The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, Command The 414 said:

Well as a fan of this franchise I’d love to have a Jared Goff clone as QB

 

Goff to me is an elevated Tua. Neither have elite traits but Goff is smart. You can win with them but they're not going to win the game for you if that makes sense. Both need a very good team around them to be successful but Goff doesn't need quite as much and can run a system and adapt to a system better. 

[Command The 414]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think they can win with him because their organizational culture is so strong. You got an elite weapon at QB and a franchise that can draft and develop talent as well as anyone.

 

Keep your window open and keep taking shots and hope one year everything breaks through for you.

 

Remember people said Young and Elway couldn't win either. Eventually they did.

But Young & Elway were truly pass 1st and run 2nd when they had too… plus Elway and Reeves couldn’t get along, to be honest it was Shanahan and Elway were the Brady/Bill Belichick 1.0… great for each other… Lamar isn’t anything throwing wise in the Elway Young company imho

Edited January 29 by Command The 414

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Command The 414 said:

But Young & Elway were truly pass 1st and run 2nd when they had too… plus Elway and Reeves couldn’t get along, to be honest it was Shanahan and Elway were the Brady/Bill Belichick 1.0… get for each other… Lamar isn’t anything throwing wise in the Elway Young company imho

Agreed. But they're committed to him now and there are worse places to be than having Lamar Jackson at QB, John Harbaugh at HC, and a tremendous organizational culture with strong FO and draft/developmental skills.

 

Just gotta keep trying.

[Command The 414]

1 minute ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Goff to me is an elevated Tua. Neither have elite traits but Goff is smart. You can win with them but they're not going to win the game for you if that makes sense. Both need a very good team around them to be successful but Goff doesn't need quite as much and can run a system and adapt to a system better. 

Why is the narrative that you have to have elite traits to be called a very good QB… that’s a trend that needs to stop… ppl love to throw that tag around as if it’s Bible… it’s not… Goff is easily a better QB then ppl give him credit for, just my opinion 

[Ball Security]

14 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Goff gets a lot of hate but he's a top 10 QB easily.

I don’t know. We’ll see how he looks next year without a Ben Johnson offense.

[profusion]

9 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Lol I don't think anyone actually drafts QBs that way 😂

 

Also as good as Goff has been this season, and I think he's been underrated, I don't think there is a single team saying "please find me the next Jared Goff"

 

Of course not! If it were, I'd be more gainfully employed in an NFL scouting organization.

Edited January 29 by profusion

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, Command The 414 said:

Why is the narrative that you have to have elite traits to be called a very good QB… that’s a trend that needs to stop… ppl love to throw that tag around as if it’s Bible… it’s not… Goff is easily a better QB then ppl give him credit for, just my opinion 

 

I said Goff is a very good QB and you can win with him. But we are not going to act like this Detroit team doesn't have 3 1st rounders on the offensive line, a 1st round RB, a stud TE, etc. 

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I don’t know. We’ll see how he looks next year without a Ben Johnson offense.

Are there 10 QBs in the league right now legitimately better than Goff?

 

NFC East: None. Hurts and Dak are comparable.

NFC North: None. Cousins is comparable.

NFC West: Stafford. Purdy is comparable.

NFC South: None

AFC East: Allen. Tua is comparable.

AFC North: Burrow and Jackson.

AFC West: Mahomes and Herbert.

AFC South: Stroud. Lawrence is comparable.

 

Seven QBs undoubtedly better. Six that are kinda on the same tier. So that puts Goff as anywhere from 8th-14th. Personally I'd take him over Dak and Tua for sure. The rest its iffy.

 

But yeah he does benefit a ton from that OL and the talent around him. And not having Johnson could hurt him as well. He's benefitted from playing for not one but two top notch offensive minds(Johnson and McVay).

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Are there 10 QBs in the league right now legitimately better than Goff?

 

NFC East: None. Hurts and Dak are comparable.

NFC North: None. Cousins is comparable.

NFC West: Stafford. Purdy is comparable.

NFC South: None

AFC East: Allen. Tua is comparable.

AFC North: Burrow and Jackson.

AFC West: Mahomes and Herbert.

AFC South: Stroud. Lawrence is comparable.

 

Seven QBs undoubtedly better. Six that are kinda on the same tier. So that puts Goff as anywhere from 8th-14th. Personally I'd take him over Dak and Tua for sure. The rest its iffy.

 

But yeah he does benefit a ton from that OL and the talent around him. And not having Johnson could hurt him as well. He's benefitted from playing for not one but two top notch offensive minds(Johnson and McVay).

 

You'd take him over Dak? I know Dak choked in the playoffs but after the season Dak had with very little run game? I don't know about that one...

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The thing is, Maye is also a tremendous athlete. Its not like hes some complete stiff in the pocket. 

His forty is supposedly around the lower limit for WR's and RB's and it's at the very high end of most TE's, if accurate (4.65, since it isn't laser timed, I would imagine its probably around 4.70). Kelce earned a 90th percentile speed score for TE's with a 4.66. Howell ran a 4.73 last year. So Maye is a touch faster it seems, and maybe more than that, and we already knew Howell was and is quick and an effective scrambler. He's not Tom Brady back there. Trying to think of analogy, I wonder if pre injury Montana makes sense. Maybe Steve Young. But Young was just faster (4.55 apparently), Mahomes is a 4.80, Josh Allen 4.76, so that probably tells you what you need to know. He isn't Lamar or Vick or RGIII or Daniels (4.33-4.44 zone), and he's not Young (4.55), and he's not as slow as Mahomes. He's basically a 2nd tier runner, who should be a consistently good scrambler, like Howell could/would be too. Not elite, but definitely a weapon in the tool box, and a + asset. 

[skinsfan66]

Lamar did not have his A game Yesterday, but Flowers and stupid penalties were the biggest reason they lost and Mahomes put them in a hole early. Lamar puts fear in defenses the whole time you watch him you feel he can bring them come back. That D that Baltimore has is another reason, they get the ball back.  Goff just wilted the second half when they got a little pressure on him. The RBs, TEs,WRs,OL carried them in the first half.  There is no compare in the draft for Lamar, his power running and improved passing make teams play to stop him.  

[Command The 414]

7 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

I said Goff is a very good QB and you can win with him. But we are not going to act like this Detroit team doesn't have 3 1st rounders on the offensive line, a 1st round RB, a stud TE, etc. 

agreed but that’s another narrative that needs to stop being said the way it does… QB’s need good WR’s (but mind you St Brown and Reynolds’s dropped several passes yesterday in crucial situations in the 2nd half) and WR’s need good QB’s… it’s like hand to glove… you need both 

 

[Ball Security]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Are there 10 QBs in the league right now legitimately better than Goff?

 

NFC East: None. Hurts and Dak are comparable.

NFC North: None. Cousins is comparable.

NFC West: Stafford. Purdy is comparable.

NFC South: None

AFC East: Allen. Tua is comparable.

AFC North: Burrow and Jackson.

AFC West: Mahomes and Herbert.

AFC South: Stroud. Lawrence is comparable.

 

Seven QBs undoubtedly better. Six that are kinda on the same tier. So that puts Goff as anywhere from 8th-14th. Personally I'd take him over Dak and Tua for sure. The rest its iffy.

 

But yeah he does benefit a ton from that OL and the talent around him. And not having Johnson could hurt him as well. He's benefitted from playing for not one but two top notch offensive minds(Johnson and McVay).

I think you just answered yourself. You can’t say he’s easily top 10 when you have all those guys he’s comparable with. If we’re talking 2024, you’d have to add Rodgers to that list.

[NickyJ]

12 minutes ago, Command The 414 said:

Why is the narrative that you have to have elite traits to be called a very good QB… that’s a trend that needs to stop… ppl love to throw that tag around as if it’s Bible… it’s not… Goff is easily a better QB then ppl give him credit for, just my opinion 

Elite traits are what people roughly call "the ability to carry the team". The Josh Allens, Lamars, Mahomes, Burrows, and ARod in his prime are examples of QBs who can literally do the job themselves with off-play creativity. Brady somehow managed to do it just by willing the team onward without appearing to be very mobile when plays broke down. Goff has never struck me as that type, and neither has Tua. Once the pocket collapses, most plays are effectively over for them.

[ThatNFLChick]

3 minutes ago, Command The 414 said:

agreed but that’s another narrative that needs to stop being said the way it does… QB’s need good WR’s (but mind you St Brown and Reynolds’s dropped several passes yesterday in crucial situations in the 2nd half) and WR’s need good QB’s… it’s like hand to glove… you need both 

 

 

I agree that you need both for sure. But when you watch Lions games do you feel like Goff is ever the best omayer on the field? I like him and maybe it doesn't matter because I rarely felt like Purdy was the best player on the field when the 49ers played and they're in the Super Bowl anyway. I just think some QBs are more dependent on the system and pieces around them than others.

[The Consigliere]

12 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Not in the playoffs. All of Jimmy G's stats come from the 49ers with Shanahan. Here's how they've done prior to tonight:

 

Then Purdy put up a 20/31(64.5%) for 267 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int, 2 sacks (9 yards), 5 rushes for 48 yards. (These stats aren't in the above totals yet)

 

Jimmy G may have been fine in the regular season. But he's averaging worse stats so far in his post-season games than Purdy. There's a clear difference showing Purdy is simply a better QB.

Some people are soft selling him. Reasonable to still be a little skeptical, after he had two back to back turd/uninspiring performances in victory, and had a spotty stretch in season but even w/that, the deeper level analytics #'s love the guy. He's inside the top 5-10 in almost every category you want this past season. He hasn't locked down anything long term yet in terms of greatness, or goodness, but the early returns are very, very positive. He's been very good. Definitely better than Jimmy G, who was also quite good in '19 and '21. How much is system, how much is player? I'm not sure, but none of those guys were loved by the deeper analytical stats the way Purdy has been. So far so good for him, just not the type of guy you want in a rain or snow storm. 

 

[skinsfan66]

24 minutes ago, Command The 414 said:

Totally agree, I work in Baltimore City and am totally surrounded by Ravens fans… and even they have been saying that the Ravens will not will the SB w/Lamar as the QB for the exact reason you stated… many of them didn’t want them to resign him… but here in a few short weeks he will be named MVP of the league when he only threw for 24TD’s ) 5 of which were against the Fins the 2nd to last game… and ESPN and other outlets claim insensitivity toward Lamar, when people say he’s not a throwing quarterback

As long as Mahomes is on the other side, Lamar not going to get a Ring. Is the way I see it, that D was fired up and he still made the plays. Lamar can beat anybody else. 

[ThatNFLChick]

This is inexcusable 

 

 

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I wouldn't hate having a Lamar Jackson as my QB, but we'd be battling history. QBs that are that reliant on their mobility to open up the rest of their game just don't have that much sustained success and tend to struggle big time in the playoffs against good Ds/coaches that can take a lot of that away.

 

I wanna win Super Bowls and typically Super Bowls are won by primarily passing QBs, although having mobility to create is a great bonus(see Mahomes but also guys like Rodgers and Wilson).

I tend to think this is small sample size issue, and its early, Zay fumble, and penalty, they did an admirable job coping with Dobbins and Andrews injuries all year, but those things do matter, and they went away from the run game. It was a terrible performance, but they do happen sometimes. The famous Broncos pratfall in '95 against the Jags, Montana's wtf?!?! performance against the Vikes '87 that gifted us a super bowl beyond belief, they happen. The alarming thing is they have happened A LOT to him. I am not willing to have big takeaways yet. I tend to think it was coaching performance, some bad luck more than anything, but we'll see. They resigned him last summer, plenty to see how they cope with it. Dobbins leaves via FA though, and they need a better RB than what they got in house. 

[Command The 414]

15 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

I agree that you need both for sure. But when you watch Lions games do you feel like Goff is ever the best omayer on the field? 

No I haven’t,  but I also don’t think you need to be the best player on the field either…. How many times have you watched a game where a player was the best player that day, no matter his position but the team lost… I guess I’m old school where football is a team sport and it’s all ABOUT winning, and imo you can win with a very good QB like Jared Goff… 

Edited January 29 by Command The 414

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Except Howell couldn't hit any deep balls laat season 

 

Really?

 

Here are two 52 yards throws:

 

1. https://www.commanders.com/video/can-t-miss-play-sam-howell-flashes-his-cannon-on-52-yard-bomb-to-mclaurin

2. From the year before:

 

Edited January 29 by zCommander

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, woodpecker said:

And Elway lost several Super Bowls, before finally winning a couple late in his career on the back of a good defense and running game. You can go all the way back to Fran Tarkenton if you want, running quarterbacks win a lot of games just not the Super Bowl.

I don't really think this is meaningful. Joe Montana had legs until the Giants destroyed his back. Steve Young won a Super Bowl, Thesimann won a super bowl, and his legs were a crucial bit (chasing down and knocking down the AJ Duhe deflection), Elway got that key first down to lock in his first trophy with that running, spinning first, McNair missed his by 1 foot, Ben Roth won 2, Russell won 1, nearly 2, I don't think running QB's winning or not is a thing, I think its a product of historical rarity (running QBs), and only recently becoming a common trait. We'll find out soon enough though and Mahomes scrambling ability definitely played a role in won of his rings anyway. 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, ntotoro said:

 

That doesn't change the fact that a dual-threat QB (which is really just legs first/arms second) has never won a SB. They get figured out when the regular season is over. Lamar was inaccurate as hell yesterday, regardless the playcalling. Why? Because that's what he is. Saying "Well, only one QB can win the Super Bowl every year, so that doesn't mean the others are worthless" doesn't change how the game changes when you're moving on in the post-season.

 

Russel Wilson would like a word. 

 

 

1 hour ago, ntotoro said:

 

That's exactly what changes as you progress in the post-season. Take out his legs (figuratively) and dare him to beat you otherwise. They've paid him a ton of money now and have to accept he is what he is while trying to be thrifty elsewhere.

I assume the Ravens are content with the return on investment (ROI) with Jackson. Being economical in certain aspects with an MVP QB is par for the course. Having Jackson as your QB in one of the most competitive sports virtually guarantees a 70-75% win rate, and considering the myriad variables involved in securing a victory in the NFL that’s unreal. 

 

Hes the Peyton Manning of the regular season. Let’s see if the chips fall his way and his team can pull out a SB one of these years. 
 

1 hour ago, Ghost of said:

But Purdy and Mahomes can both run and move. Arguably, if Purdy wasn't hurt last year, this is the same matchup we'd have.  Also, the difference is that some Qbs come up short but have great games while doing so and the difference is just the defenses, special teams, bad coaching.  Although Lamar wasn't awful yesterday the lesson I'd take is:

 

1) You need to be really good from the pocket and have ability to make drive-sustaining/back-breaking runs. 

2) You also need to use your mobility to look downfield.

 

I don't think you need to be "elite" in Lamar's particular ability to run, shift, and mostly avoid mega-hits.

 

All of the QBs we're looking at can move, that's not the issue. What we want is someone who can do #1 really well when the times call for it because that's what will set them apart from the guy who is more "average" at dissecting defenses or as a passer but is "great" at running.

Ravens got away from their true identity on offense and passed the ball too much. The play caller appeared to panic when hit the mouth by two early scores from the Chiefs offense. 
 

Zay Flowers fumbled at the goal line. 

 

Lamar could’ve been better. 

Edited January 29 by wit33

[ntotoro]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Russel Wilson would like a word. 

 

He's still in the category of guys who could throw from the pocket and had athleticism, not necessarily someone whose legs were the primary weapon. He just happens to have lost most of... pretty much everything. 

[Command The 414]

36 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Are there 10 QBs in the league right now legitimately better than Goff?

 

NFC East: None. Hurts and Dak are comparable.

NFC North: None. Cousins is comparable.

NFC West: Stafford. Purdy is comparable.

NFC South: None

AFC East: Allen. Tua is comparable.

AFC North: Burrow and Jackson.

AFC West: Mahomes and Herbert.

AFC South: Stroud. Lawrence is comparable.

 

Seven QBs undoubtedly better. Six that are kinda on the same tier. So that puts Goff as anywhere from 8th-14th. Personally I'd take him over Dak and Tua for sure. The rest its iffy.

 

But yeah he does benefit a ton from that OL and the talent around him. And not having Johnson could hurt him as well. He's benefitted from playing for not one but two top notch offensive minds(Johnson and McVay).

I can easily agree w/this assessment….