Henry Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Cranky, I'm not holding that against him. History is. Historically running QBs don't win Superbowls. The greatest pre-Vick running QB of all time enjoyed his greatest season as a pro when he rushed for 132 yards, the eighth-best and lowest full season rushing total of his career. During the greatest Bronco season in history, 1998, in which the Broncos went 14-2 and Elway was named the superbowl MVP, he rushed for 94 yards, tied for 15th out of his 16 seasons. Since 1990, the only truly mobile QBs to win the SB were Favre, Young, and Elway, and none of them rushed for more than the already stated 300 yards. Maybe Vick is so amzingly amazing that he will break this trend. But the trend exists. And I suspect it does for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Henry Cranky, I'm not holding that against him. History is. Historically running QBs don't win Superbowls. The greatest pre-Vick running QB of all time enjoyed his greatest season as a pro when he rushed for 132 yards, his eighth-best and lowest full season rushing total. During the greatest Bronco season in history, 1998, in which the Broncos went 14-2 and Elway was named the superbowl MVP, he rushed for 94 yards, tied for 15th out of his 16 seasons. Since 1990, the only truly mobile QBs to win the SB were Favre, Young, and Elway, and none of them rushed for more than the already stated 300 yards. Maybe Vick is so amzingly amazing that he will break this trend. But the trend exists. And I suspect it does for a reason. Do you really think so? Steve McNair just barely missed getting a Lombardi Trophy during a year in which he ran for over 300 yards. I'm about to turn on my flame-retardant suit, so bear with me. Historically, a large percentage of highly athletic QBs were denied the opportunity to play QB due to the color of their skin. While each individual player should be judged on their own merits, it would be difficult to dispute who the most mobile QBs in the league today are. I suspect you will find this "trend" to be broken sooner rather than later, and I don't find it to be a big deal in the slightest. It is just one component of a QB's overall game. Would you rather he NOT be able to run when he had to? The Falcons are basically the same team they were last year, save for the addition of a high priced offensive weapon in Peerless Price. They were 9-6-1 last year with Vick in his first full season of NFL action. Before he came back last night, they were 2-10...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Cope The scary part is that Atlanta will probably have a top 5 pick. Add Roy Williams or Kellen Winslow in terms of weapons...watch out. Ryan They already have a good WR in Peerless and a top TE in Crumpler. If they can beef up their defense or improve their O-line, they will be a serious contender. As far as Vick goes; I was disappointed in his passing yesterday, but it was purely because he clearly doesn't have a rhythm with his receivers. He has world-class arm strength and vision, but he needs more playing time; once he can start hitting receivers in stride he really will be unstoppable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Don't worry Todd. I left my flame-thrower at home today. All I can say about that is that Randall Cunningham was still black when he stopped running and went 15-1 and was up for league MVP. I would rather my team win the SB. And teams that win the SB have overwhelmingly had QBs who pass first, pass second, pass third and run fourth. That's that. This does not mean, of course, that I don't think Vick is a factor in the success or failure of the Falcons. He is huge for them, obviously. I love watching him play. He was the only reason I stayed up to watch the Falcons-Panthers. I just don't know if that's enough to win them a ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Henry Don't worry Todd. I left my flame-thrower at home today. All I can say about that is that Randall Cunningham was still black when he stopped running and went 15-1 and was up for league MVP. I would rather my team win the SB. And teams that win the SB have overwhelmingly had QBs who pass first, pass second, pass third and run fourth. That's that. Well said and right on..!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Cunningham should credit Cris Carter and Randy Moss for that amazing season. Remember, even Jeff George looked good with those two to as his starting recievers. Granted, I see no reason why Vick couldn't win a superbowl with his current style. Especially with parity running rampant through the league, none of the teams are as dominant as they were back when Elway and Steve were young. Yet if he continues to play the way he does, and doesn't win a title within 4 seasons he likely never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I'm sure other's have said this as well, but the biggest downside in my opinion with vick besides the obvious injury factor in terms of missing games, is the injury factor taking away his legs. Will Vick still be effective when he can't run? Sure, you can say he has a great arm, he does, there's no doubt about that, but the fact is that EVEN in his passing game, he creates the big plays that he does through his scrambles and the improvisation between Vick and the receivers. I can't see him sitting in the pocket and picking apart a defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by Henry I would rather my team win the SB. And teams that win the SB have overwhelmingly had QBs who pass first, pass second, pass third and run fourth. That's that. Well, yeah, since you restricted it to SUPER BOWLs.... if we included the years before the forward pass was legalized, I would propose you would find the story to be quite different. :laugh: Seriously though, you'll have to pardon me if I am dismissive of ANY stereotype in regards to a team or player's ability to succeed. It wasn't all that long ago that a QB for our own team defied an irrational stereotype about the types of QBs that can win in this league. And the part of this argument that I think is completely missing, is the passing ability of "running" quarterbacks. You act as if a quarterback who is talented at running with the ball cannot therefore, be a high quality passer. The fact of the matter is that the two skills complement each other. Take away Vick's speed, and he still has the strongest arm in the league, and still capable of throwing bullets while releasing the ball from angles other QBs can't even dream of. He played rather efficiently last year, and his running abilities simply AUGMENTED his passing abilities (16 TDs, only 8 interceptions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADF Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 You can have a running QB, a passing QB, a black QB or a white QB and it really doesn't matter. Defense wins championships. If the Bucs had Atlanta's offense from last year, they'd still win the championship. The Falcons offense gained more yards and scored more points than the Bucs. How often does a team with a strong offense but weak defense, win the Super Bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by speedwagon20 No one said the guy doesn't make a difference. He's just not a good QB right now. He's slightly below average at playing QB. Listen, he's electric and athletic. However, if he was the "greatest weapon ever" like this thread makes it sound like, why did Atlanta score 14 offensive points last night? I mean, the Skins scored more than that and they don't have this unstoppable force on their team... Well for one the Falcons O line sucks, two, they had Duckett quite possible the slowest RB ever, three, their best non Vick weapon is Brian Finneran an aging tight end, with no wide receiver corp to speak of (Peerless Price sucks period.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Vick took at bad team, and was a bad holding call away from sending them to the NFC championship last year, his first year starting. This guy will win superbowls. Yes right now he does struggle sometimes passing, oh wait, HES A YOUNG QB THEY ALL DO!!!! You guys are finding all these flaws in his passing skills right now, but he has the arm strength and accuracy to be a great passer. The scar thing here is that right now he's probably the most dominating player in the NFL, and he's not even half as good as he's gonna be yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagles_Legendz Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I think people are missing the point here. Atlanta would still be a sub .500 team this season because their defense has been atrocious. If it doesn't improve, they aren't going to be that good next year either. I like watching Vick as much as the next person, but I got tired of Theisman last night. After EVERY 5 yard run he would be all over Vick talking about how good he is. At one point in the 3rd or 4th quarter, Mike Rucker made a good play at ATL's 30 yardline on third down, which prevented Vick from picking up the first. Theisman said, "You know, if Rucker doesn't make that tackle, I think he's gone." It's a joke how hyped up he is. He's a great athlete, but he ISN'T that great of a QB yet. Just IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljer Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'm with you. It was the Michael Vick, kiss a*s show last night. Enough..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Looks like some people don't really know football or talent, on this board. The Randall Cunningham comparison stinks, wanna know why? Randall went 15-1 well after his physical prime. Even Jeff George looked good that year(which is how he made his way to Washington.) Randall was always capable of great accuracy and had a great arm. But he had two major weaknesses: Reading Ds and his slow and long release. Vick might have the greatest combo of arm/release speed and length in the history of the game. Even if Vick never reads a D like Montana, he can still be a great QB because he throws lasers with an extremely compact motion. That .25-.5 of a second gives him extra time to "read" the D or the route. Vick is, unlike some athletic QBs, very accurate at times. He can place the ball in areas that few, if any, QBs can. He worked on his mechanics for this year but unfortunately got injured. His throwing will be off until he gets a full TC and is healthy. Just look at Pat Ramsey when his foot started bothering him. Everything in his game went bad. Vick will need time to get his throwing down. People dislike or get mad about Vick's hype for a few reasons: 1) "purist" bias against athletic QBs 2) They naturally tend to go against the grain, even when the grain is right 3) They aren't fond of black QBs(though they might have no issue with black RBs, etc) I know people will get mad with #3, but it's true. I've seen Bubby Brister play for YEARS in this league--but I never heard the criticism of him or the endless supply of overhyped or undertalented white QBs that I heard regarding McNair, Culpepper, Cunningham and Vick. To be sure, McNair is now almost beyond criticism, but check on boards and chat rooms last year even--McNair was still being skewered by so-called "fans." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 No one tried to say that Brister was the greatest qb ever. Plenty of White QB's get criticized in the same manner. Peyton Manning is probably THE most criticized QB at this time. There is something on ESPN or The NFL channel or Sports Radio ever day proclaiming him the most over rated qb in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Truth Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Vick is the man and thats the bottom line. He is like The Rock of wrestling, the Barry Bonds of baseball, and the Micheal Jordan of basketball. He gives his team a BIG advantage with him under center. I was playing Madden for the ps2 and my cousin was crying about how it was'nt fair because I was scrambling with Vick he gained a ton of yards, be when he tried to scamble with his QB ( Kurt Warner) LOL he said I was using a cheat because his QB was so much slower than mine. However, Vick has struggled aganist teams with fast defenses last year with fast linebackers. I would like to see him face a fast defensive team this year. To be honest with you, I would like for the skins to have a little more speed at linebacker to go along with L.A. I think it will make a big difference. But like I said Vick is da man right now at QB. He is the fastest QB ever and has one of the best arms, if not the best at the QB position. Thats a Huge advantage for a QB. Imagine if he was with the skins! With the talent we have on offense, DB's will be forced to hold our WR's longer than expected with the scramble ability of Vick. Think about it.... In his first starting career (last year) He took a team with no dominant Wr and a averege group of RB's to the playoffs. The guy is awesome. When is he a free agent?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 History conclusively shows that QBs win championships with their arms and minds, not with their legs. I fail to see how it's being purist, contrarian, and/or racist to suggest that, in the case of Vick, the rest of his game has to catch up to his running ability if he hopes to lead his team to a championship. I haven't seen anyone suggest that he is incapable of developing these championship qualities. He obviously has the arm, but can he develop the intimate knowledge of defenses and running an offensive system at peak efficiency? Who knows? The same question is there with Ramsey, Carr, Harrington, and a host of other unseasoned QBs. The physical tools are unquestioned, but can they learn to be masters of their craft? The better defenses will chew a running QB up. They'll stay disciplined and just wait for the mistake. QBs win championships from the pocket. Vick will be lethal if he ever develops a Young-like pocket presence, because there will be no defense against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 The comment that got me annoyed came when one of Atlanta's defensive ends sacked Delhomme and Theismann insisted that now everyone was "trying harder" because Vick was back. It's laughable. As for the debate about Vick's talents. Of course, if he passed the ball incredibly well, then it wouldn't matter that he can run. I'm not saying that since he can run, he can't pass. What I'm saying is, regardless of his running skills (which happen to be incredible) he's not a very good passer at this point. He could improve, he may not. He throws darts and occassionally puts it on the money. But overall, he's a very inaccurate passer. And that will kill him in games that defenses just take away his running lanes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I really do think Vick will reach that level of being able to use his arm and run when neccessary and not have running as a major component. However just having that running component only enhances his game. Defenses rarely rush upfield on him and in general have to utilize a spy to watch him. If one guy misses on a pass rush he has the ability to take it to the house. With his arm and that "aura" (the guy seems to have a knack for making big plays in big games) he is going to be a winner. Whether it is in 3 years or 10 years when he as to pass all the time he will win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by Ghost Who Talks Looks like some people don't really know football or talent, on this board. The Randall Cunningham comparison stinks, wanna know why? Well, I brought up Cunningham as an example because Todd brought up skin color. You think the initial comment about running QBs not being successful compared to pocket passers doesn't apply to Cunningham? If you say so. So forget Cunningham. Todd brought up Elway and Young. Let's use them. Elway's greatest season of his sixteen year career he rushed for 94 yards. Young's one SB win came during his seventh best rushing year. When I say there's a trend that favors passing QBs over running QBs, I'm not just talking team to team or player to player. It also occurs for players within their own careers. Was Elway a black guy when he lost three superbowls? Did the old white guys in dark smokey rooms tell all the other teams to take a dive in 1994 to prove to Steve Young that he shouldn't run with the ball? No. It wasn't all that long ago that a QB for our own team defied an irrational stereotype about the types of QBs that can win in this league. QBs that were known for running the ball saw the most success when they didn't run so much. That's a simple fact. That I pointed this out somehow makes me a propogator of irrational stereotypes is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Let me think Vick took a weak VT team to the NCAA Championship in his second year, yeah he stinks :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I don't think anyone is saying he stinks. My point was, based on the accolades being thrown down on him during the SNF game, you would think the guy had cured cancer. The fact is he's an unbelievable athlete with the opportunity to become a good NFL QB. But if you watched Sunday Night Football, the announcers would have you think that he was hands-down the best QB to ever throw a football. He's still raw and he can't throw accurately yet. I believe, like most of you, that he will improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Vick is nasty. Any GM in the NFL would give his left nut for Vick, and that's no joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 he can throw accurately...he just needs to work on reading defenses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Noone is saying Vick stinks. I'm just not sure he's on the verge on re-inventing the position yet. Shame on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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