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kleese

"Their legs will heal, my soul will not." And yes, we still have meaningful games remaining (musings on fan survival)

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11 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I really don't get this.  Let's say it happens.  Are you happy we limp in to get crushed week 1?  Does that make it worthwhile?  I'd rather miss the playoffs when we have NO shot at making a run so we can draft higher and make a real run in a subsequent year.

 

Yeah, it would still be worth it to me. I'd think harder if you asked me to pick between 2-14 and a wild card exit, because at least there's plenty of long-term benefit to the former. But, we sealed our fate as a middling team when we jumped to 5-2/6-3 so at this point, I'd rather have a December like 2007 (Todd Collins) than 2008 (Zorn fade). 

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The difference between 8-8 teams and 10-6 teams in the NFL are slim.  Get into the playoffs, limp in, collapse backwards in....doesn't matter.  When you get a shot at a 1 game elimination tournament you take that shot because any given Sunday.

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11 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

The difference between 8-8 teams and 10-6 teams in the NFL are slim.  Get into the playoffs, limp in, collapse backwards in....doesn't matter.  When you get a shot at a 1 game elimination tournament you take that shot because any given Sunday.

 

 If the Redskins somehow, by powers unknown to us, make it into the paloffs, there's a good chance our opponent will be laughing so hard that they can't concentrate on the game and we slip by them!

Or we could sneak onto the stadium property and inject a highly concentrated diarrhetic into the water lines. Every hit we hear a squirting sound...lol

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On 12/4/2018 at 8:22 PM, TheGreatBuzz said:

I really don't get this.  Let's say it happens.  Are you happy we limp in to get crushed week 1?  Does that make it worthwhile?  I'd rather miss the playoffs when we have NO shot at making a run so we can draft higher and make a real run in a subsequent year.

 

This is the approach I do not understand - not even a little bit. I want the team to do as well as it can - always. Laying down or getting beat on purpose is a losers mentality. The fact that you can be rewarded for it in the NFL is pretty disgusting to be honest. 

 

Anytime you make it to a single game elimination anything can happen. Several 9-7 teams have won the SB by getting in and getting hot. Will it happen to the Redskins? Highly doubtful. But if they win out or go 3-1 and get into the POs they will be have to be playing with some confidence. And sometimes that's enough to be the difference between winning and losing a one game elimination. 

 

If they make it great! If they don't, start looking at next year. 

 

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I have missed one game in 43 years, the 3-0 loss to the Jets that fell during the holidays and it could not be helped. Sunday will be the 2nd, next week will be the 3rd.

 

 

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I have missed one game in 43 years, the 3-0 loss to the Jets that fell during the holidays and it could not be helped. Sunday will be the 2nd, next week will be the 3rd.

 

 

 

This is different than wishing them to lose - referring to another post. I too am unlikely to watch the game Sunday. Until last year I had missed less than a handful of games (almost all due to traveling for work) since 1969. I turned off last weeks game not too far into the 3rd quarter. 

 

I want them to win so bad, i just cannot continue to watch them get embarrassed week in and week out. But I could never be happy they lost.  

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14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

This is different than wishing them to lose - referring to another post. I too am unlikely to watch the game Sunday. Until last year I had missed less than a handful of games (almost all due to traveling for work) since 1969. I turned off last weeks game not too far into the 3rd quarter. 

 

I want them to win so bad, i just cannot continue to watch them get embarrassed week in and week out. But I could never be happy they lost.  

Yeah I'm not sure I can openly root for them to lose.  it's more apathy, when I hear things go bad I may even chuckle but I won't openly root for it.  

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Veering slightly off-topic, if Sanchez leads this team to a 3-1 finish and we make the playoffs is that more or less miraculous than the Collins-led 2007 finish? It's an interesting discussion because I can see both sides...

 

Collins was QB2 and knew Saunders' scheme very well (more similar to Colt than Sanchez) while Sanchez has only been here 2-3 weeks. However, Collins had thrown about 27 passes over the previous decade while Sanchez had at least started a couple games just 2 seasons ago. 

 

The 2007 team had just lost 4 straight and buried Sean Taylor so it would have been easy to throw in the towel. However, this team has been going through a second straight year of unbelievable injuries and is on a 3-game losing streak. 

 

Joe Gibbs was legendary and galvanizing teams and players, but even his teams in his second stint had bottomed out (so it COULD happen). He lost 10+ games in 2 of the previous 3 seasons so it's not like limping to the finish line would have been unprecedented. Gruden doesn't seem to have THAT magic, but he also has shown that he can hold a team together and fight through tough situations in his tenure here. 

 

This could all be moot by 3:45 on Sunday if we get blown out by NY, but for now it's a fun thought exercise.

 

Discuss!

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10 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Veering slightly off-topic, if Sanchez leads this team to a 3-1 finish and we make the playoffs is that more or less miraculous than the Collins-led 2007 finish? It's an interesting discussion because I can see both sides...

 

Collins was QB2 and knew Saunders' scheme very well (more similar to Colt than Sanchez) while Sanchez has only been here 2-3 weeks. However, Collins had thrown about 27 passes over the previous decade while Sanchez had at least started a couple games just 2 seasons ago. 

 

The 2007 team had just lost 4 straight and buried Sean Taylor so it would have been easy to throw in the towel. However, this team has been going through a second straight year of unbelievable injuries and is on a 3-game losing streak. 

 

Joe Gibbs was legendary and galvanizing teams and players, but even his teams in his second stint had bottomed out (so it COULD happen). He lost 10+ games in 2 of the previous 3 seasons so it's not like limping to the finish line would have been unprecedented. Gruden doesn't seem to have THAT magic, but he also has shown that he can hold a team together and fight through tough situations in his tenure here. 

 

This could all be moot by 3:45 on Sunday if we get blown out by NY, but for now it's a fun thought exercise.

 

Discuss!

 

 

I think all things considered that 2007 was probably more talented. The one big talent difference that stands out to me is London Fletcher. Springs and Smoot probably also actually been better than what we have now. 

Edited by dballer

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3 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

 

I think all things considered that 2007 was probably more talented. The one big talent difference that stands out to me is London Fletcher. Springs and Smoot probably also actually been better than what we have now. 

 

Meaning you think THIS season (if it happens, of course) would be more of a miracle than that season? 

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3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Meaning you think THIS season (if it happens, of course) would be more of a miracle than that season? 

 

I’d lean 2007 slightly because we were 5-7 as opposed to 6-6 and had to win all four. This year 3 out of 4 could very possibly do it. The injuries and the fact that our QB wasn’t in the NFL on November 15th might push this year over though. 

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On 12/4/2018 at 2:23 PM, kleese said:

I've always said the reason I don't loathe Snyder the way others do is because my rock bottom started before he even took over. 1996-2000 were my bottoming years in terms of pain inflicted and expectations and hopes dashed. That's when I "grew up" as a sports fan and realized that the Redskins of my childhood were dead and gone. I certainly didn't anticipate 18 more years (and counting) of continued disappointment, but I decided way back then that I was either going to enjoy this REGARDLESS of results or I wasn't.

I guess this is what I struggle with. If you say that after the Norv years, you weren't going to let the result of the games get to you as much, that is more maturity than anything. But from a results perspective, the past several seasons have been roughly similar to the last five Norv years you mention. But, IMO, the intervening 13 seasons (2001-13), I would argue, have been much more soul-sucking for a lot of fans than the Norv years were. So are we just supposed to say that, "Eh, the Norv years killed my expectations, so I don't loathe Snyder as much for the s-show this organization was for the next decade plus?"

 

Maybe I'm just losing something in the translation................

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7 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

I guess this is what I struggle with. If you say that after the Norv years, you weren't going to let the result of the games get to you as much, that is more maturity than anything. But from a results perspective, the past several seasons have been roughly similar to the last five Norv years you mention. But, IMO, the intervening 13 seasons (2001-13), I would argue, have been much more soul-sucking for a lot of fans than the Norv years were. So are we just supposed to say that, "Eh, the Norv years killed my expectations, so I don't loathe Snyder as much for the s-show this organization was for the next decade plus?"

 

Maybe I'm just losing something in the translation................

 

I don't think it's necessarily a defendable or arguable point...it's emotions and feelings. 

 

If kleese came to a resignation or realization emotionally at a time in his life, then he saw the Snyder years through a different lens than some others did. I'm on his timeline too (I think due to the age I was as things transpired). It's not dissimilar from checking out of a relationship a year before getting cheated on or something. You might still be mad or upset that something like that happened to you, but you couldn't be as hurt as you may have been if you were still all-in. 

 

Like kleese, I was a child through a young teen during the Gibbs years. So, when not much more was going on in my life as an American boy in the 1980s (friends, my own sports, and the Redskins), they were dominant and fun to watch. The most impressionable time of my life lined up with the franchise's golden era. So, as 1993 through 1998 happened, not only did they fade as a team but my attention was spread much more thin. That was when I was 16-21 so I invested a lot more time in things like girls, my basketball career, college, etc. I still loved watching the Redskins each Sunday and maintained my ritual, but it took a healthier role in my life haha

 

So, by the time Snyder took over and the 2000s hit, I had almost already "grown out" of what the Redskins were to me. I'm actually more into them now than I was in that post-Gibbs/pre-Snyder era. But, nothing can hurt me like those first few years after our last Super Bowl. It's almost like I'm able to button up those memories as one franchise led by great men (Cooke, Beathard, and Gibbs) and partition it from what's happened since 1992. 

 

I'm sure none of that makes sense...hahaha

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2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Veering slightly off-topic, if Sanchez leads this team to a 3-1 finish and we make the playoffs is that more or less miraculous than the Collins-led 2007 finish? It's an interesting discussion because I can see both sides...

More.

 

If Jay and Sanchez find a way into the playoffs, I expect shrines built outside the new stadium. I’d also expect everybody here that ever trashed Jay to attend said ceremony and eat a steaming pile of crow in front of it.

 

In 2007, you atleast had a motivating factor to drive the team in Sean’s death.  Also less injuries.

 

In 2018, we have a bunch of drama and the defensive leader calling everyone out for the umpteenth time.  I’d venture a guess we have quite a few folks making their vacation plans already.  As fans we have nothing to believe in, imagine what it’s like being on the roster?

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1 hour ago, hail2skins said:

I guess this is what I struggle with. If you say that after the Norv years, you weren't going to let the result of the games get to you as much, that is more maturity than anything. But from a results perspective, the past several seasons have been roughly similar to the last five Norv years you mention. But, IMO, the intervening 13 seasons (2001-13), I would argue, have been much more soul-sucking for a lot of fans than the Norv years were. So are we just supposed to say that, "Eh, the Norv years killed my expectations, so I don't loathe Snyder as much for the s-show this organization was for the next decade plus?"

 

Maybe I'm just losing something in the translation................

 

I think it’s two things... back then I was totally wrapped up in the winning a losing and didn’t take the time to enjoy the other aspects of being a fan like the anticipation, the routine, etc. I grew up expecting deep January runs and was taken aback by how bad it sucked to not be there. When it became clear that we may NEVER get back to that level, I decided if I was going to survive as a fan I needed to change my mindset to an extent and find ways to enjoy the season even when the season was disappointing (or worse). I came to that point before Snyder ever took over so his presence has never overly angered me (although he clearly has been a bad owner).

 

I also don’t hate Snyder because I know he actually cares deeply about the Redskins and really wants to win. I just think he is terrible at it. I think he’s tried and just sucks at it— poor judge of people, poor leadership skills, probably lacks confident in his ability to do it, etc. So while I don’t paint him in a sympathetic light; I don’t view him quite as evil as others do. 

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1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

More.

 

If Jay and Sanchez find a way into the playoffs, I expect shrines built outside the new stadium. I’d also expect everybody here that ever trashed Jay to attend said ceremony and eat a steaming pile of crow in front of it.

 

In 2007, you atleast had a motivating factor to drive the team in Sean’s death.  Also less injuries.

 

In 2018, we have a bunch of drama and the defensive leader calling everyone out for the umpteenth time.  I’d venture a guess we have quite a few folks making their vacation plans already.  As fans we have nothing to believe in, imagine what it’s like being on the roster?

 

I think I agree...devil's advocate is that Taylor's death plus the ensuing loss vs. the Bills could have easily put the team in the tank. So, just because they DID get through it, doesn't make it less miraculous. Just my take. 

 

I do think that if Sanchez plays well and we go 9-7 or 10-6 (especially in light of what we're hearing about Smith complications), you could see Colt and Mark back as the two veteran QBs for next year plus a draft pick. 

38 minutes ago, kleese said:

 

I also don’t hate Snyder because I know he actually cares deeply about the Redskins and really wants to win. I just think he is terrible at it. I think he’s tried and just sucks at it— poor judge of people, poor leadership skills, probably lacks confident in his ability to do it, etc. So while I don’t paint him in a sympathetic light; I don’t view him quite as evil as others do. 

 

This is close to my take. He's far from blameless and has made a bunch of mistakes, but I think his biggest flaw is trusting and hitching his wagon to the wrong guys. 

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What really is depressing is that in years past, 6-6 would have meant that the team was on a positive trajectory (at least for the remainder of the season).  The last 4 playoff appearances were due to win streaks to end the season.  I believe twice the team was 5-6 and won out.....2012 I can't remember the exact record.....2015.....nope, a little foggy however putting my memory issues aside, during those seasons 6-6 was the start of the fun.  This season it feels like the beginning of the end (or even beyond that).

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22 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Meaning you think THIS season (if it happens, of course) would be more of a miracle than that season? 

 

Yes in the way that I feel that team had more business being in the playoffs than this one does.

 

But...looking back now, we had to beat 2 other playoff teams, one of which won the SB, an 8-8 team and a 7-9 team. This season could play out in a way that it doesn't even take all that much luck. As of now, only one team left on the schedule has a winning record, the Titans, who are a very beatable team. There's also a very real possibility 8-8 could make it. 

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All things considered if Mark Sanchez leads this team to a 3-1 record to end the season (regardless of it it means a playoff birth or not), with the limited amount of time he has been here, and with these position players, I don't think it is beyond reasonable to look at him as a better option than Colt McCoy if two things happen:

 

1) Alex Smith retires due to injury/injury complications

 

2) Redskins plan on drafting a QB and running with a stop-gap option for 2019 (and possibly 2020 as well).

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