The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The third in run blocking is even more ridiculous as to the odd love affair that some statsicians have with this O line.  Feels like an odd joke.   lol, it just looks to people like us (most of us) Keim, Cooley, Jay and some others who follow the team that the O line is struggiling to open holes.  But apparently they are opening holes like the 1980s hogs -- and those bums Brian Robinson, Antonio Gibson just don't know what to do with these massive openings. 

 

 

 

Dear person X’ing,

 

Here is how to make it make sense. These artificial ratings are bad and shouldn’t be used for any reason.

 

Thank you,

 

People who watch the games 

[Koolblue13]

We know Gibson and BRob can run the ball well. The OL has some holes, but Cosmi and Leno are solid. Wylie is bad. Charles is either great or awful. Gates is hit and his too.

 

I think it comes down to communication and play calling, so my guess is it's still OL coaching and EB play calling first.

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We know Gibson and BRob can run the ball well. The OL has some holes, but Cosmi and Leno are solid. Wylie is bad. Charles is either great or awful. Gates is hit and his too.

 

I think it comes down to communication and play calling, so my guess is it's still OL coaching and EB play calling first.

I don’t think Cosmi or Leno are as good as folks here believe. But I also don’t think they are the problem and if the surrounding group was better they’d look substantially better.

[DWinzit]

I wish they would eat their pride and salary cap implications and give Larsen a shot at Center. 

 

Next move, do the same with at least trying Lucas at RT

 

try something please, Howell could use an extra second

[Koolblue13]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think Cosmi or Leno are as good as folks here believe. But I also don’t think they are the problem and if the surrounding group was better they’d look substantially better.

I think Leno is a slightly above average LT that struggles badly with speed rushers and Cosmi is solid enough, not spectacular, but I agree that they'd be fine with better pieces around them. 

 

I was against the Gates and Wylie signings from day one and EB promoted Charles defacto LG the day he was signed for some reason. He couldn't even crack the roster under Matsko.

11 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I wish they would eat their pride and salary cap implications and give Larsen a shot at Center. 

 

Next move, do the same with at least trying Lucas at RT

 

try something please, Howell could use an extra second

From TC my projected OL was Leno, Gates, Larson, Cosmi, Lucas.

 

If at worst, 4 of those guys are familiar playing together and have had some success. Changing out 4/5s of a unit without an established OL coach in house was ****ing stupid.

 

If you believe the new guys are better, work them in later in the season after you've established your OL.

[DWinzit]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

From TC my projected OL was Leno, Gates, Larson, Cosmi, Lucas.

 

If at worst, 4 of those guys are familiar playing together and have had some success. Changing out 4/5s of a unit without an established OL coach in house was ****ing stupid.

 

If you believe the new guys are better, work them in later in the season after you've established your OL.

Yeah I was under the impression from TC this was our best option - Leno, Wylie, Gates, Cosmi, Lucas. 

 

I have been happy enough with Charles play. Not sure Wylie can do better.

 

We all have taken the staffs take on Paul for granted that he wasn't ready. Now I think, why do they deserve the benefit of the doubt here?

 

While I'd love to see Strom in the mix, if we are playing to win right now, which this staff should be doing with their backs against the wall, Larsen should be the C. 

 

If Charles cant play Id love to see Wylie get pushed over and get Lucas in at RT

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We know Gibson and BRob can run the ball well. The OL has some holes, but Cosmi and Leno are solid. Wylie is bad. Charles is either great or awful. Gates is hit and his too.

 

I think it comes down to communication and play calling, so my guess is it's still OL coaching and EB play calling first.

Gibson definitely doesn’t run the ball well. In fact, he stinks. 
 

Robinson is an extremely average back. Rodriguez should get way more attempts 

[Warhead36]

I like what I've seen from Rodriguez so far. He's a smooth runner with hard, decisive cuts. He may not necessarily carry a pile the way Robinson can but I feel like he can get us the chunk 10 yard runs more often.

 

Gibson is an open field gadget and should be used in that way. He should never take up the gut hand offs.

 

Robinson is a battering ram with better hands than we think but not much dynamic playmaking ability.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The third in run blocking is even more ridiculous as to the odd love affair that some statsicians have with this O line.  Feels like an odd joke.   lol, it just looks to people like us (most of us) Keim, Cooley, Jay and some others who follow the team that the O line is struggiling to open holes.  But apparently they are opening holes like the 1980s hogs -- and those bums Brian Robinson, Antonio Gibson just don't know what to do with these massive openings. 

 

 

 

Do you all think there’s some conspiracy to push the WASHINGTON COMMANDERS’ offensive line agenda? Lol 

 

I’ll admit I wasn’t expecting the rankings to be this high but the analysis is what it is. The run block one makes a little more sense to me I guess bc we’ve known for years that Gibson and Robinson miss a lot of open lanes/lack patience. Your guy Keim talks about Robinson’s lack of patience almost every episode. If I’m not mistaken, he’s not used to running in a scheme like this. Gibson is a converted WR so that makes sense too. There was a chart going around a few offseasons ago that showed he left more yards on the table that almost any other back in the league. 

 

Again, I’d really like to see Rodriguez get more run. He has way more juice than I thought when he was drafted. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

And no analytics are not perfect. I disagree with some analysts’ takes a lot. Like this absolute gem:

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Do you all think there’s some conspiracy to push the WASHINGTON COMMANDERS’ offensive line agenda? Lol 

No, we just have eyes.

 

And find the way PFF grades offensive line to be out of touch with reality.

[Koolblue13]

CRod comes in during the 3rd when most teams are resting their starting defense and we're mostly throwing, so the run isn;t defended.

 

Wouldn't be ES if someone wasn't acting like not starting the late round pick with minimal production at the bottom of the depth chart was the problem. 

If only Fromm was our QB, then you'd all see what's up

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

CRod comes in during the 3rd when most teams are resting their starting defense and we're mostly throwing, so the run isn;t defended.

 

Wouldn't be ES if someone wasn't acting like not starting the late round pick with minimal production at the bottom of the depth chart was the problem. 

Can you point me to the gobs of production that Gibson and Robinson have given us over their respective careers? Honest question 

 

Gibson’s numbers are horrendous whether you’re looking at boxscores or “analytics”

 

Robinson’s numbers are quite pedestrian. 
 

What do either have on Rodriguez other than seniority and name value with fans? 
 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Koolblue13]

20 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Can you point me to the gobs of production that Gibson and Robinson have given us over their respective careers? Honest question 

 

Gibson’s numbers are horrendous whether you’re looking at boxscores or “analytics”

 

Robinson’s numbers are quite pedestrian. 
 

What do either have on Rodriguez other than seniority and name value with fans? 
 

 

Our entire offense is pretty pedestrian. We just put 7 points up on the Giants. Outside of the Eagles game our offense is the league worst.

 

Last season BRob coming back from injury and a rookie averaged 3.9 YPC, which was higher than the team average. This year it's 3.8, which again, higher than team average..

 

Most of our runs last game were up the middle from gun (which is dumb), against the best run blocking DT duo in the league who were blowing up our IOL all day. Those two were on the bench when CRod was in the game.

 

Robinson gets better with more carries and this season he has only had double digit carries once in three weeks, when we started the season feeding him and having success. 

 

CRod might be good. Might be great. I like him. The idea that he is somehow the answer to the question of why we suck running the ball however is ridiculous. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Do you all think there’s some conspiracy to push the WASHINGTON COMMANDERS’ offensive line agenda? Lol 

 

I’ll admit I wasn’t expecting the rankings to be this high but the analysis is what it is. The run block one makes a little more sense to me I guess bc we’ve known for years that Gibson and Robinson miss a lot of open lanes/lack patience. Your guy Keim talks about Robinson’s lack of patience almost every episode. If I’m not mistaken, he’s not used to running in a scheme like this. Gibson is a converted WR so that makes sense too. There was a chart going around a few offseasons ago that showed he left more yards on the table that almost any other back in the league. 

 

Again, I’d really like to see Rodriguez get more run. He has way more juice than I thought when he was drafted. 

 

Nope, you are the rare voice of reason here.  The O line has been fantastc.  We always agree with exactly PFF's take for years on everything.  We are making a wild exception here. It's 100% Howell and the RBs that are an issue.  Ron built us a special O line and we just can't appreciate that here.

 

While guys like Wylie and Gates, etc have been jags elsewhere at other stints, they've been fantastic here and blossomed.  The Howell homers and anti-Ron people don't see what's obvious to those outfits because we are way too emotional.

 

Jay, Cooley name the ones who know this system and see things differently about this O line are likewise emotional and couldn't be more wrong.  Trust these stats.  Stop complaining about a unit that's one of the best in the league.  i am expecting to see some of the dudes as ALL Pros or at a minimum Pro Bowlers.  It's about time we had a top 10 or for that matter top 3 O line unit in the league. 

 

Even Ron Rivera seems to be caught up in the fan nonsense about the O line, heard today good chance Gates is moved out of that center spot either to the bench or to LG -- Ron is a fool to breakup the chemistry, when you are killing it, you are killing it, he needs to block out the noise.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nope, you are the rare voice of reason here.  The O line has been fantastc.  We always agree with exactly PFF's take for years on everything.  We are making a wild exception here. It's 100% Howell and the RBs that are an issue.  Ron built us a special O line and we just can't appreciate that here.

 

While guys like Wylie and Gates, etc have been jags elsewhere at other stints, they've been fantastic here and blossomed.  The Howell homers and anti-Ron people don't see what's obvious to those outfits because we are way too emotional.

 

Jay, Cooley name the ones who know this system and see things differently about this O line are likewise emotional and couldn't be more wrong.  Trust these stats.  Stop complaining about a unit that's one of the best in the league.  i am expecting to see some of the dudes as ALL Pros or at a minimum Pro Bowlers.  It's about time we had a top 10 or for that matter top 3 O line unit in the league. 

 

Even Ron Rivera seems to be caught up in the fan nonsense about the O line, heard today good chance Gates is moved out of that center spot either to the bench or to LG -- Ron is a fool to breakup the chemistry, when you are killing it, you are killing it, he needs to block out the noise.

You really have an issue with the Oline stuff huh? To the point where you can’t have a rational conversation about him. I understand. That’s how I felt about Dan. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

You really have an issue with the Oline stuff huh? To the point where you can’t have a rational conversation about him. I understand. That’s how I felt about Dan. 

 

When you start your conversation accusing me of saying the rankings relate to me believing its a conspiracy theory -- so in effect ridiculing me.  Its you in my book that can't have a rational conversation.   So I hit back in the same tone you hit me with.  

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

31 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Our entire offense is pretty pedestrian. We just put 7 points up on the Giants. Outside of the Eagles game our offense is the league worst.

 

Last season BRob coming back from injury and a rookie averaged 3.9 YPC, which was higher than the team average. This year it's 3.8, which again, higher than team average..

 

Most of our runs last game were up the middle from gun (which is dumb), against the best run blocking DT duo in the league who were blowing up our IOL all day. Those two were on the bench when CRod was in the game.

 

Robinson gets better with more carries and this season he has only had double digit carries once in three weeks, when we started the season feeding him and having success. 

 

CRod might be good. Might be great. I like him. The idea that he is somehow the answer to the question of why we suck running the ball however is ridiculous. 

BRob averaged less YPC last year than Samaje Perine lol 

 

I don’t think Rodriguez is a beast or anything like that but I want to see more of him considering how middling our existing options are. His runs like different than everyone else’s.

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

When you start your conversation accusing me of saying the rankings relate to me believing its a conspiracy theory -- so in effect ridiculing me.  Its you in my book that can't have a rational conversation.   So I hit back in the same tone you hit me with.  

 

Fair enough. 
 

I kinda have a rule for sports analysis where if the only ppl arguing against a narrative are ppl with some type of bias (fans, beat reporters who are siloed around the players and coaches 24/7 , etc) then they are likely wrong and arguing from emotion. 
 

We see it time and time again with this team. 
 

I mean folks were pissed that the over/under was only 6.5. Folks get mad when they’re near the bottom of power rankings going into a season. This EXACT debate happened with RG3 and the fans (myself included bc I swore it was all on the line back then) were 100% wrong. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

 

I kinda have a rule for sports analysis where if the only ppl arguing against a narrative are ppl with some type of bias (fans, beat reporters who are siloed around the players and coaches 24/7 , etc) then they are likely wrong and arguing from emotion. 
 

We see it time and time again with this team. 
 

I mean folks were pissed that the over/under was only 6.5. Folks get mad when they’re near the bottom of power rankings going into a season. This EXACT debate happened with RG3 and the fans (myself included bc I swore it was all on the line back then) were 100% wrong. 
 

 

 

Specific to the O line here's why I don't take PFF 100% seriously.

 

A.  for starters i don't take them 100% seriously for reasons i explained.    I don't see them as a worthless joke as some others do either.  I've argued with both camps as to PFF.

 

B.  I actually like some of the PFF analysts more so than their grades especially their draft guys.  And as i pointed out on totally different points to this O line -- their takes don't often match the PFF scores.  They take their own employers (PFF) grades with a grain of salt.    I explained this in detail on the draft thread.   I heard for example one of their anaylists kill Wylie as a player in the off season, yet their scores don't kill him.  Look heck their scores don't kill dudes like Andrew Norwell and Trai Turner either, their last season when so many of us thought they were  bad -- they were OK according to PFF last year.

 

C.  To point B, Warren Sharp who as I am sure you know also is a big anayltics guy.  He's trashed PFF's grading for the O line compared to his metrics and ironically specfically took PFF task to their high grade for the Commanders O line a few years back.  I forgot his angle on that but it was something relating to how the Oline blocked in clear passing downs which he found to be the best metric to judge - PFF ranked them 6th, and Sharp ranked them near the bottom. 

 

D.  I pay attention to PFF's points.  And sometimes they contradict themselves.    For example they like to say sacks are more on the QB and the better way to judge the O line is pressure rate and hits.  Well according to PFF's own metrics these guys I believe lead the league in hits-pressure or close enough.  I saw one of their anaylists defend this contradiction by saying yes this o line is giving up a ton of hits-pressures but they said the O line should be given a break because of their high rate of passing the ball.

 

E.  It's not like all the stats defend the O line.  We lead in pressures-hits-sacks or top 2.  So traditional stats show this O line is abysmal.  So to take the PFF guys seriously, it has to be an argument that we should ignore those stats and value their metrics more. 

 

So we really really have to be big fans of PFF to run with them as the be all and end all.  I am not a PFF hater and some here can attest to that.  They from what I can tell have two people backing them up.  Mark Bullock.  And Logan Paulsen.  I don't take Paulsen seriously because he did a complete U-turn on this unit right after Keim mentioned the coaches are upset about how the media has trashed what they've seen from this unit in practice.

 

And even with PFF we got to wonder about them when some of their anaylsts are slamming their O line signings.  When they said it was the 27th best O line in the league before the season.   Based on pure stats including ones they track, the unit has been horrible.  So if I had to run with the PFF logic it would be look we did say hits are a good metric to judge O lineman but not this time.  And yes we thought very little of these players individually before the season and as a unit as a whole -- we've changed our mind and now believe this is one of the best unit in the league as they amass historic level bad stats. 

 

We have to also ignore the narratives of people that are smart watching film like Chris Cooley, Jay, etc.   We have to ignore our own eyes (at least some of us).  We got to ignore the personnel guys from other teams talking off the record who think this unit is trash.  This unit was ranked as abysmal by every outfit that ranked before the season -- whether it was Thon, PFN, PFF, Sharp, etc.  

 

It's like saying about a baseball player before the season -- "meh", this dude will strike out 150 times.  Then the season happens and he's on pace for striking out 200 times and one outfit that expected a bad season from said player says now that the season is taking place don't be misled by those 200 strikeouts, there is context to that, we've changed our minds on said player, he's actually now pretty good. 

 

That's why i don't go full love for PFF here.  It's not about thinking they have an agenda.  Its that it doesn't add up with even their own logic.  And its not the first rodeo for that with PFF.  

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Specific to the O line here's why I don't take PFF 100% seriously.

 

A.  for starters i don't take them 100% seriously for reasons i explained.    I don't see them as a worthless joke as some others do either.  I've argued with both camps as to PFF.

 

B.  I actually like some of the PFF analysts more so than their grades especially their draft guys.  And as i pointed out on totally different points to this O line -- their takes don't often match the PFF scores.  They take their own employers (PFF) grades with a grain of salt.    I explained this in detail on the draft thread.   I heard for example one of their anaylists kill Wylie as a player in the off season, yet their scores don't kill him.  Look heck their scores don't kill dudes like Andrew Norwell and Trai Turner either, their last season when so many of us thought they were  bad -- they were OK according to PFF last year.

 

C.  To point B, Warren Sharp who as I am sure you know also is a big anayltics guy.  He's trashed PFF's grading for the O line compared to his metrics and ironically specfically took PFF task to their high grade for the Commanders O line a few years back.  I forgot his angle on that but it was something relating to how the Oline blocked in clear passing downs which he found to be the best metric to judge - PFF ranked them 6th, and Sharp ranked them near the bottom. 

 

D.  I pay attention to PFF's points.  And sometimes they contradict themselves.    For example they like to say sacks are more on the QB and the better way to judge the O line is pressure rate and hits.  Well according to PFF's own metrics these guys I believe lead the league in hits-pressure or close enough.  I saw one of their anaylists defend this contradiction by saying yes this o line is giving up a ton of hits-pressures but they said the O line should be given a break because of their high rate of passing the ball.

 

E.  It's not like all the stats defend the O line.  We lead in pressures-hits-sacks or top 2.  So traditional stats show this O line is abysmal.  So to take the PFF guys seriously, it has to be an argument that we should ignore those stats and value their metrics more. 

 

So we really really have to be big fans of PFF to run with them as the be all and end all.  I am not a PFF hater and some here can attest to that.  They from what I can tell have two people backing them up.  Mark Bullock.  And Logan Paulsen.  I don't take Paulsen seriously because he did a complete U-turn on this unit right after Keim mentioned the coaches are upset about how the media has trashed what they've seen from this unit in practice.

 

And even with PFF we got to wonder about them when some of their anaylsts are slamming their O line signings.  When they said it was the 27th best O line in the league before the season.   Based on pure stats including ones they track, the unit has been horrible.  So if I had to run with the PFF logic it would be look we did say hits are a good metric to judge O lineman but not this time.  And yes we thought very little of these players individually before the season and as a unit as a whole -- we've changed our mind and now believe this is one of the best unit in the league as they amass historic level bad stats. 

 

We have to also ignore the narratives of people that are smart watching film like Chris Cooley, Jay, etc.   We have to ignore our own eyes (at least some of us).  We got to ignore the personnel guys from other teams talking off the record who think this unit is trash.  This unit was ranked as abysmal by every outfit that ranked before the season -- whether it was Thon, PFN, PFF, Sharp, etc.  

 

It's like saying about a baseball player before the season -- "meh", this dude will strike out 150 times.  Then the season happens and he's on pace for striking out 200 times and one outfit that expected a bad season from said player says now that the season is taking place don't be misled by those 200 strikeouts, there is context to that, we've changed our minds on said player, he's actually now pretty good. 

 

That's why i don't go full love for PFF here.  It's not about thinking they have an agenda.  Its that it doesn't add up with even their own logic.  And its not the first rodeo for that with PFF.  

 

 

It’s not just PFF tho. And I don’t necessarily disagree with your points about PFF in general. I listen to the pod and subscribe to premium but I think I prefer Sam and Steve to the other analysts 

 

no matter what source, it points a particular way. 

[Skinsinparadise]

@BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

 

I've seen some of the other stuff.  As Keim likes to say its not purely about time to sacks but just pressure at your feet.   

 

Lets look at PFF purely since that's the outfit most cite.  Based on their metrics this O line are giving up an insane number of hits.  And yes they attribute hits more to the O line.

 

On their metric of pressure of any kind (that's the point that Keim likes to make) Howell is in the top 10 as to getting the most.

 

Also it shows how easy it easy to manipulate stats if you want to highlight whatever.  Again sticking to PFF, they rated this O line this week as the 21st best this season.  21st.  And dropping. They are only 6 spots away from their predicted 27 which i bet the reach even by this O line's best friend, PFF, by the end of the season.

 

Sticking with Keim who is no flame thrower.  As he's said like 5 times in the last 2 weeks (I can't recall him ever being this critical of a regime on one point) if you know you got a young QB, and a young QB mind you who holds on to the ball, give him a good O line.  They failed to do that.

 

If you want your young QB to succeeed -- then factor your off season to that task versus throwing him to the wolves. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

BRob averaged less YPC last year than Samaje Perine lol 

 

I don’t think Rodriguez is a beast or anything like that but I want to see more of him considering how middling our existing options are. His runs like different than everyone else’s.

Fair enough. 
 

I kinda have a rule for sports analysis where if the only ppl arguing against a narrative are ppl with some type of bias (fans, beat reporters who are siloed around the players and coaches 24/7 , etc) then they are likely wrong and arguing from emotion. 
 

We see it time and time again with this team. 
 

I mean folks were pissed that the over/under was only 6.5. Folks get mad when they’re near the bottom of power rankings going into a season. This EXACT debate happened with RG3 and the fans (myself included bc I swore it was all on the line back then) were 100% wrong. 
 

 

You've been the EB of the board lately the way you post. Just pop in yelling random angry rants and run off. Definitely not your normal posting style and you haven't been around lately, but some of the takes are really hard to take seriously.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You've been the EB of the board lately the way you post. Just pop in yelling random angry rants and run off. Definitely not your normal posting style and you haven't been around lately, but some of the takes are really hard to take seriously.

I know I’m in the minority on the Oline stuff so that’s whatever. Agree to disagree. 
 

I cannot seriously believe you think Gibson and Robinson are good players relative to the rest of the league. If you do, please point me to what makes you think that. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I know I’m in the minority on the Oline stuff so that’s whatever. Agree to disagree. 
 

I cannot seriously believe you think Gibson and Robinson are good players relative to the rest of the league. If you do, please point me to what makes you think that. 

I think Robinson could be a very good back if we feed him the ball. Gibson can be a good third down type of CoP back who mostly catches passes out of the back field.

 

I have no love for Gibson. I'd like to see more of CRod because he's the best pass blocker, but he's obviously not the main answer.

 

It's the coaches. 

[Stihl89]

The RBs overall are just bad and not electric