The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[HTTRDynasty]

Just reading up a bit on Maye and came across this article: https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bucs/2023/08/02/drake-maye-nfl-draft-clyde-christensen-unc-football/

 

It's weird because I'm encouraged after reading it, but also a little disappointed.

• Disappointed because Maye has been working with a known QB guru in Clyde Christensen, but he's still so sloppy with his footwork and mechanics.  We like to say that can be cleaned up in the NFL, but it's still just a projection at this point.  If he doesn't improve here, that will be the #1 reason he doesn't succeed in the league IMO.
• Encouraged because it's clear Maye realizes his footwork/mechanics are one of his main issues, notably his happy feet under pressure and his tendency to drift toward his target when it's completely unnecessary.  But clearly he's been working to clean that up - I do think he improved from Year 1 to Year 2, but he still has a long way to go... though he's still young so I'm not overly concerned with his development. 
• I just wish I saw greater improvement given he was working with such a knowledgeable QB guru - though I will say it's unclear exactly how much time Maye spent working with Christenson during the season/offseason as it's not like Christenson was a QB coach on staff, just a "volunteer analyst".
• One other point is that there's really only so much an NFL staff can do to clean this up once he's drafted given league rules on how much time coaches can work with players in the offseason (and even during the season).  He's going to need his own QB coach he works with in the offseason, similar to what Josh Allen, Jalen Hurts, etc. have done.  I wonder if Christensen would be willing to do that for him - he'd be a logical choice.

Quote

 

“He has coached the best,” Maye said, “so just trying to pick up whatever I can from him.”

 

Christensen has plenty to offer. In Tampa, he worked with Tom Brady and helped Jameis Winston lead the league in passing. His Colts tenure included time as Peyton Manning’s offensive coordinator and Andrew Luck’s position coach.

 

Those experiences have become study guides for Maye. He has pored over some of Manning’s pregame notes to see how he got ready for a start and analyzed the footwork of Manning and Brady.

 

“I think sometimes I get a little antsy back in the pocket — I may get my feet different places,” Maye told the Tampa Bay Times at last week’s ACC Kickoff in Charlotte, N.C. “The main thing I saw from Tom and Peyton and those guys (was) how consistent they are with their footwork and their throwing motion. No matter if the defensive lineman was here or pushing them there, they got back to the same spot and everything looked the same.”

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Est.1974 said:

I find this ‘historic haul’ a bit over played. I mean going from #2 to #1 has never been done before I guess.

 

Thing is, Bears either 100% want Caleb or they don’t. If we were picking #1 he would not have a trade price. The not for sale sign would be out.

 

Bears are clearly open to offers….

 

If I didn't hear during the season from a Bears insider that they are done with Fields and every insider type now that I can recall saying Fields is as good as gone and they are taking Caleb, I might feel differently.   But heck they aren't even trying to do what the Cardinals did years ago which is leak that they are dead serious about riding with Josh Rosen and they are 50-50 about going with Kyler.  Not a lot of pretending going on with the Bears behind the scenes.

 

 

[Est.1974]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

And if we have no QB, then what we could get for the 2nd pick is also borderline meaningless because you're not going to have long term success in the NFL without a franchise QB. Cool, we'll probably get another couple of starters and maybe a couple more special teams guys with mid round picks we get in a trade down. So what? We're still likely not going to be a contender until we get our QB.

Bears traded out of #1 last year, they seem well set for the long term if they play this draft well.

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

He got Richardson right last year and the Cardinals trading down but not for either player he guessed and he missed on the rest

 

And here was 2022

 

 

 

Wasn't talking about him as a mock drafter.  But like you, i too agree he's good at getting inside information.  Tough to guess a whole mock draft based on leaks.  The only ones who seem to try are JLC and Breer -- and they do it late, you got to do it closer to the draft of course not this early.

Edited February 11 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Bears traded out of #1 last year, they seem well set for the long term if they play this draft well.

 

It was absolute pure unfiltered blind luck that got the Bears into this situation, not some sort of master strategy. Nobody thought the Panthers would be as bad as they were this past season. The Bears probably assumed that they'd be picking up a mid first round pick that they could use on a role player, not #1 overall. 

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Just reading up a bit on Maye and came across this article: https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bucs/2023/08/02/drake-maye-nfl-draft-clyde-christensen-unc-football/

 

It's weird because I'm encouraged after reading it, but also a little disappointed.

• Disappointed because Maye has been working with a known QB guru in Clyde Christensen, but he's still so sloppy with his footwork and mechanics.  We like to say that can be cleaned up in the NFL, but it's still just a projection at this point.  If he doesn't improve here, that will be the #1 reason he doesn't succeed in the league IMO.
• Encouraged because it's clear Maye realizes his footwork/mechanics are one of his main issues, notably his happy feet under pressure and his tendency to drift toward his target when it's completely unnecessary.  But clearly he's been working to clean that up - I do think he improved from Year 1 to Year 2, but he still has a long way to go... though he's still young so I'm not overly concerned with his development. 
• I just wish I saw greater improvement given he was working with such a knowledgeable QB guru - though I will say it's unclear exactly how much time Maye spent working with Christenson during the season/offseason as it's not like Christenson was a QB coach on staff, just a "volunteer analyst".
• One other point is that there's really only so much an NFL staff can do to clean this up once he's drafted given league rules on how much time coaches can work with players in the offseason (and even during the season).  He's going to need his own QB coach he works with in the offseason, similar to what Josh Allen, Jalen Hurts, etc. have done.  I wonder if Christensen would be willing to do that for him - he'd be a logical choice.

 

 

 

He had a different coordinator last year of course before being in Longo's offense for consecutive seasons before that.  He lost IMO his only good WR. 

 

And he was under pressure a lot. I think that lent to some bad habits, he drifted away from pressure, dudes weren't open and he tried to make some superman off platform throws -- and at times he succeeded but he's no Caleb on that front.   And his mechanics on the move are hit and miss.

 

When you watch Drake with some protection when he can settle in the pocket -- his mechanics look clean to me.   His shoulder-feet are aligned, he steps into his throws, etc.

Edited February 11 by Skinsinparadise

[ThatNFLChick]

46 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Just reading up a bit on Maye and came across this article: https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bucs/2023/08/02/drake-maye-nfl-draft-clyde-christensen-unc-football/

 

It's weird because I'm encouraged after reading it, but also a little disappointed.

• Disappointed because Maye has been working with a known QB guru in Clyde Christensen, but he's still so sloppy with his footwork and mechanics.  We like to say that can be cleaned up in the NFL, but it's still just a projection at this point.  If he doesn't improve here, that will be the #1 reason he doesn't succeed in the league IMO.
• Encouraged because it's clear Maye realizes his footwork/mechanics are one of his main issues, notably his happy feet under pressure and his tendency to drift toward his target when it's completely unnecessary.  But clearly he's been working to clean that up - I do think he improved from Year 1 to Year 2, but he still has a long way to go... though he's still young so I'm not overly concerned with his development. 
• I just wish I saw greater improvement given he was working with such a knowledgeable QB guru - though I will say it's unclear exactly how much time Maye spent working with Christenson during the season/offseason as it's not like Christenson was a QB coach on staff, just a "volunteer analyst".
• One other point is that there's really only so much an NFL staff can do to clean this up once he's drafted given league rules on how much time coaches can work with players in the offseason (and even during the season).  He's going to need his own QB coach he works with in the offseason, similar to what Josh Allen, Jalen Hurts, etc. have done.  I wonder if Christensen would be willing to do that for him - he'd be a logical choice.

 

 

Orlovsky's biggest knock on him has been he's "mechanically sloppy."

 

Whether that gets cleaned up depends on the individual. The Falcons took Ridder whose mechanics were bad and led to inaccuracies because they thought he could clean it up, he committed to it, but he just never improved throughout the season. Jordan Love was terrible mechanically and improved a lot (he still isn't great, throws off his back foot too much but he did get a lot better in the second half of the season) 

 

 

 

Edited February 11 by ThatNFLChick

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

He had a different coordinator last year of course before being in Longo's offense for consecutive seasons before that.  He lost IMO his only good WR. 

 

And he was under pressure a lot. I think that lent to some bad habits, he drifted away from pressure, dudes weren't open and he tried to make some superman off platform throws -- and at times he succeeded but he's no Caleb on that front.   And his mechanics on the move are hit and miss.

 

When you watch Drake with some protection when he can settle in the pocket -- his mechanics look clean to me.   His shoulder-feet are aligned, he steps into his throws, etc.

I agree. And I’m a big fan of Maye in general. I do worry about his footwork/mechanics under pressure though and how it may translate. I understand he had a bad offensive line, which exacerbated the issue.
 

But the NFL rarely has consistently clean pockets (as Hoge mentions in the video below), so he’s going to have to learn how to keep a wide base, feel pressure and manipulate the pocket without drifting if he wants to be a top QB in this league. And I hope we don’t throw him out there until he proves he can do it consistently in practice. Throwing him out there with bad mechanics before he’s ready is a surefire way to ruin your franchise QB. 
 

This is one reason I like to comp Maye as a bigger, more athletic Jordan Love as opposed to the Herbert comp you typically see. Love had a lot of the same fundamental issues Maye has (happy feet under pressure, somewhat elongated wind-up in his throwing motion and questionable decision-making at times). Love also had to learn a new offensive system in his final year, leading to a dip in production vs. his prior year, similar to Maye.  I do think Maye is a much better prospect overall, but I think ideally he’d similarly sit for part of the season to help clean up his issues (he obviously can’t sit for 3 years like Love)… but the problem is I don’t think he’ll be afforded that time given the lack of good options we currently have at QB (unlike what Love and Mahomes had in front of them).

 

 

[FlyBigBeard]

1 hour ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

Hard pass! No thank you. Take Maye 

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Orlovsky's biggest knock on him has been he's "mechanically sloppy."

 

Whether that gets cleaned up depends on the individual. The Falcons took Ridder whose mechanics were bad and led to inaccuracies because they thought he could clean it up, he committed to it, but he just never improved throughout the season. Jordan Love was terrible mechanically and improved a lot (he still isn't great, throws off his back foot too much but he did get a lot better in the second half of the season) 

Ha, yeah, just used the Love comparison in my response above before I saw this. 
 

I do think Maye will be given a much longer leash than Ridder to improve, which definitely helps. And Maye can rely on his legs and off-platform creativity to a much greater extent than Ridder can as he gets his footwork/mechanics up to speed, which also helps.
 

For most QBs, I think the greatest improvement in fundamentals typically happens in the offseason after their rookie year or in the next offseason. I believe that was the case for Allen, Hurts, etc. They just need the time to fully focus on it and rep it over and over.

 

If that’s a prospect’s #1 issue, I wouldn’t let it dissuade me from choosing a QB who is otherwise outstanding unless I was fairly sure it was an issue the guy was unlikely to overcome. 

[Est.1974]

41 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It was absolute pure unfiltered blind luck that got the Bears into this situation, not some sort of master strategy. Nobody thought the Panthers would be as bad as they were this past season. The Bears probably assumed that they'd be picking up a mid first round pick that they could use on a role player, not #1 overall. 

Nah, you’re just dressing that up to fit your opinion. They were always getting a good pick from the Panthers 2023 season with a rookie QB. Stroud and the Texans being the outlier really.

 

Happy to disagree on the specifics. I know we need a long term solution at QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I agree. And I’m a big fan of Maye in general. I do worry about his footwork/mechanics under pressure though and how it may translate. I understand he had a bad offensive line, which exacerbated the issue.
 

But the NFL rarely has consistently clean pockets (as Hoge mentions in the video below), so he’s going to have to learn how to keep a wide base, feel pressure and manipulate the pocket without drifting if he wants to be a top QB in this league. And I hope we don’t throw him out there until he proves he can do it consistently in practice. Throwing him out there with bad mechanics before he’s ready is a surefire way to ruin your franchise QB. 
 

This is one reason I like to comp Maye as a bigger, more athletic Jordan Love as opposed to the Herbert comp you typically see. Love had a lot of the same fundamental issues Maye has (happy feet under pressure, somewhat elongated wind-up in his throwing motion and questionable decision-making at times). Love also had to learn a new offensive system in his final year, leading to a dip in production vs. his prior year, similar to Maye.  I do think Maye is a much better prospect overall, but I think ideally he’d similarly sit for part of the season to help clean up his issues (he obviously can’t sit for 3 years like Love)… but the problem is I don’t think he’ll be afforded that time given the lack of good options we currently have at QB (unlike what Love and Mahomes had in front of them).

 

 

 

If Drake needs time, I don't have an issue with Howell starting.  While i am very doubtful Howell is a franchise QB.  He works hard and has some talent.  While I would hate it if we just rode with Howell as the solution, i don't hate Howell at all as a temporary solution while grooming a young QB.  Having said that, I suspect even with his current mechanical issues, Maye would play better right away than Howell.

Edited February 11 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Drake needs time, I don't have an issue with Howell starting.  While i am very doubtful Howell is a franchise QB.  He works hard and has some talent.  While I would hate it if we just rode with Howell as the solution, i don't hate Howell at all as a temporary solution while grooming a young QB.  Having said that, I suspect even with his current mechanics issues, Maye would play better right away than Howell.

#2 pick has to start right away doesn’t he ?

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Orlovsky's biggest knock on him has been he's "mechanically sloppy."

 

Whether that gets cleaned up depends on the individual. The Falcons took Ridder whose mechanics were bad and led to inaccuracies because they thought he could clean it up, he committed to it, but he just never improved throughout the season. Jordan Love was terrible mechanically and improved a lot (he still isn't great, throws off his back foot too much but he did get a lot better in the second half of the season) 

 

 

I spent a lot of time on Ridder.    The issues with Ridder extended well beyond mechanics.   He has IMHO below average arm talent.  Great leader and great dude.  But as a passer he had no super powers.  The hope was high intangibles would translate where he'd exceeed expectations.

Edited February 11 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Nah, you’re just dressing that up to fit your opinion. They were always getting a good pick from the Panthers 2023 season with a rookie QB. Stroud and the Texans being the outlier really.

 

Happy to disagree on the specifics. I know we need a long term solution at QB.

 

So is it your assertion that the Bears plan was to trade with the Panthers, believing secretly that they'd actually be getting the #1 overall pick in 2024 and would then be able to get Caleb Williams and jettison Justin Fields, solving their QB issues?

 

You realize how ludicrous that is, right?

 

It was luck, nothing more. There's no chance the Bears believed they'd be getting the #1 overall pick with that trade and would be able to replace Fields with it. They hoped that Fields could evolve into their franchise QB (otherwise they would have taken Stroud or Young #1) so they decided to stockpile picks in order to build around him.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

#2 pick has to start right away doesn’t he ?

 

Probably.  And? 

[ThatNFLChick]

19 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Ha, yeah, just used the Love comparison in my response above before I saw this. 
 

I do think Maye will be given a much longer leash than Ridder to improve, which definitely helps. And Maye can rely on his legs and off-platform creativity to a much greater extent than Ridder can as he gets his footwork/mechanics up to speed, which also helps.
 

For most QBs, I think the greatest improvement in fundamentals typically happens in the offseason after their rookie year or in the next offseason. I believe that was the case for Allen, Hurts, etc. They just need the time to fully focus on it and rep it over and over.

 

If that’s a prospect’s #1 issue, I wouldn’t let it dissuade me from choosing a QB who is otherwise outstanding unless I was fairly sure it was an issue the guy was unlikely to overcome. 

 

The scary thing is its always a toss up and thats why interviews and individual workouts matter so much.

 

You can have someone who works really hard night and day at it like Josh Allen or you can have something like Justin Fields or a Desmond Ridder who worked hard at it and still couldn't clean it up. Ideally I do think it takes at least 2 seasons to clean up mechanics issues (Love sitting helped him, Allen took 2+ seasons, Mahomes sitting helped him, etc) so the Falcons really didn't give Ridder a lot of time. 

 

I don't know that if we drafted Maye he could sit behind Howell though. Howell always had mechanics issues (I thought they were really glaring even during Howell's pro day)

 

His dropback at his pro day was maybe the laziest I had ever seen

 

 

Edited February 11 by ThatNFLChick

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

It’s not that I don’t like Maye, what I’m unsure on is whether he is really worth the #2 pick. I don’t see special but that doesn’t mean he won’t be an excellent pro QB.

 

 

Give or take 99% scouts-personnel guys quoted not only think he's a great get but many think he'd be #1 in most drafts.  Much of that was posted here.  Daniels also with a lot of hype.  you always get outlier takes on all these guys.  Heck i recall reading a scout leak that Burrow is a one season wonder, had great weapons and just average arm talent so is he really all that?  You always get some of that including this draft even Caleb has his critics. 

 

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

I

 

What I want is for the FO to target the best at all times. That is Caleb. If we can’t get him away from the Bears then I want absolute value from that #2 pick.

 

We don't know that they think that.  More on point, I am not buying the Bears are selling the pick.  I put much more stock in the private reporters than the public posturing stuff.  And all the private takes from Bears reporters and national insiders have been they are going with Caleb.  

 

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

 

This isn’t about short cuts. Harris has used that narrative. If Maye is that good maybe we get offered 3 first rounders ? We should be in for the long haul here.
 

 

Teams typically don't trade away their #1 pick.  So we can fantasize that the Bears will or more likely live in reality. 

 

The rest of your point as to if Drake Maye is that great lets get a haul for him.  The short cut point to me feels like what you are proposing.  Harris point is there are short cuts to mediocrity.   This team being chicken to shoot for great and settle for OK and occasional good would be trading away the chance at a franchise GB.

 

I got no doubt trading down or trading for future picks will get us faster to 9-8.  The problem I have with it is it ensures we are more likely stuck at that speed. 

 

In short, there is more risk for shooting for a franchise QB early.  No doubt.  But why do teams do it?  It can change a franchise for 10-15 years if you got it right.  We've been in QB purgatory forever.  There is not a bone in my body that likes even a little to mitigate risk and settle for more years of QB purgatory.  Enough is enough.  I am sick of it.

 

 

Edited February 11 by Skinsinparadise

[HTTRDynasty]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Drake needs time, I don't have an issue with Howell starting.  While i am very doubtful Howell is a franchise QB.  He works hard and has some talent.  While I would hate it if we just rode with Howell as the solution, i don't hate Howell at all as a temporary solution while grooming a young QB.  Having said that, I suspect even with his current mechanical issues, Maye would play better right away than Howell.

 

I agree.  I just hope we don't put Maye out there before he's ready and let him develop bad habits that become harder and harder to correct the more live reps he takes forming those bad habits.  We may have success in the short term, but I'd be wary about what that does for his long-term development.

 

15 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

The scary thing is its always a toss up and thats why interviews and individual workouts matter so much.

 

You can have someone who works really hard night and day at it like Josh Allen or you can have something like Justin Fields or a Desmond Ridder who worked hard at it and still couldn't clean it up. Ideally I do think it takes at least 2 seasons to clean up mechanics issues (Love sitting helped him, Allen took 2+ seasons, Mahomes sitting helped him, etc) so the Falcons really didn't give Ridder a lot of time. 

 

I don't know that if we drafted Maye he could sit behind Howell though. Howell always had mechanics issues (I thought they were really glaring even during Howell's pro day)

 

His dropback at his pro day was maybe the laziest I had ever seen

 

 

 

Agree - not sure what their main QB staff is teaching down there in UNC, lol.  And I'm fine sitting Maye behind Howell - probably not the nicest thing to say, but I wouldn't care much about ruining Howell's development at that point (I think we may have already done so anyway).

 

Ideally, Maye can work with Tom House in the offseason.  The guy who Brady, Brees, Luck, Dak, Hurts, etc. all worked with and swear by.  That would give me a high level of confidence in him eventually fixing the issues.  Though it's not just a one-offseason thing... you have to work at it every day.

[Est.1974]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Probably.  And? 

You said if Drake Maye needed time you don’t have an issue with Howell starting. Doesn’t make mush sense that given the push to take him at #2.

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Teams typically don't trade away their #1 pick.  So we can fantasize that the Bears will or more likely live in reality. 

Bears traded it away in the last draft didn’t they ?

[Est.1974]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The rest of your point as to if Drake Maye is that great lets get a haul for him.  The short cut point to me feels like what you are proposing.

It’s not. If another team thinks he’s great, and we don’t, you would bail out.
 

If we think he’s great, take him.

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I got no doubt trading down or trading for future picks will get us faster to 9-8.  The problem I have with it is it ensures we are more likely stuck at that speed. 

Just sitting at #2 and taking the wrong guy at QB might get you to 9-8 quicker. And more often.

 

You don’t know that unless you are convinced Maye is going to be great.

[Warhead36]

If you take the wrong guy at #2 you try again in ~3 years or so. But you have to get that QB into your building ASAP. 

 

We will draft Maye and he'll start day one because he's by far the best QB we'll have and it'll be evident he'll be a future star by like Week 9 if not a bit inconsistent at times.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

It’s not. If another team thinks he’s great, and we don’t, you would bail out.
 

If we think he’s great, take him.

 

Just sitting at #2 and taking the wrong guy at QB might get you to 9-8 quicker. And more often.

 

You don’t know that unless you are convinced Maye is going to be great.

 

Is there some specific reason you think this FO won't think Maye is a great prospect? I think you're coming at this whole thing from your bias of not liking him yourself.

 

Also, can we please quantify this? We're using vague words like "great", etc. What specific grade would you need on Maye in order to take him at #2? Or, maybe not even Maye specifically. Any QB prospect. Out of 100, what grade deserves #2 overall?

[The Consigliere]

20 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Don’t really get the massive negative hate on Fields. Clearly improved year on year and we have recruited a staff skilled in developing a young QB. Fields is what, 24 ? and a 3 year vet already. 
 

Caleb is an elite prospect and the Bears are almost obliged to take him…
 

The amount of drooling over Maye in particular is somewhat embarrassing..😂

He didn't.

Fields QBR:

2021 26.4

2022: 56.3

2021: 46.1 after getting DJ Moore, a true #1.  

 

He was basically an abomination in '21, league average in '22, and bottom quartile again in '23 after getting DJ Moore and a better defense. He got worse, exactly when people expected him to be better. Btw, I'm not even a hater, I was absolutely outraged when we went full idiot in '21, and didn't even try to trade up for the guy (or Mac Jones) and instead took an experimental linebacker prospect a full 30 picks before the next LB went off the board and he was and is a better prospect and player than Jamin Davis but that's another ****fest for another day. Drafted Fields all over the place in dynasty (he's actually been valuable there because of the running), and rated him 1B to Lawrence in '21, way above the rest of the class, including the ridiculous choices made in front of him, but let's be straight, he's sucked in the NFL in 2 of his 3 seasons. Absolutely sucked. He's not remotely worth trading for, considering the asking price AND the contract he'll get. 

 

 

[Warhead36]

I can't see a quality personnel guy like GMAP hating Maye as a prospect. He may not be in love with him but by all counts he's absolutely deserving of being the #2 overall pick, especially for us since we have nothing at that position except the previous regime's 5th round pick that led the league in sacks and interceptions.