by Ron Rivera. But to a lot of peoples credit they are right when they say hes probably the best coach this team can have, which means a lotta losing seasons and a playoff run here and there. Hes set up to lose being hired before getting a  GM in the door.

 

Totally agree, and cannot forsee myself joining the Fire Rivera camp if for any reason what you jus posted here.

 

Same time, I'm gonna throw a hypothetical and tell me what you think:

 

Rivera declines the extension at the end of his contract and retires for "health reasons".  Dude had cancer his first year here, we will likely still be a dysfunctional mess above his head and pay grade to be able to fix, can anyone blame him?

 

Who replaces him in that scenario? Del Rio, who flamed out in Oakland and Jax?  Scott Turner?  We know who it won't be now though *subtly nudges in a certain general direction

 

Again, this is strictly a hypothetical, but as of right now, in that scenario, there is no clear digestible replacement in house if that happens.  I already noted why that fell through concerning Sean and Kyle, but Kevin, that was completely unforced error.

7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

. Give him a healthy roster and a QB before making judgement.

 

I get that and will. But in all fairness, We dont have a choice now.

 

My point is when Rivera was hired we did, and i now believe we choose wrongly.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Renegade7

[Riggo#44]

14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

My point is when Rivera was hired we did, and i now believe we choose wrongly.

Why, because he got a HC job? So did Mike McDaniel, I don't see anyone clamoring for him. Why did Rivera let O'Connell go? Was it personal? Philosophical? Was Rivera worried about exactly this--losing his OC in 2 years and have to replace him? People here love to undervalue continuity--they constantly want to can coaches every year, some after every game. However, when you're building a culture like Rivera has been tasked with, continuity is very important.

 

As for QBs he polished into a diamond? We won 7 games with Taylor Heinicke. While not a diamond, he made him into a very capable backup--from his sisters couch. We were inline for the playoffs in back to back years before we lost about half our 53-man roster. I am not sure you need much more evidence than that. Any OC is going to look better with Matt Stafford, Cooper Kupp, OBJ, Robert Woods. After Terry McLaurin, our next best receiver (per PFF) was DeAndre Carter--the 83rd rated receiver.

 

This is Reverse Ashburn Syndrome--a guy that left must be good because we let him go.

[TheGoodBits]

Taking Turner out of the equation for a second… (I think he’s done ok fwiw)

 

Did Rivera decide to let KOC go or did KOC simply decide he’d rather go to the Rams and Rivera honored that? I seem to recall there was like a week when Rivera was bringing in new staff that they weren’t sure whether KOC was staying. 

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Why, because he got a HC job? So did Mike McDaniel, I don't see anyone clamoring for him. Why did Rivera let O'Connell go? Was it personal? Philosophical? Was Rivera worried about exactly this--losing his OC in 2 years and have to replace him? People here love to undervalue continuity--they constantly want to can coaches every year, some after every game. However, when you're building a culture like Rivera has been tasked with, continuity is very important.

 

No, Kevin at least had experience as an OC before Rivera was hired and had better results as an OC somewhere before being hired as Head Coach.  Scott was never an OC before Rivera decided to make him one.  If you want to talk about continuity, why not keep Kevin given he had been in Washington with many of the players before Rivera was hired?

 

7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

As for QBs he polished into a diamond? We won 7 games with Taylor Heinicke. While not a diamond, he made him into a very capable backup--from his sisters couch. We were inline for the playoffs in back to back years before we lost about half our 53-man roster. I am not sure you need much more evidence than that. Any OC is going to look better with Matt Stafford, Cooper Kupp, OBJ, Robert Woods. After Terry McLaurin, our next best receiver (per PFF) was DeAndre Carter--the 83rd rated receiver.

 

Yea, many of those games on the four game win streak was the defense finally not being apocalypticly bad and Taylor doing enough to not screw up a finally competent and improved defense. 

 

Eventually that fell apart, especially Taylor, and we lost 4 games in a row knocking us out of playoff contention.  This is context of the original 4 game losing streak earlier in the season that put us in a hole in the first place.

 

You really want to give Scott credit for all that "success"? Have fun with that.

 

7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

This is Reverse Ashburn Syndrome--a guy that left must be good because we let him go.

 

No, every one of the four coaches I've mentioned in the OP leaving eventually had better success elsewhere and we are still stuck in neutral wondering if our current OC is the right guy for the job.  It's frustrating at best.

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Ya know, up until this point, I've accepted every excuse and reality as to why three former offensive coaches here are now HCs in the NFL. But this 4th one has me thinking...

 

McVay was a prodigy, we all knew it, but our FO didn't have the balls or hindsight yet to fire Jay and make him interim HC before he left for the Rams job.  We had finally had back to back non-losing seasons before McVay left in 2017, which is like Christmas on back to back days in July around here, so I'm jus going to let that go, is what it is.

 

Kyle also was rising star, but after the way his father scorched earth on his way out, there was no way we could fire his dad and keep his son as HC.  It was always a package deal, my understanding was the plan was for Mike to name Kyle as his replacement when he retired going into this, again, is what it is.

 

LaFleur, look, you are lying to yourself if you say you saw the same potential in him that many saw in Sean or Kyle.  He left here after the 2013 season, he was a QB coach here before he left, and didn't get a OC job in the NFL until 2017. McVay may have saw something or jus decided to give him a chance since they worked together in Washington.  And I'm not convinced yet he's actually a good HC, most look at least decent with a QB of ARod's pedigree.

 

But that now brings us to O'Connell.  I remember the "prodigy" talk as well when he was here, a possible McVay lite, and I wasn't buying it, and neither did Rivera.  But McVay did, gave him a chance, most importantly got him a fn QB, won a super bowl, and is now a HC as well.

 

Which brings me back to my original question:

 

Was replacing Kevin O'Connell with Scott Turner at OC as mistake? 

 

This is now the 4th time in the last 10 years we've let a former offensive coach go that went on to be a head coach elsewhere, but this last one we knew he had potential and weren't in a trapped situation that lead to losing him. It was completely voluntary to look at what Kevin did here and willing replace him, it was one of the first things Rivera did when he got hired here.

 

Many people here are now saying we shouldn't judge Scott Turner too quickly, or at least until he gets a legit QB.  Well, should we and Rivera have done the same for O'Connell?

 

I say yes.

 

I'm not sure I can be convinced that Scott Turner had more potential then Kevin O'Connell, but anyone is welcome to try.  I'm not buying Scott Turner will ever be a HC in the NFL, or that he is or was a better OC then O'Connell was for us or was in LA.  Maybe having a QB and under McVay made O'Connell better then he is, and we are going to find out this coming season, so saying "Too Early" is perfectly reasonable. 

 

Still worthy of discussion...

If he’s that great, he still would’ve left for a head coaching job.

 

Didn’t matter who was OC the last 2 years; no one could overcome the mediocre to bad qbs we had.

[Renegade7]

15 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If he’s that great, he still would’ve left for a head coaching job.

 

Didn’t matter who was OC the last 2 years; no one could overcome the mediocre to bad qbs we had.

 

This would be getting deep into hypothetical territory, because if Rivera doesn't do better then the QB carousel in 2020 and Taylor Heinicke Experience in 2021, what does Kevin's resume look like going into 2022?

 

My point, and I maintain this, is Kevin had OC experience when Rivera was hired and was replaced with someone who didn't.  Kevin then went on to show demonstrable improvement as an OC elsewhere, enough so to get a HC job.  There is more evidence to support Kevin being and eventually becoming a better OC then Scott, it is hindsight and im admitting to that, and that's the point, I believe we guessed wrong.

28 minutes ago, TheGoodBits said:

Taking Turner out of the equation for a second… (I think he’s done ok fwiw)

 

Did Rivera decide to let KOC go or did KOC simply decide he’d rather go to the Rams and Rivera honored that? I seem to recall there was like a week when Rivera was bringing in new staff that they weren’t sure whether KOC was staying. 

 

Fair question, but based on this, Rivera gave Kevin every chance he could to convince him to be OC instead of Scott, and Rivera decided on picking Scott instead:

 

Quote

Rivera has interviewed O'Connell several times since being hired, but hasn't retained him for the OC position. He also interviewed his former QB Coach Scott Turner last Friday. There are a lot of rumors floating around that Turner will be the choice at OC when the dust settles.

 

https://www.hogshaven.com/2020/1/7/21051330/redskins-kevin-ooconnelpermission-to-speak-to-other-teams-scott-turner-likely-choice-to-replace-him

Edited February 18, 2022 by Renegade7

[Riggo#44]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Eventually that fell apart, especially Taylor, and we lost 4 games in a row knocking us out of playoff contention.  This is context of the original 4 game losing streak earlier in the season that put us in a hole in the first place.

 

You really want to give Scott credit for all that "success"? Have fun with that.

No you're definitely right, it was all Scott Turner's fault and not the fact that we lost half our team to injuries and COVID. ****in' Scott Turner! Why did he give everyone COVID?!

 

13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

No, every one of the four coaches I've mentioned in the OP leaving eventually had better success elsewhere and we are still stuck in neutral wondering if our current OC is the right guy for the job.  It's frustrating at best.

And everyone whined about Shanahan, saying he only got his job because of his daddy. He was also a petulant asshole when he was here. He also went on to two different OC jobs before getting a HC job in SF--four years after he left here.  People complained about McVay too--I bet many of them are the same ones crying about letting him go now too. This hindsight-GMing are some of the most annoying, over-reactionary posts on this board--especially with coaches because we have a small fraction of the information available.

 

Give Turner a chance, before he becomes a HC in a couple of years and we cry about him too.

[Warhead36]

I wont evaluate Turner until we have a legitimate NFL caliber QB.

[Renegade7]

@Riggo#44 cmon man. I don't remember anyone complaining about Kyle in 2012 when he helped revolutionize the zone read option at the NFL level. Belicheck is also a flaming asshole, but has 6 super bowl rings, so what's your point there and why does it matter?

 

There may have been complaints about McVay when he was here, like every OC, but not nearly as much as many of the other OCs we've had lately.  When he left, there was universal agreement that high wealth talent was walking out the door, not jus here, but the rest of the NFL saw that as well. 

 

Did anyone say we should fire Jay and keep McVay? Not that I remember, but saying people complained about him is not the same as what you are portraying about him in comparison to the other coaches in discussion.  He clearly is and was better then all of them and now the youngest HC with a super bowl ring. Give that man his flowers, dude is only 3 years older then me, it's just incredible what he's accomplished.

14 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I wont evaluate Turner until we have a legitimate NFL caliber QB.

 

Just want to let you know that I've seen you say this repeatedly lately (and i get it) and a big reason for this OP. 

 

So here are your flowers, it's your fault 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Renegade7

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Totally agree, and cannot forsee myself joining the Fire Rivera camp if for any reason what you jus posted here.

 

Same time, I'm gonna throw a hypothetical and tell me what you think:

 

Rivera declines the extension at the end of his contract and retires for "health reasons".  Dude had cancer his first year here, we will likely still be a dysfunctional mess above his head and pay grade to be able to fix, can anyone blame him?

 

Who replaces him in that scenario? Del Rio, who flamed out in Oakland and Jax?  Scott Turner?  We know who it won't be now though *subtly nudges in a certain general direction

 

Again, this is strictly a hypothetical, but as of right now, in that scenario, there is no clear digestible replacement in house if that happens.  I already noted why that fell through concerning Sean and Kyle, but Kevin, that was completely unforced error.

 

I get that and will. But in all fairness, We dont have a choice now.

 

My point is when Rivera was hired we did, and i now believe we choose wrongly.

Ron won’t make it to year 5. Year 4, max.

 

If your scenario happens; Dan will do what always do when he actually hires,  a big name coach.

 

Marty- Big name retread

Spurrier - Big name college coach 

Gibbs - Big name retread 

Zorn - No name Vinny hire

Shanny - Big name retread

Jay - Little name Bruce hire

Ron - Big name retread 

 

When Dan makes the hire; he goes for the big name and usually someone already known.

[Riggo#44]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I don't remember anyone complaining about Kyle in 2012 when he helped revolutionize the zone read option at the NFL level.

Are you serious? Go back to 2010, 2011, and 2013. Read those posts.

 

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Did anyone say we should fire Jay and keep McVay? Not that I remember, but saying people complained about him is not the same as what you are portraying about him in comparison to the other coaches in discussion.  He clearly is and was better then all of them and now the youngest HC with a super bowl ring. Give that man his flowers, dude is only 3 years older then me, it's just incredible what he's accomplished.

And no one here thought he was ready at the time. He's amazing coach--I said a while back (you know, when 80% of the game day posts were crying about firing Ron less than 2 full years into his stint) that there are really only a handful of real difference makers in the coaching ranks, and McVay is one of them. I think he's a top-3 coach in the league. I'd take him over Belichick--but people still complained about his play calling and the usual thoughtless key board mashing when the staff doesn't call the play our experts on here think they should. The same way people complain about Turner right now. I am certainly not saying Turner is the next McVay, but give him a chance.

4 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Ron won’t make it to year 5. Year 4, max.

He won't get less than Gruden did.

[NickyJ]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

At least we have evidence of O'Connell with a quality QB now to point to as evidence in this discussion. Cam Newton was a trainwreck by 2018-2019 in Carolina while Turner was QB coach.  Yea, fun fact, Turner was never OC in Carolina, I'm not sure why it feels like I'm jus now seeing that. 

You are blaming Scott Turner for Cam Newton's post-injury declne. You are congratulating Kevin O'Connell for Matt Stafford being the same QB he was for 10 years in Detroit.

 

Kevin O'Connell and Scott Turner both had absolutely nothing in their resumes when the decision was made, and Kevin O'Connell still has nothing tangible in his resume after holding McVay's clipboard in LA. Scott Turner has an NFC East title made of UDFA and peg leg QBs. I'm not terribly in love with Turner, but at this moment, he's shown more to me than Kevin O'Connell.

Edited February 18, 2022 by NickyJ

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

You are blaming Scott Turner for Cam Newton's post-injury declne. You are congratulating Kevin O'Connell for Matt Stafford being the same QB he was for 10 years in Detroit.

 

Kevin O'Connell and Scott Turner both had absolutely nothing in their resumes when the decision was made, and Kevin O'Connell still has nothing tangible in his resume after holding McVay's clipboard in LA. Scott Turner has an NFC East title made of UDFA and peg leg QBs. I'm not terribly in love with Turner, but at this moment, he's shown more to me than Kevin O'Connell.

He did get 2 good games out of Haskins...

[Renegade7]

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Are you serious? Go back to 2010, 2011, and 2013. Read those posts.

 

Reread my post, I'm talking about 2012.  Of course people second guessed him prior to that, I know I did, but I like others accepted that the NFL caught up to the 2012 offense and Griffin wasn't the future soon after that.  A lot of the people mad at Kyle in 2013 were Griffin apologists who hadn't yet accepted that Griffin was a bust.

 

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

And no one here thought he was ready at the time. He's amazing coach--I said a while back (you know, when 80% of the game day posts were crying about firing Ron less than 2 full years into his stint) that there are really only a handful of real difference makers in the coaching ranks, and McVay is one of them. I think he's a top-3 coach in the league. I'd take him over Belichick--but people still complained about his play calling and the usual thoughtless key board mashing when the staff doesn't call the play our experts on here think they should. The same way people complain about Turner right now. I am certainly not saying Turner is the next McVay, but give him a chance.

 

Debatable, especially consideing the Rams made him the youngest ever head coach, so someone did think he was ready, even if it wasnt us. And that is a helluva take picking Sean over BB, but I can see why you'd say that.

 

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

He won't get less than Gruden did.

 

Couldn't agree more, it'd be Rivera's call if he's here for less time then Jay, not Snyder's.

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

You are blaming Scott Turner for Cam Newton's post-injury declne. You are congratulating Kevin O'Connell for Matt Stafford being the same QB he was for 10 years in Detroit.

 

No am I not, the point I was making and elsewhere is Scott has never had a good QB, not that it was his fault what happened to Cam in Carolina.  If I have to edit my previous post to clarify that I will, but I want to emphasize that's not what I said or meant.

 

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Kevin O'Connell and Scott Turner both had absolutely nothing in their resumes when the decision was made, and Kevin O'Connell still has nothing tangible in his resume after holding McVay's clipboard in LA. Scott Turner has an NFC East title made of UDFA and peg leg QBs. I'm not terribly in love with Turner, but at this moment, he's shown more to me than Kevin O'Connell.

 

How can you say this after Kevin jus won the Super Bowl?

[Riggo#44]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

How can you say this after Kevin jus won the Super Bowl?

Was it KOC or McVay?

 

Again, much easier to succeed when you have a borderline HOF QB and three very good receivers...but, yeah, lets compare those apples to turnips.

[NickyJ]

6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

How can you say this after Kevin jus won the Super Bowl?

If holding a clipboard while the head coach orchestrates the offense made someone a viable head coach, there would be a LOT more slam dunk coaching hires instead of Lovie Smith retreads.

[Riggo#44]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Reread my post, I'm talking about 2012.

Ok, fine, one out of four years. My point still stands--they complained of nepotism, and now those same people are doing a 180 and whining about letting him go--even though it took him four more years after he left here. This is just more hindsight whining.