Joe Theismann would be a Hall of Famer if....

[Califan007 The Constipated]

When your head coach wins three different Super Bowl with three different QBs, it dilutes your importance in the SB win and your stature in the eyes of sportswriters. Also, when your SB win was during a strike-shortened year it dilutes your stature in sportswriters' eyes. It probably shouldn't but it does.

[Malapropismic Depository]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:02 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

He’s a Redskin legend.  But gays different. 

 

That was a quick change of subject

[LightningBuggs]

I'll play.

 

And respond directly to the thread title, "Joe T would be a Hall of Famer if"....

 

...in the final 5 minutes of the final game in 1979, the Redskin defense makes one stop, or Harmon doesn't fumble, or Riggins picks up 1 yard, or etc.

 

If the Skins win that game, they're not only division champs, they have home field advantage throughout the playoffs.  That could have resulted in a first round home game with the Rams who went on to the Super Bowl after upsetting Dallas in Dallas and beating Tampa in an ugly fg contest in championship game.  Skins offense was rolling late in '79 and could have beaten both that Rams team and the Bucs.  Now they probably lose the Super Bowl to that juggernaut Steelers team but the Rams hung with them for 3 quarters so anything was possible.  Throw another SB on Joe's resume and his case gets better.

 

Of course, the domino effect of the above outcome means it's possible that Riggins returns in '80, the Redskins don't fall apart that season, and Pardee doesn't get fired.  Which of course would mean no Gibbs.

 

But it's a fun game to play.

 

 

[Conn]

12 hours ago, jnhutchi3 said:

Marino was not better than Theismann.  

Well with this kind of objectivity how can anyone doubt you on this topic? 

[Darc Requiem]

Given ludicrous position people have on Eli Manning in Sports media, all he would need was to beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl. Being mediocre with two rings is apparently all Eli needs.

[Dark Acre]

Theismann was a fiery leader, good arm, ultra-competitive, smart, good runner (he'd probably execute the RPO like a champ) but he's his own reason why he's not HOF-worthy.  If he hadn't been full of himself when Miami drafted him in '71 (he literally dodged the draft by going to Canada) he would have started in SB VII (against Washington).  Then he signs with a team whose head coach (George Allen, the good Allen) had to be given an exorcism to be convinced to start someone under 30.  So Joe T's first two years here (after 3 in Canada) he goes 9/11 and 10/22.  So 5 years into playing pro football, he's thrown 33 passes in the NFL.  His first year with D.C. he had more punt return -- yes PUNT RETURN -- yards (157) than passing yards (145, albeit on 9 atts, but he had 157 return yards on 10 attempts; so weird).  He didn't become a starter until '78 (Pardee's first year) and the talent he had at WR was bad and then got worse when Pardee traded Frank Grant and our 6-0 start crumbled to a 2-8 finish (some of you are now aware of this because I keep bringing it up).  He was throwing to guys named Danny Buggs, John McDaniel, and Jean Fugett (an ex-Cowboy TE who was pretty good).  Pardee's last year, 1980, after the epic 35-34 disaster, without Riggins, Theismann put up 2,962 yds.  One year later, under Gibbs and with Riggo back, JT threw for 600 yds *more* than the year before (and that was with 15 more rushing attempts teamwide than the year before).  It wasn't until Theismann had a head coach who viewed the offense as more than just a way to run the time down after you kick a few field goals and rely on a strong defense.  But while it was not too little, it was too late.

 

In the end, Gibbs was not enough for Theismann to reach HOF status.  Don't get me wrong:  he is my favorite QB of all time because I grew up with him as the QB of my Washington Redskins and he clearly led the team to the early Gibbs glory years.  He certainly had help, but he was no game manager.  And if you really want evidence that he could commit 100% to football when he had to, check out the SB retrospective on the '82 team and how when the strike hit, *Theismann*, on his own initiative, assembled the team at various dirt lots around NoVa to practice and keep sharp.  Without that, they don't win.  Even if they win the next year (and that's on Gibbs for not laying the ban hammer on pre-game festivities), that team was so damn loaded that winning would not boost his chances so much as not harm them.  Think about this:  in 1983, Skins led the league in rushing attempts and were 3rd in rush yards.  Naturally, Theismann didn't throw as many passes (19th in attempts) but 7th in yards (meaning, whether yards in the air or YAC, Joey's passes were gaining a lot of yards, which means he's not taking what the D will give him, he's taking what the D can't stop).  Not enough.

 

Joe shouldn't have run to Canada.  He had HOF potential, but he's not HOF-worthy because of his own choices.

If Washington lands Marino in the 1983 draft, Joe Gibbs wins every Super Bowl until he retires.  The play action alone would get Marino an Emmy nomination.  Ricky Sanders would have set the career receiving yards record.

[jnhutchi3]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Well with this kind of objectivity how can anyone doubt you on this topic? 

Marino padded his stats because he threw so much.  If my life depended on the outcome of a football game, I would take Theismann over Marino.  Theismann had a 6 - 2 playoff record and a Super Bowl victory.  Marino usually didn't play his best when it mattered most.  Especially in 1985, when they lost the AFC Championship at home to the lowly Patriots.  One of the biggest upsets in NFL playoff history.

[jnhutchi3]

7 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Theismann was a fiery leader, good arm, ultra-competitive, smart, good runner (he'd probably execute the RPO like a champ) but he's his own reason why he's not HOF-worthy.  If he hadn't been full of himself when Miami drafted him in '71 (he literally dodged the draft by going to Canada) he would have started in SB VII (against Washington).  Then he signs with a team whose head coach (George Allen, the good Allen) had to be given an exorcism to be convinced to start someone under 30.  So Joe T's first two years here (after 3 in Canada) he goes 9/11 and 10/22.  So 5 years into playing pro football, he's thrown 33 passes in the NFL.  His first year with D.C. he had more punt return -- yes PUNT RETURN -- yards (157) than passing yards (145, albeit on 9 atts, but he had 157 return yards on 10 attempts; so weird).  He didn't become a starter until '78 (Pardee's first year) and the talent he had at WR was bad and then got worse when Pardee traded Frank Grant and our 6-0 start crumbled to a 2-8 finish (some of you are now aware of this because I keep bringing it up).  He was throwing to guys named Danny Buggs, John McDaniel, and Jean Fugett (an ex-Cowboy TE who was pretty good).  Pardee's last year, 1980, after the epic 35-34 disaster, without Riggins, Theismann put up 2,962 yds.  One year later, under Gibbs and with Riggo back, JT threw for 600 yds *more* than the year before (and that was with 15 more rushing attempts teamwide than the year before).  It wasn't until Theismann had a head coach who viewed the offense as more than just a way to run the time down after you kick a few field goals and rely on a strong defense.  But while it was not too little, it was too late.

 

In the end, Gibbs was not enough for Theismann to reach HOF status.  Don't get me wrong:  he is my favorite QB of all time because I grew up with him as the QB of my Washington Redskins and he clearly led the team to the early Gibbs glory years.  He certainly had help, but he was no game manager.  And if you really want evidence that he could commit 100% to football when he had to, check out the SB retrospective on the '82 team and how when the strike hit, *Theismann*, on his own initiative, assembled the team at various dirt lots around NoVa to practice and keep sharp.  Without that, they don't win.  Even if they win the next year (and that's on Gibbs for not laying the ban hammer on pre-game festivities), that team was so damn loaded that winning would not boost his chances so much as not harm them.  Think about this:  in 1983, Skins led the league in rushing attempts and were 3rd in rush yards.  Naturally, Theismann didn't throw as many passes (19th in attempts) but 7th in yards (meaning, whether yards in the air or YAC, Joey's passes were gaining a lot of yards, which means he's not taking what the D will give him, he's taking what the D can't stop).  Not enough.

 

Joe shouldn't have run to Canada.  He had HOF potential, but he's not HOF-worthy because of his own choices.

 

I'm not sure why you say "not enough" regarding Theismann.  Yeah, he was only a starter for 7 - 8 years, but he had more passing yards than Staubach and almost as many passing yards as Bradshaw.  And he had a better TD/INT ratio than Bradshaw, which is one of the most important QB stats that should be considered.

 

When evaluating a QB, you should also look at how dominant his team was.  Theismann led the most prolific offense in NFL history in 1983 (at that time).  The 1983 Redskins are still ranked #9 all-time in points scored during a season, the ONLY team prior to the 1990s that is still in the top 10 in that category.  Washington only lost a total of 3 games during 1982 and 1983.  Theismann was the best QB in the league during 1982 and 1983 and that is good enough for me to vote him in.

[Dark Acre]

There are two types of QBs in the HOF:  1) those with such gaudy stats that they're in their because football is a spectator sport.  Who doesn't love a QB who throws for 5,000 yards every year? and 2) the ones who win multiple Super Bowls and demonstrate sustained playoff victories.  #1 is not Joe T.  #2 is not Joe T either, even if he'd won in '83 because it would really just be a matter of the NFL's best roster 2 years in a row.  Outside of that....  Cat #2 is for QBs like Bradshaw, Staubach, et al. who may not have had gaudy stats, even in their own times, but repeatedly won and won big time.  A game manager does not sustain repeated, high level victories.  An HOF QB does.  So Theismann had more yards than Staubach.  Staubach was the quarterback, not the passer.  Is it his fault he won more by throwing less?  And he did win when he threw.  He won 3 SBs, lost a couple more, and had an 85-29 career record.  As much as I hate Dallas, and I remember when Dallas week was a thing, to say Theismann should be in the HOF and citing him having more yards than Staubach in support, you're pulling my leg.

[jnhutchi3]

3 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

There are two types of QBs in the HOF:  1) those with such gaudy stats that they're in their because football is a spectator sport.  Who doesn't love a QB who throws for 5,000 yards every year? and 2) the ones who win multiple Super Bowls and demonstrate sustained playoff victories.  #1 is not Joe T.  #2 is not Joe T either, even if he'd won in '83 because it would really just be a matter of the NFL's best roster 2 years in a row.  Outside of that....  Cat #2 is for QBs like Bradshaw, Staubach, et al. who may not have had gaudy stats, even in their own times, but repeatedly won and won big time.  A game manager does not sustain repeated, high level victories.  An HOF QB does.  So Theismann had more yards than Staubach.  Staubach was the quarterback, not the passer.  Is it his fault he won more by throwing less?  And he did win when he threw.  He won 3 SBs, lost a couple more, and had an 85-29 career record.  As much as I hate Dallas, and I remember when Dallas week was a thing, to say Theismann should be in the HOF and citing him having more yards than Staubach in support, you're pulling my leg.

 

First of all, Staubach only won 2 Super Bowls, which is only one more than Theismann.  

 

You're too dismissive of Theismann's credentials for the HOF.  As I said earlier, he is the only QB who has won both a Super Bowl (1982) and NFL MVP (1983) who is not in the HOF.  Theismann also has an excellent winning percentage, just like Staubach.  The 1982 - 1983 Redskins teams were among the most dominant in NFL history and Theismann led those teams.

 

Was Theismann as good as Staubach?  No, I don't think so.  Staubach was the best QB of the 1970s in my opinion.  However, Theismann was better than Bradshaw.  He had almost as many passing yards as Bradshaw and he had a better TD/INT ratio than Bradshaw.  Bradshaw threw almost as many INTs as TDs during his career.  That was not the case with Theismann.  

[carex]

the NFL Hall of Fame is far more like the Hall of Famous.  If you're a big name you'll get in.  He wasn't a big enough name

[kfrankie]

On 1/29/2021 at 12:58 PM, LightningBuggs said:

I'll play.

 

And respond directly to the thread title, "Joe T would be a Hall of Famer if"....

 

...in the final 5 minutes of the final game in 1979, the Redskin defense makes one stop, or Harmon doesn't fumble, or Riggins picks up 1 yard, or etc.

 

If the Skins win that game, they're not only division champs, they have home field advantage throughout the playoffs.  That could have resulted in a first round home game with the Rams who went on to the Super Bowl after upsetting Dallas in Dallas and beating Tampa in an ugly fg contest in championship game.  Skins offense was rolling late in '79 and could have beaten both that Rams team and the Bucs.  Now they probably lose the Super Bowl to that juggernaut Steelers team but the Rams hung with them for 3 quarters so anything was possible.  Throw another SB on Joe's resume and his case gets better.

 

Of course, the domino effect of the above outcome means it's possible that Riggins returns in '80, the Redskins don't fall apart that season, and Pardee doesn't get fired.  Which of course would mean no Gibbs.

 

But it's a fun game to play.

 

 

 

So for the Domino effect, how's this:

 

if Theismann wins in 1983, and then has a similar year to his 1984, are the Redskins going to be so quick to move on from him after his injury in 1985?  Joe T. said it took about 1 1/2 years for him to really heal, and even into the late 80s he felt like he might play again.  Apparently his TV contract had a clause providing for the circumstance where he decided to return to the NFL.  Maybe the Redskins release Doug Williams after the 1986 season in anticipation of Joe's return, he and Schroeder duke it out for the starting position in 1987, and they don't catch fire in the playoffs.  Schroeder takes over in 1988 with Theismann as backup, so there's no reason to keep Rypien on the IR for a 3rd straight year so they let him go.  Joe T. retires and Schroeder craps the bed in 1989, and the team finishes 2-14 (Cowboys beat them twice).  Then, wIth the 1st overall pick in the 1990 draft, the Redskins select Jeff George.

[kfrankie]

Following up on my original hypothetical here, if Joe T. wins SB XVIII he falls into the same category as guys like Bob Griese, Ken Stabler, and Bart Starr.  Multiple SB winners, in the discussion for best in the game for 2-3 year peak, not overwhelming stats.  More worthy in my opinion than Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, or Kurt Warner.

[RabidFan]

On 1/29/2021 at 5:17 AM, Califan007 said:

When your head coach wins three different Super Bowl with three different QBs, it dilutes your importance in the SB win and your stature in the eyes of sportswriters. Also, when your SB win was during a strike-shortened year it dilutes your stature in sportswriters' eyes. It probably shouldn't but it does.

 

3 different RBs too