The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Conn said:

I don’t really get what you’re saying here. Howell does all of those things and we don’t know if he’ll grow out of it, that’s a projection just as much as the guys you’re talking about. You’re talking as if Howell has already grown out of those habits. We haven’t seen that yet. And Howell improving is a very possible outcome, I’m just saying that you’re giving Howell credit for growth that we haven’t seen yet. You’re double-counting his potential because you’re more comfortable with him, when the prospects also have potential (higher, according to most people) and the ability to grow. So until we actually see Howell grow, you’re just assuming it’s inevitable. 

No I'm saying that he gets slack for the attempts on the things like TDs and yards but they should go into context like sacks and interceptions. If he were not doing his TDs and yards (these guys are not) then he would not have lasted this long. Some people in this fan base do not want to admit it because we are a battered fan base but Sam Howell is having a really good year, sacks and Interceptions included.

 

Even 13 interceptions. 13 interceptions is not a lot. That used to be a goal for a season. Then interceptions went down for a while when the rules changed, but now defenses are finding holes and new ways to attack offenses and you see QBs around the league with interceptions up.

 - Josh Allen has 14 Ints in 13 games up from 14 in 16 last year

 - Trevor Lawrence has 10 Ints in 13 games up from 7 in 17 games last year

 - Mahones has 11 in 13 games up from 12 in 17 last year 

 - Jared Goff has 10 in 13 games this year up from 7 in 17 last year

 - Tua has 11 in 13 games up from 8 in 13 last year. 

 

This year, the league is on pase for 425 interceptions total 

Last year there were 418, an increase in 7 interceptions.

 

2021 - 440

2020 - 395

2019 - 410

2018 - 419

2017 - 430

2016 - 415

2015 - 436

2014 - 450

2013 - 502

2012 - 468

2011 - 506

2010 - 511

2009 - 525

 

This is not just a Sam Howell thing. Its a league-wide trend. These passing numbers 

 

Then you add to it that 

 1) most of his interceptions came in two games (the Bills game and Giants 2)

 2) Most of his interceptions came when he was trying to play captain comeback. Not great but something that is more correctable than just him throwing into double coverage on a typical third down. 

[mac8887]

1 hour ago, skinsmania123 said:

What are you talking about. He is a first-year starter.  He is a rookie by any comparison standard.  And if you go through the history of the league of first year starters in the NFL at QB, who went on to be quite good, I think you would be surprised, at how poorly to average they played their first year starting. Our defense has been putrid this year. Our play calling on offense because of EB, has been so predictable, the defenses only need to crowd the middle, and blitz.  If you haven't noticed, guys have been having a real difficult time breaking free from the coverages and getting open.  Is that scheme or is it on our receivers? Their ability to get YAC even if they do get the ball, well placed, and in stride has not been great.  Our O line is ineffective at consistently setting blocks and completing their assignments.  Now what does this lead to? A QB holding the ball too long.  A QB running for his life. A QB not having enough time to make the proper reads. And people talk about his inability to get the ball out, but if guys are not getting separation, which they have struggled with all year, i.e. Dotson, who, even though I like,  has been a drop machine in a few games, along with Brown and even Terry has dropped a few.  With our defense, which is a putrid pile of steaming garbage, there is little room for error. Our Offense is more often than not playing from behind.   

 

With all that said, I do trust the GM to get the right guy in there at QB. If he does not want to roll with Howell so be it. But this roster is so low level, with holes and upgrades needs all over it.  I think you start building a roster. And you keep Howell for another year.   

The drop machines that you talk about rarely get the ball on the numbers or in stride. A lot of those drops came on throws to the lower part of the backside hip, no excuse to the receiver but those were throws 5 yards in front of th los. That is not good enough. And I don't like eb for the shot gun runs on 3rd and 4th and 1 but I do like that he likes to throw the ball. You say it's bad scheming, but I haven't heard anyone in the media say that. And even if it's been bad it's not consistently bad, but I'll tell you what has been consistently bad and that is our qb play the last 5 out of 6 games. Maybe the receivers are covered, good qbs will throw into single coverage putting the ball where only his guys can get it at least giving his guys a chance, or at worst throw it away. Sam though, throws into double or triple coverage, or holds the ball and takes big loss drive killing sacks. I've watched every game this year and watched replays. Yes Sam has had some good games, but not good enough to win against good teams, but here recently he stinks. He has regressed. Yes I get the line is bad but there are so many times I've seen the line hold up well enough and not enough good comes out of it when it does. I liked Sam a lot early this year. So much so I was wishing we were the redwolves. But he is not the guy. 

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[skinsmania123]

17 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

The drop machines that you talk about rarely get the ball on the numbers or in stride. A lot of those drops came on throws to the lower part of the backside hip, no excuse to the receiver but those were throws 5 yards in front of th los. That is not good enough. And I don't like eb for the shot gun runs on 3rd and 4th and 1 but I do like that he likes to throw the ball. You say it's bad scheming, but I haven't heard anyone in the media say that. And even if it's been bad it's not consistently bad, but I'll tell you what has been consistently bad and that is our qb play the last 5 out of 6 games. Maybe the receivers are covered, good qbs will throw into single coverage putting the ball where only his guys can get it at least giving his guys a chance, or at worst throw it away. Sam though, throws into double or triple coverage, or holds the ball and takes big loss drive killing sacks. I've watched every game this year and watched replays. Yes Sam has had some good games, but not good enough to win against good teams, but here recently he stinks. He has regressed. Yes I get the line is bad but there are so many times I've seen the line hold up well enough and not enough good comes out of it when it does. I liked Sam a lot early this year. So much so I was wishing we were the redwolves. But he is not the guy. 

Clearly the FO needs to make the decision on Howell going forward. I think he has a lot of positives - super strong arm, can make all the NFL throws.  We knew there would have to be adjustments because he essentially redshirted his entire first year.  I have watched a lot of the replays and what you are calling regression in the last 3 games is IMO DC's figuring out how to handle our OL, by crowding the middle and rushing, forcing Howell to throw to what I saw as well covered receivers. Go back and look at the scores of the games.  Yes, week 11, 12 and 13 he played poorly.  But if you take the whole season in its totality, until the last 3 games he is someone you can probably build around.  He needs better coaching to work out his weaknesses. He needs a QB coach. Even Mahomes has one. We simply do not have an accurate, or proper evaluation of Howell. He could be anything. That is my biggest takeaway. He could be anything.  Look at his performances in both Eagles games, Denver, Atlanta, even against the Seahawks; he played well.    His ball placement has been really good in a number of instances. Do you remember all the contested **** Taylor Heinike. noodle arm, used to throw that Terry would jump up and get? Any this year to him, from Howell he's dropped them. It is there.  Same with Dotson.  I just do not see our receivers getting separation this year. I have no idea if it is scheme, maybe I am using the wrong word. Maybe the coverage is better. Or maybe he is being forced to throw before they come out of their breaks. What I do know is that since Chicago, DC's have a recipe to go by. I like the Redwolves name too btw.  

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Are you suggesting a GM shouldn't listen to their scouts?

 

Didn't you say YOUR scouts? Are you a GM and have your own scouts?

[CapsSkins]

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Didn't you say YOUR scouts? Are you a GM and have your own scouts?

 

In the hypothetical where I placed myself in the role of GM and had to face the decision being debated, yes.

 

What, exactly, are you taking issue with? Are you one of those people who gets pedantic about people referring to the team as "we"?

[mac8887]

4 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

Clearly the FO needs to make the decision on Howell going forward. I think he has a lot of positives - super strong arm, can make all the NFL throws.  We knew there would have to be adjustments because he essentially redshirted his entire first year.  I have watched a lot of the replays and what you are calling regression in the last 3 games is IMO DC's figuring out how to handle our OL, by crowding the middle and rushing, forcing Howell to throw to what I saw as well covered receivers. Go back and look at the scores of the games.  Yes, week 11, 12 and 13 he played poorly.  But if you take the whole season in its totality, until the last 3 games he is someone you can probably build around.  He needs better coaching to work out his weaknesses. He needs a QB coach. Even Mahomes has one. We simply do not have an accurate, or proper evaluation of Howell. He could be anything. That is my biggest takeaway. He could be anything.  Look at his performances in both Eagles games, Denver, Atlanta, even against the Seahawks; he played well.    His ball placement has been really good in a number of instances. Do you remember all the contested **** Taylor Heinike. noodle arm, used to throw that Terry would jump up and get? Any this year to him, from Howell he's dropped them. It is there.  Same with Dotson.  I just do not see our receivers getting separation this year. I have no idea if it is scheme, maybe I am using the wrong word. Maybe the coverage is better. Or maybe he is being forced to throw before they come out of their breaks. What I do know is that since Chicago, DC's have a recipe to go by. I like the Redwolves name too btw.  

I remember taylor. I didn't want to settle for him either. Sam might turn out to be good, but he also might have peaked his 2nd to last year at unc. Your right we don't know what we have with him, but we do know that tommy devito got his number. If Sam can even be as good as kirk, that still shouldn't be good enough. They are calling the top of this qb class one of the best ever. If we don't take our shot now then when? Maybe he will play good enough that we aren't in position to get one of the top 3 qbs, if he does then great, get some o line help and run it back with him. But if we continue to lose and have the chance to get one without trading up you gotta pull the trigger. Remember how fun that 2012 season was. To have a qb that was elite at one facet of the game makes such a huge difference. They say williams is elite at improvising. Daniels has elite speed. Look at some of his runs, he runs away from lbs and dbs. And if maye is a taller Howell than he is better than Howell. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

54 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

You say it's bad scheming, but I haven't heard anyone in the media say that.

I’m totally in the middle on Sam.  I can see both sides of the argument- building team around him and drafting a QB in round 1.  So this isn’t coming from a place of allegiance to Sam on my end.

If the scheme was even remotely good, there would be a weekly indictment with plenty of bad tape as evidence that Sam is the culprit.  
 

Your analysis of Sam reads like it’s coming from a guy whose mind is already made up, and confirms what he already thinks, when watching on Sundays.  If you’ve been scrubbing the all-22 and have plenty of evidence to support all the negatives you allege are primarily on Sam, please feel free to share it.

 

 

[mac8887]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m totally in the middle on Sam.  I can see both sides of the argument- building team around him and drafting a QB in round 1.  So this isn’t coming from a place of allegiance to Sam on my end.

If the scheme was even remotely good, there would be a weekly indictment with plenty of bad tape as evidence that Sam is the culprit.  
 

Your analysis of Sam reads like it’s coming from a guy whose mind is already made up, and confirms what he already thinks, when watching on Sundays.  If you’ve been scrubbing the all-22 and have plenty of evidence to support all the negatives you allege are primarily on Sam, please feel free to share it.

 

 

I have already made my mind up. If he wins enough games to keep us out of position to draft one of the top 3 qbs then good, he deserves another year, but if he doesn't, then how can you not take one of the top 3 qbs. Name one part of Sam's game that is elite, or even has a chance of becoming elite. Daniels has elite speed, c.williams is elite at improvising, and maye has elite prototypical size with a more powerful arm and just as good speed and maneuverability in the pocket as Sam if not more so. Sam has proven no more than any of these guys and these guys will be on the cheap for 5 years to Sam's 2. 

[skinsmania123]

6 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I remember taylor. I didn't want to settle for him either. Sam might turn out to be good, but he also might have peaked his 2nd to last year at unc. Your right we don't know what we have with him, but we do know that tommy devito got his number. If Sam can even be as good as kirk, that still shouldn't be good enough. They are calling the top of this qb class one of the best ever. If we don't take our shot now then when? Maybe he will play good enough that we aren't in position to get one of the top 3 qbs, if he does then great, get some o line help and run it back with him. But if we continue to lose and have the chance to get one without trading up you gotta pull the trigger. Remember how fun that 2012 season was. To have a qb that was elite at one facet of the game makes such a huge difference. They say williams is elite at improvising. Daniels has elite speed. Look at some of his runs, he runs away from lbs and dbs. And if maye is a taller Howell than he is better than Howell. 

 

You might be right. The point is we do not know who he can be.  I also thought to myself even though he is level-headed, a calm dude, this has to be wearing on him, week in week out with the pounding he has endured. I would like to see him come back fresh and play some solid football, but selfishly I want us to lose out for a better draft position. We have so many needs. One thing that I read about Howell was that during his 3rd year at NC he did not have the weapons he used to have, because they were drafted into the NFL, so he actually had to run for close 900 yards with 11 TDs.  One surprising tidbit was Dyami Brown who used to be his go to guy at NC, has actually not helped him this year, The timing between these two has been a little off. A number of throws I thought Brown would haul in, he either dropped, or missed, but for the most part, their production together pales in comparison to their time together in NC.   It just seems to me that regardless of who is at QB in NY they have our number.  And similarly, we always play the Eagles fairly tight.   Clearly if the GM thinks you grab one of those 3 top QB prospects, that is what they are going to do. Regardless I think Howell will have a decent year with the right coaching and some weapons. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I have already made my mind up. If he wins enough games to keep us out of position to draft one of the top 3 qbs then good, he deserves another year, but if he doesn't, then how can you not take one of the top 3 qbs. Name one part of Sam's game that is elite, or even has a chance of becoming elite. Daniels has elite speed, c.williams is elite at improvising, and maye has elite prototypical size with a more powerful arm and just as good speed and maneuverability in the pocket as Sam if not more so. Sam has proven no more than any of these guys and these guys will be on the cheap for 5 years to Sam's 2. 

So what you are saying is that you have no evidence to support your very strong opinions?

 

[mac8887]

1 minute ago, skinsmania123 said:

You might be right. The point is we do not know who he can be.  I also thought to myself even though he is level-headed, a calm dude, this has to be wearing on him, week in week out with the pounding he has endured. I would like to see him come back fresh and play some solid football, but selfishly I want us to lose out for a better draft position. We have so many needs. One thing that I read about Howell was that during his 3rd year at NC he did not have the weapons he used to have, because they were drafted into the NFL, so he actually had to run for close 900 yards with 11 TDs.  One surprising tidbit was Dyami Brown who used to be his go to guy at NC, has actually not helped him this year, The timing between these two has been a little off. A number of throws I thought Brown would haul in, he either dropped, or missed, but for the most part, their production together pales in comparison to their time together in NC.   It just seems to me that regardless of who is at QB in NY they have our number.  And similarly, we always play the Eagles fairly tight.   Clearly if the GM thinks you grab one of those 3 top QB prospects, that is what they are going to do. Regardless I think Howell will have a decent year with the right coaching and some weapons. 

I know, dyami is not looking to good and you would think Sam and him would have better chemistry. One thing that I don't understand is even after talking all throws hits Sam's clock still feels the same, maybe that's a good thing and means he's tough and he's mentally strong and won't break under pressure, but it could also mean he has trouble adjusting. I like the guy, he is tough as nails, but taylor was tough as nails to. I don't want to lose out if we are going to pass on qb. If we are not going qb I'd like to see Sam lead us to some victories here at the end. It would be better for his confidence and we would probably still be in position to land one of the top 2 tackles.

[mac8887]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So what you are saying is that you have no evidence to support your very strong opinions?

 

How about being outplayed by tommy devitto and Tyrod taylor. Or him leading the league in pick 6s, or maybe leading the league in sacks, or maybe the offense stalling out in between the 40s. Or maybe the fact that the pundits have gone from Washington's got there guy to washington needs to be seriously checking into these qbs. Or maybe the 4-9 record. Or maybe ranking towards the bottom in most if not all of the qb metrics.

[KDawg]

I think fanbase are too quick to judge young QBs. However, I also think there has to be SOME urgency on finding out if the QB can do it or not. 
 

I actually think a big part of it should be the locker room. Not what they say to the media. But what they really feel. If they’re on board I think it’s smart to give that QB some play. 
 

If they’re iffy or against, then move on.

Just now, mac8887 said:

How about being outplayed by tommy devitto and Tyrod taylor. Or him leading the league in pick 6s, or maybe leading the league in sacks, or maybe the offense stalling out in between the 40s. Or maybe the fact that the pundits have gone from Washington's got there guy to washington needs to be seriously checking into these qbs. Or maybe the 4-9 record. Or maybe ranking towards the bottom in most if not all of the qb metrics.

Do you think the pick six against the Dolphins was on him? Kinda curious here. Stats are useless unless context is involved. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, mac8887 said:

How about being outplayed by tommy devitto and Tyrod taylor. Or him leading the league in pick 6s, or maybe leading the league in sacks, or maybe the offense stalling out in between the 40s. Or maybe the fact that the pundits have gone from Washington's got their guy to washington needs to be seriously checking into these qbs. Or maybe the 4-9 record. Or maybe ranking towards the bottom in most if not all of the qb metrics.

If only Sam had the luxury of playing the Washington defense.

 

He’s a young QB, with 3 folding chairs and 2 offensive lineman in front of him, and a first time OC that frankly stinks.

 

If he is as bad as you and the stats say he is, it shouldn’t be hard to find evidence that shows the scheme is getting guys open and he just doesn’t see it and chooses to gravitate into sacks instead.

 

We can go all the way back to the RG3/Cousins debates, and the film

made it clear as day that there were plays to be had, Robert just failed to pull the trigger.  Haskins (RIP) had a lot of bad tape, where he just wasn’t processing or floating it over wide open receivers heads.  I’m not finding this tape on Sam, where EB is scheming guys open with brilliance, and Sam is pooping the bed.  This is a bad offense with no tempo, persistent to keep banging it’s figurative head into the wall doing what it wants to do versus what’s best matchup wise.

Edited December 14, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[mac8887]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think fanbase are too quick to judge young QBs. However, I also think there has to be SOME urgency on finding out if the QB can do it or not. 
 

I actually think a big part of it should be the locker room. Not what they say to the media. But what they really feel. If they’re on board I think it’s smart to give that QB some play. 
 

If they’re iffy or against, then move on.

Do you think the pick six against the Dolphins was on him? Kinda curious here. Stats are useless unless context is involved. 

Yes, if you got that play called in the huddle then you have got to be ready as a qb for a person to jump that route. You gotta have stuff like that in the back of your mind. If it's not on the qb to be mentally prepared for that to happen then who is. Wylie didn't throw the pick neither did eb.

[zCommander]

50 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

In the hypothetical where I placed myself in the role of GM and had to face the decision being debated, yes.

 

What, exactly, are you taking issue with? Are you one of those people who gets pedantic about people referring to the team as "we"?

 

Maybe you should have been clear by simply saying if the team's scouts rather than saying your scouts. I have no idea what business or work you are in so it made it seem like you had your own personal scouts team. 

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

Yes, if you got that play called in the huddle then you have got to be ready as a qb for a person to jump that route. You gotta have stuff like that in the back of your mind. If it's not on the qb to be mentally prepared for that to happen then who is. Wylie didn't throw the pick neither did eb.

I think you’re asking a lot. 
 

If he doesn’t throw the ball someone here would be saying what a scrub he was for taking a sack on the screen he didn’t throw.

 

EB called the play, Wylie didn’t block a soul (you are supposed to engage DEs in particular on screens to get their hands down and get them out of the lane).

 

Howell threw it, for sure. But I think you’re wrong on him being the primary blame there. 

[mac8887]

Just now, KDawg said:

I think you’re asking a lot. 
 

If he doesn’t throw the ball someone here would be saying what a scrub he was for taking a sack on the screen he didn’t throw.

 

EB called the play, Wylie didn’t block a soul (you are supposed to engage DEs in particular on screens to get their hands down and get them out of the lane).

 

Howell threw it, for sure. But I think you’re wrong on him being the primary blame there. 

I'd much rather have a sack than a pick 6. Or even better throw it in the dirt. I don't think it's asking a lot for a qb the to think of the possibility of a guy jumping that route when it's the only route run on the play. Especially with Kerrigan on staff. Someone has bound to have told Sam in his entire qaurterbacking career, hey watch out for someone jumping the screen

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I'd much rather have a sack than a pick 6. Or even better throw it in the dirt. I don't think it's asking a lot for a qb the to think of the possibility of a guy jumping that route when it's the only route run on the play. Especially with Kerrigan on staff. Someone has bound to have told Sam in his entire qaurterbacking career, hey watch out for someone jumping the screen

Again, I don’t think he expected the defensive end to be 6 yards upfield. Wylie neglected his duty to the fullest extent 

[CapsSkins]

22 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Maybe you should have been clear by simply saying if the team's scouts rather than saying your scouts. I have no idea what business or work you are in so it made it seem like you had your own personal scouts team. 

 

If I had my own personal scout team and was still spending my days logging onto ES arguing with all you numbskulls, I'd hope somebody would have the heart to stage an intervention or make me a ward of the state.

[zCommander]

42 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

Yes, if you got that play called in the huddle then you have got to be ready as a qb for a person to jump that route. You gotta have stuff like that in the back of your mind. If it's not on the qb to be mentally prepared for that to happen then who is. Wylie didn't throw the pick neither did eb.

It took 1.2 seconds for that pick six, fastest pick 6 in NFL history. Howell threw the ball that quick but the defender was not touched and intercepted the ball instead. Wylie directly allowed that pick 6 to happen since the ball never made it to the WR!!!. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by zCommander

[mac8887]

13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Again, I don’t think he expected the defensive end to be 6 yards upfield. Wylie neglected his duty to the fullest extent 

He didn't expect it because he was not mentally prepared for it pre snap. That one read was the only thing he had to be ready for on that play. I've heard offensive lines be blamed for picks, but this is the first time ever anyone has ever heard of one single offensive lineman be blamed for a pick. I don't like Wylie either, wouldn't even come close to calling him serviceable, but you can't blame a pick on him, he has more to think about on that play then sam, who to block, how to engage, being weary of being ineligible down field.

[zCommander]

 

13 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

If I had my own personal scout team and was still spending my days logging onto ES arguing with all you numbskulls, I'd hope somebody would have the heart to stage an intervention or make me a ward of the state.

 

No one is forcing you to log on to ES. You can just simply log out so you don't have to argue with us numbskulls!!! You might want to rethink who the numbskull is

[mac8887]

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

It took 1.2 seconds for that pick six, fastest pick 6 in NFL history. Howell threw the ball that quick but the defender was not touched and intercepted the ball instead. Wylie directly allowed that pick 6 to happen since the ball never made it to the WR!!!. 

Why does Howell get a pass, Wylie wasn't in that defenders mind knowing what he was thinking. The defender gets paid to, it's not like he wasn't trying to not engage the blocker. There are tons of interceptions that fail to get to the receiver, especially ones that get jumped on out routes and crossing routes. Who is the olineman that gets the blame for those?