LD0506 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 uhhhhh........ so much of this goes back to that ****ing Gordon Gecko.... "Greed is good"........... and the hardworking slowwitted all came to believe that they can be just as selfish and greedy too and they'll get to have uber-expensive cars and penthouses suites and knock up models and the rest How is it that people who don't have jack**** will pour millions of dollars into losing lotto tickets every week? Greed, naked unabashed unapologetic greed has been normalized and raised to a virtue People act like no one EVER worked hard or invented anything or was successful before they could funnel all their ill booten gotty into offshore bank accounts and never pay any taxes My response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: Nobody is begrudging people for working hard or creating an amazing company/product that makes them a lot of money. There are people at every income level that will cheat the system though. There are obvious loopholes that many super wealthy are exploiting. That’s what we’re talking about here. i.e. A system where certain people are charged with making the rules that should benefit all of society but where very, very rich people are allowed to use money in order to influence those people so that they will create rules that benefit very, very rich people instead is not a good system. The article doesnt suggest closing loop holes. It suggests redistributing income from the people who create amazing products to those who don’t. It suggests forcing businesses to be responsible for employees health care. It suggests that we punish the winners in order to help the loo... er, not winners. eg, guarantee an outcome. Did you read the last paragraph of the article? Related: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/28/abject-poverty-is-the-natural-state-of-mankind-wealth-the-thing-created/#57a5a0ab57e4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2017/01/18/oxfam-is-wrong-to-connect-extreme-wealth-with-extreme-poverty/#390a84b64f05 We have been constantly increasing the minimum wage and the income tax for the very wealth is already fairly high, yet we seem to be making no progress and yet everyone is convinced if we just double down it’s going to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 24 minutes ago, Fergasun said: I think the point is that the Amazon's, Wal-Mart's and other goliaths in the business world should ensure their employees are fairly compensated. It seems obvious things as they are are out of control. What is a “fair wage” for lifting something off a shelf and putting it into a box? Quote Why are the rich so stingy as a collective to keep the scales tipped in their favor? The poor keep buying things from the rich. You want to rally against the man buy from small business. But no one does that. No, the buy from the evil empire amazon because it’s faster, better, cheaper. Because they have figured out how to cut the expensive inefficient employee out of their system using automation and only need minimum wage employees. We vote with our dollar. We make the super rich rich. Raising taxes on the rich or increasing the minimum wage only increases the velocity of money in the economy, it doesn’t reduce poverty (or increase wealth). The poor don’t save, they just find more stuff to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 47 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: The article doesnt suggest closing loop holes. It suggests redistributing income from the people who create amazing products to those who don’t. It suggests forcing businesses to be responsible for employees health care. It suggests that we punish the winners in order to help the loo... er, not winners. eg, guarantee an outcome. Did you read the last paragraph of the article? Related: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/28/abject-poverty-is-the-natural-state-of-mankind-wealth-the-thing-created/#57a5a0ab57e4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2017/01/18/oxfam-is-wrong-to-connect-extreme-wealth-with-extreme-poverty/#390a84b64f05 We have been constantly increasing the minimum wage and the income tax for the very wealth is already fairly high, yet we seem to be making no progress and yet everyone is convinced if we just double down it’s going to get better. Do you know what year the Opium Wars were or what year the British came into power in India? We haven't been "constantly increasing" the minimum wage. The minimum wage, when adjusted for by inflation, has been falling further and further behind inflation for the last 30 years or so, while we've been giving the very wealthy manners to escape taxes. And your comment about Bezos wealth at birth is not relevant to my point. Try reading my post again and maybe you can say something that's actually relevant or intelligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 37 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Do you know what year the Opium Wars were or what year the British came into power in India? We haven't been "constantly increasing" the minimum wage. The minimum wage, when adjusted for by inflation, has been falling further and further behind inflation for the last 30 years or so. That is my point. Every time we increase minimum wage it has zero effect because real wage stays the same. Minimum wage will never catch up to inflation, it is a cause of inflation. Its partially responsible for the decrease middle income jobs because big companies search for substitutes, eg automation and outsourcing... Quote And your comment about Bezos wealth at birth is not relevant to my point. Try reading my post again and maybe you can say something that's actually relevant or intelligent. Your “point” is based on a lie. People aren’t rich solely because they are rich, which is your “argument”. The origin of wealth isn’t “tada, there it is”... it’s always created. You have something of value, you sell it, become rich, then become wealthy. The wealth often sell their creations too poorer people who want, not need, what they are selling, and value it more than their ability to create wealth (eg save) We don’t live in a caste system. It’s difficult, but not impossible to become rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 11 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Not sure if you noticed, but the wealthy have waged class war on everyone else since Reagan took over. Saying that, this isn't what this is about. Wealthy people need to pay more in taxes instead of establishing BS foundations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Read The NY Times article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 9 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: That is my point. Every time we increase minimum wage it has zero effect because real wage stays the same. Minimum wage will never catch up to inflation, it is a cause of inflation. Its partially responsible for the decrease middle income jobs because big companies search for substitutes, eg automation and outsourcing... Your “point” is based on a lie. People aren’t rich solely because they are rich, which is your “argument”. The origin of wealth isn’t “tada, there it is”... it’s always created. You have something of value, you sell it, become rich, then become wealthy. The wealth often sell their creations too poorer people who want, not need, what they are selling, and value it more than their ability to create wealth (eg save) We don’t live in a caste system. It’s difficult, but not impossible to become rich. 1. There's 0 evidence that minimum wage over all increases inflation. Minimum wage increases might cause increases on specific things, but there's no evidence that over the total and larger economy that there are corresponding increases in inflation. If it was that clear, there would not be tons of studies and literature on the effects of minimum wage. Oh, look, the minimum wage did go up with respect to inflation, when we actually raised the minimum wage on a regular basis: (Picture did not embed properly for some reason. Here is a link showing that yes, regular raises in the minimum wage did cause it to increase even when taking into account inflation https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/12/26/heres-how-much-federal-minimum-wage-fell-this-year/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.826f67815c19). 2. And even in that context that there is SOME Increase in the prices of SOME things due to increases in minimum wages, there is 0 evidence that pass through is 100%. Therefore increasing the minimum wage at least in some cases does some good. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. 3. I didn't say solely. You're responding making a straw man and completely ignoring the point that I did make, but the fact of the matter is that Bezos did not create the wealth he has. He has collected it from other people. 4. The fact of the matter is that income mobility is now lower in the US than it was for most of the post-WW2 period, Canada, and most of Europe. And it is because of specific changes in our national policies (e.g. the tax code). I and many other people, including "conservative" economists believe we'd be better off if we'd enact policies that made it wealth mobility more common and easier as it is in Canada, much of Europe, and earlier in US history. Even in the most restrictive caste systems that I know of in history there was some wealth/income mobility. That it is possible doesn't mean the system is working well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: 1. There's 0 evidence that minimum wage over all increases inflation. Minimum wage increases might cause increases on specific things, but there's no evidence that over the total and larger economy that there are corresponding increases in inflation. If it was that clear, there would not be tons of studies and literature on the effects of minimum wage. Oh, look, the minimum wage did go up with respect to inflation, when we actually raised the minimum wage on a regular basis: (Picture did not embed properly for some reason. Here is a link showing that yes, regular raises in the minimum wage did cause it to increase even when taking into account inflation https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/12/26/heres-how-much-federal-minimum-wage-fell-this-year/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.826f67815c19). 2. And even in that context that there is SOME Increase in the prices of SOME things due to increases in minimum wages, there is 0 evidence that pass through is 100%. Therefore increasing the minimum wage at least in some cases does some good. how is it working out, empirically? We’ve increased minimum wage but in the long run it has had no real effect. Quote 3. I didn't say solely. You're responding making a straw man and completely ignoring the point that I did make, but the fact of the matter is that Bezos did not create the wealth he has. He has collected it from other people. Quote They money existed already so the wealth already existed. uh, i think it’s pretty clear what you said. If you didn’t mean that, it’s cool. But you said what you said. What was the point that you did make? “They were wealthy because they were rich”, ok, how did they get rich? Because they were rich? lol.. You are shifting your argument. If bezoz “collected” his wealth from other people, instead of created it, other people’s wealth would go down. That’s not what’s happening. The gap beteeen the rich and poor isn’t happening because the poors real wage is going down (it’s been flat). zits been happening because the rich have been getting richer, eg, creating wealth. Sucks when people drop facts, right? And i don’t mean down the stairs... >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 35 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: how is it working out, empirically? We’ve increased minimum wage but in the long run it has had no real effect. uh, i think it’s pretty clear what you said. If you didn’t mean that, it’s cool. But you said what you said. What was the point that you did make? “They were wealthy because they were rich”, ok, how did they get rich? Because they were rich? lol.. You are shifting your argument. If bezoz “collected” his wealth from other people, instead of created it, other people’s wealth would go down. That’s not what’s happening. The gap beteeen the rich and poor isn’t happening because the poors real wage is going down (it’s been flat). zits been happening because the rich have been getting richer, eg, creating wealth. Sucks when people drop facts, right? And i don’t mean down the stairs... >_> How do mean it has had no effect? When the minimum wage was going up as a function inflation, the number of people living in poverty were going down. Since the minimum wage has been declining as a function of inflation, the number of people living in poverty have been going up. That certainly seems like evidence of an effect. My original point about wealth was in my original post. I made 2 points in that post. You can go back and look. People's desires don't create wealth. Production creates wealth. There's no real evidence that the wealthy in general are particularly productive. Having wealthy parents is the easiest way to become wealthy today, and Bezos didn't create his wealth, he collected it from other people. Both things are true. And both points were made in my original post. No shifting arguments. American worker are really getting poorer. Income isn't the only thing that has value. It isn't showing up in income because they are offsetting the real lower income by working more. And being more productive in their work. Farmers today generate more produce from their land (an actual wealth generation), but don't really make any more money than previous generations. They do so by working more and being more productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Quote My original point about wealth was in my original post. I made 2 points in that post. You can go back and look. People's desires don't create wealth. Production creates wealth. There's no real evidence that the wealthy in general are particularly productive. What does productive mean? Inputs/outputs.... if wealthy weren’t productive they wouldn’t be wealthy for long and they certainly wouldn’t increase their wealth... Quote Bezos didn't create his wealth, he collected it from other people. Quote American worker are really getting poorer. Income isn't the only thing that has value. It isn't showing up in income because they are offsetting the real lower income by working more. The are working 14% more.... I wonder how many hours the bottom 10 percent of wage earners work.... Quote And being more productive in their work. Because of automation and processes created by the wealthy.... Quote Farmers today generate more produce from their land. by giving away their “wealth” to some rich wealthy dude that “created wealth” via a machine (Deer) or seed (Monsanto) that allows them to be more productive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I don't agree with most of what CousinsCowgirl is saying but one point I will agree with is how we vote with our dollar. We (the collective) love to piss and moan about the giants like Walmart and Amazon. Yet as we angrily pound away at our keyboards, we have another tab open ordering crap from Amazon getting it cheap and loving that it shows up in 2 days. Yet the mom and pop store down the street had that same crap for sale up until a week ago when they went out of business. #supportsmallbusiness #wearehypocrites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 26 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: What does productive mean? Inputs/outputs.... if wealthy weren’t productive they wouldn’t be wealthy for long and they certainly wouldn’t increase their wealth... The are working 14% more.... I wonder how many hours the bottom 10 percent of wage earners work.... Because of automation and processes created by the wealthy.... by giving away their “wealth” to some rich wealthy dude that “created wealth” via a machine (Deer) or seed (Monsanto) that allows them to be more productive.... 1. Putting my money into an index fund doesn't make me productive. Buying municipal bonds and living on interest doesn't make me productive. If I have money, doing those things will allow me to become more wealthy. 2. You've made an assumption there that I don't think that you can back up and that is the costs to farmers have gone up with respect to losses. Do farmers actually lose money buying Monsanto seeds vs. using older varieties? If that's the case, then it seems like they would stop doing it. I also think you are neglecting things like farmers are more educated and know more about good farming practices than they did in the past. 3. Even assuming your assumption is correct, you're still wrong. The money is going to the Monsanto stock holders. They didn't create seed. The John Deere stock holders didn't make the tractors, design or engineer the tractors, or even design or build the machines that built the tractors. And they are the ones that are (really net) getting the money. And that's the problem with the US economy. For the most part, the people that actually do the producing don't make the money. The money goes to people that had money. It isn't going to biologists, engineers, farmers, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Wealth mobility is really going down in the US, and it isn't because the average person is getting stupider or lazier (in fact they are working more and are more educated than in the past). We can do something about it, or we can continue to look the other way and make up fairy tales, while it continues to grow. The problem isn't that Bezos got rich off the idea of Amazon and the work that he put into it. He should have. The problem is that now that he is rich, he can easily keep getting richer by dumping his money into index funds and municipal bonds. Just by doing that, he can get richer faster than inflation and faster than most people that will and do work hard. And even his kids and following generations. They don't need to be productive to be rich. They just need to not be complete idiots or something like an addict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I don't agree with most of what CousinsCowgirl is saying but one point I will agree with is how we vote with our dollar. We (the collective) love to piss and moan about the giants like Walmart and Amazon. Yet as we angrily pound away at our keyboards, we have another tab open ordering crap from Amazon getting it cheap and loving that it shows up in 2 days. Yet the mom and pop store down the street had that same crap for sale up until a week ago when they went out of business. #supportsmallbusiness #wearehypocrites I am a small business owner. I’ve spent maybe $500 at Amazon in the last decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 When I read the class warfare stuff I can’t help but draw parallels to the stories of drug lords - how much is enough? They all have the same ending - raking in millions a week wasn’t enough, they needed more. Billions a month wasn’t enough, they needed more. Eventually they catch the eye of the DEA or rivals and they are killed or arrested how many houses is enough? How many cars or private planes? How many luxuries? i don’t begrudge the wealthy for being wealthy, but god damn if they just kept their greed in check the lower classes wouldn’t be pushed to eventually rising up against them. If the people making millions a year simply pushed for helping the rest more (and there’s so many ways they could do it) they’d be able to keep making their millions and not have to ever be concerned about fighting a class war. This never ends well for the wealthy elite. They always lose in the long run. Because eventually the sheer difference in numbers on the two sides lets the lower class topple the entire system. Escobar was revered in Medellin because he threw cash around to the poor. It was a lot to the poor and they liked it. It was chump change to him. His ego eventually ruined him but he understood the value is having the lower class love you. And he realized just how cheap it was to buy that love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 23 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: I am a small business owner. I’ve spent maybe $500 at Amazon in the last decade. I essentially buy nothing from Amazon, but long term from a national policy perspective, this makes no sense. That people should have to not do things in the most efficient manner possible (in terms of time and costs) to prevent unhealthy income distributions is ridiculous. If that's what we have to move to as a country, we are going to be in trouble as a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 46 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I don't agree with most of what CousinsCowgirl is saying but one point I will agree with is how we vote with our dollar. We (the collective) love to piss and moan about the giants like Walmart and Amazon. Yet as we angrily pound away at our keyboards, we have another tab open ordering crap from Amazon getting it cheap and loving that it shows up in 2 days. Yet the mom and pop store down the street had that same crap for sale up until a week ago when they went out of business. #supportsmallbusiness #wearehypocrites Yeah we also love to talk about how life is a struggle while we drive our bmw 3 series, buy the latest iPhone every year, and have 60” flat screens in our house. The wealthy are out if line and need need to come correct, but some of us could use a 6 month vacation to South America or Africa or the Middle East to realize how easy it is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 32 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: I am a small business owner. I’ve spent maybe $500 at Amazon in the last decade. Good job. I said the collective we because not every person will fall into that category but the majority do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I’m not against supporting small businessss but the truth is I hate shopping. Quickly finding and buying from my phone and knowing it’ll be on my doorstep tomorrow, so that I can spend time doing other things, is valuable to me. I even buy most my groceries online. Not things like vegetables and meat, but anything where the quality is standardized - canned and boxed goods, paper towels, toilet paper, etc. hell they even have our shopping habits figured out well enough that for 80% of the items I don’t even have to search for them. They pop up on a suggestion list. Wife swings by on her way home from work and they load the car up. She doesn’t even get out. And they refuse to accept a tip! (We’ve both tried) It’s not a laziness thing because it’s not that I don’t want to do it, it’s that I have better things to do and a 2-income household with 2 young kids leaves very little time for us to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 In pursuit of honest conversation, it should also be noted that Amazon has helped many small businesses by greatly expanding their customer base. There are things that I have bought on Amazon that are made and sold by small businesses that I would have never come across if it weren't for them being listed on Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 4 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Read The NY Times article. I did already, rich people wanting to stay rich is nothing new, Benning. It really is up to us to pass laws that work best for the people and given billionaires the room to help when they want to. There are billionaires that want the system to stay the same and those that don't, the later shows up in the World Economic Fourm's Facebook and Twitter feed on occasion, those ideas need huge backing to make mainstream. Rich people can circumvent our broken congress to do stuff like that if we steer the conversation towards that instead, like how the Netherlands can export almost as much food in value as the US does. What you don't want is the people this article is talking about going to the other extreme and not donating at all. There needs to be a middle ground, why i posted that gif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I did already, rich people wanting to stay rich is nothing new, Benning. It really is up to us to pass laws that work best for the people and given billionaires the room to help when they want to. There are billionaires that want the system to stay the same and those that don't, the later shows up in the World Economic Fourm's Facebook and Twitter feed on occasion, those ideas need huge backing to make mainstream. Rich people can circumvent our broken congress to do stuff like that if we steer the conversation towards that instead, like how the Netherlands can export almost as much food in value as the US does. What you don't want is the people this article is talking about going to the other extreme and not donating at all. There needs to be a middle ground, why i posted that gif. The problem isn't that they donate. Its that they think creating charter schools is the answer to fixing public schools. Not paying taxes to help public schools. You can give money to causes, I will never have problems with that. These rich people are not experts in the problems they want to fix yet we Americans tend to think rich people are geniuses and can solve all our problems. These people destroy things and think giving pennies is enough to fix what they destroyed. They need to be taxed. 43 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: In pursuit of honest conversation, it should also be noted that Amazon has helped many small businesses by greatly expanding their customer base. There are things that I have bought on Amazon that are made and sold by small businesses that I would have never come across if it weren't for them being listed on Amazon. Small businesses are often forced to goto Amazon. And then Amazon notices popular products selling from those small businesses and then sells Amazon labeled versions of those products to undercut them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: The problem isn't that they donate. Its that they think creating charter schools is the answer to fixing public schools. Not paying taxes to help public schools. You can give money to causes, I will never have problems with that. These rich people are not experts in the problems they want to fix yet we Americans tend to think rich people are geniuses and can solve all our problems. These people destroy things and think giving pennies is enough to fix what they destroyed. They need to be taxed. No argument there, im on the extreme of wanting to ban charter schools altogether because of that. Having said that, my point still stands that our laws have to better protect us from these attempts to "help us". And it's not all of them, just have to keep in perspective where we really are with this and what we can do about it, though I've learned to really appreciate you trying to bring attention to stuff like this at minimum. Everytime i see a thread like this, my immediate reaction is what to do about, really doesn't shock me anymore. Just the technician in me, fully aware not everything can be fixed, unfortunately, why i try to bring up reconciliation where i can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: No argument there, im on the extreme of wanting to ban charter schools altogether because of that. Having said that, my point still stands that our laws have to better protect us from these attempts to "help us". And it's not all of them, just have to keep in perspective where we really are with this and what we can do about it, though I've learned to really appreciate you trying to bring attention to stuff like this at minimum. Everytime i see a thread like this, my immediate reaction is what to do about, really doesn't shock me anymore. Just the technician in me, fully aware not everything can be fixed, unfortunately, why i try to bring up reconciliation where i can. Yeah, I definitely want laws changed to stop this. I think that is the ultimate goal. The Tweet thread I shared in hte second post was full of "liberals" who think the Koch brothers are good. I wont say all of them because I do not know all of them, but I would wager its a huge sum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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