General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[Cool Hwhip]

13 minutes ago, tshile said:

Got involved in the discussion of police not going in. Had to pull some searches up. But here’s the gist:

- police stopped “waiting for backup” in 1999. Im not saying everyone did, but the idea took root then. And it expanded as an “industry standard” over time. 
- not helping victims and going after the shooter only also took place over this time

- you can find numerous interviews with various experts or police chiefs discussing this change and why. Former DC police chief did an interview with 60 minutes back in 2015

 

Unless the reason they waited was that he was contained and they were being careful about it all knowing no one was in danger, this is a giant **** up. 
 

And they’re going to have a hard time explaining why they weren’t following best practices or industry standards (if you will…) that were created in 1999 and by at least 2015 commonly understood, trained, and discussed. 
 

race doesn’t even matter. It’s sheer incompetence. And they’re going to get absolutely crushed for it as this unfolds and people start being accountable. 
 

 

I hope they all lose their jobs tbh.

[Rudechain]

11 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

 

It's not the most scientific thing ever, but earlier today I used that link above to look at 10 year chunks.  70-79, 80-89, 90-99, 00-09, 10-present. I just looked at the dots on the map, like I said, not the most scientific thing ever.  But there's been an increase since the 70s for sure.

 

 

It's disheartening that as a society we have gotten to this point.      Tragedy strikes and all we can do is "thoughts and prayers".    

 

We are better than this.   We are to caught up in pointing fingers, and "gotcha" moments that we can't seem to work together solving problems.     I am sickened by the attitude of our representatives and grandstanding .

[GoCommiesGo]

23 minutes ago, tshile said:

Got involved in the discussion of police not going in. Had to pull some searches up. But here’s the gist:

- police stopped “waiting for backup” in 1999. Im not saying everyone did, but the idea took root then. And it expanded as an “industry standard” over time. 
- not helping victims and going after the shooter only also took place over this time

- you can find numerous interviews with various experts or police chiefs discussing this change and why. Former DC police chief did an interview with 60 minutes back in 2015

 

Unless the reason they waited was that he was contained and they were being careful about it all knowing no one was in danger, this is a giant **** up. 
 

And they’re going to have a hard time explaining why they weren’t following best practices or industry standards (if you will…) that were created in 1999 and by at least 2015 commonly understood, trained, and discussed. 
 

race doesn’t even matter. It’s sheer incompetence. And they’re going to get absolutely crushed for it as this unfolds and people start being accountable. 
 

 

 

The way this is handled changed after Columbine in 99. The after action report is a helluva a read if you have time (Link). 

 

The officers on the scene did exactly what they did a Columbine, and it was wrong. It's even worse because one of the highlighted notes is that the Denver SWAT Team took 45 minutes, that was considered fast. The fact that the small town had a standing SWAT Team but didn't make entry is a huge issue, among many other failures.  

 

The lessons learned section for first responders starts on document page 59, PDF page 84. 

 

--Edit--

If anyone has curiosity AAR reports for many occurrences are available here, IACP Targeted Violence / Active Threat After Action Review.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by GoCommiesGo

[The Sisko]

 

Pretty much says it all.

 

[Llevron]

50 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

 

It's not the most scientific thing ever, but earlier today I used that link above to look at 10 year chunks.  70-79, 80-89, 90-99, 00-09, 10-present. I just looked at the dots on the map, like I said, not the most scientific thing ever.  But there's been an increase since the 70s for sure.

 

 

it’s tripled since the assault weapons ban ended. But saying news coverage has anything to do with the growing trend sounds a lot like the “violence in movies and video games” thing to me personally. 
 

If anything I could see the argument that they want their specific ideologies spread. Like the buffalo guy. And he even had a live stream to his specific audience. But the dude in Texas didn’t have any of that going on so i don’t get why we keep saying the media has anything to do with it. 

[spjunkies]

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

14 minutes ago, Llevron said:

it’s tripled since the assault weapons ban ended. But saying news coverage has anything to do with the growing trend sounds a lot like the “violence in movies and video games” thing to me personally. 
 

If anything I could see the argument that they want their specific ideologies spread. Like the buffalo guy. And he even had a live stream to his specific audience. But the dude in Texas didn’t have any of that going on so i don’t get why we keep saying the media has anything to do with it. 

 

I think the media certainly has something to do with it.  IMO, the school shooting craze started in '99 with Columbine.  I'll never forget where I was, I was on a bus after school headed to play a baseball game when a kid on the team who was listening to the radio heard about it and told everyone what was going on.

 

If you're old enough, you remember the coverage.  Aerial footage from helicopters above the school, kids climbing out of windows...for people of a certain age, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold are names that you don't forget.  And in their coverage of the tragedy, their names and faces were plastered everywhere.  EVERYWHERE.  The still shots from security cameras of them roaming the halls with their guns to their manifesto to how they planned this for several months, the analyzing of every possible angle as to WHY THEY DID THIS (bullied, wanted to get back at the jocks and cool kids) inadvertently made them rock stars.  People also forget that their plan went sideways on them, they wanted to kill more than 500 people; it wasn't just a school shooting they were trying to pull off, they wanted to be ultimate mass murderers on a scale that Tim McVeigh was.  Yeah, Columbine is classified as a school shooting but Harris and Klebold also had bombs ready to go.  

 

It is about mental illness, IMO, partially, as I've said before anyone who wants to do something like this is ****ed in the head.  But it's also about fame and it is also about power...power in the moment of taking lives but also the power of suddenly having a nation's attention when no one cared about them a day before.  I mean, how does a teenager who is bullied and picked on and has no self esteem make a name for himself in the span of a week and go down in history at the same time?  

 

Make no mistake, the media gives that to them hand over fist.  The coverage of Columbine was so...I dunno, intense?  Long?  It seemingly went on for weeks.  And, IMO, every time their names and faces were on TV or on the cover of a magazine or newspaper, it just spoke to a whole bunch of kids who have been bullied and picked on and have a festering rage inside of them and they don't know how to cope with it.  Not long after that, you had the Virginia Tech massacre...talk about a guy who didn't know how to -and more importantly- didn't want to deal with his mental issues.  But also wrote a big manifesto about his hatred for rich people.  He wanted to be known and he made sure EVERYONE knew why he did what he did.

 

I agree that the assault weapon ban ending plays a part here, not long after that Columbine happened. But I think by far and away that the notoriety and attention the media gives these school shooters is a big part of it.  And, of course, the media doesn't want to be culpable.  They want clicks, they want ad revenue, they want ratings.  And they would never, ever admit that they have a role in all of this, too.  The media, in a weird way, is like the NRA and the Republicans in terms of the attitude they have when denying responsibility for anything.  But who are the ones that made Klebold and Harris FAMOUS?

 

But it's between a rock and a hard place, right?  Of course WE all want to know everything all the time.  I remember the Vegas shooting, you got upset with me because I said knowing that guy's motive didn't matter to me.  However, it was inconceivable to you that I didn't want to know.  And I didn't, simply because I think that the media and the 24 hour news cycle and all of the analyzing up and down, left and right just simply gives these people too much power that they don't deserve.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

[visionary]

I remember watching Columbine on cnn as it was happening.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by visionary

[TradeTheBeal!]

Astounding.

 

 

[visionary]

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

12 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

 

 

The focus of the shooting is quickly going from the tragedy that happened to the incompetence surrounding the police officers who responded.  

 

And I hate to say it, but if that ****s up the Republican/NRA message of "the person to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," well, it needs to be done.

[visionary]

I know.  I'm worried that everything will be blamed on the cops.  And it gives the GOP an out.  They'll just say police need to be more aggressive and if they were doing their job, everything would be fine.

Edited May 27, 2022 by visionary

[visionary]

 

[Captain Wiggles]

Before Columbine mass shootings were referred to as someone "going postal". Pfft now there are shipping stores called Goin Postal. #America 😬

[Spaceman Spiff]

17 minutes ago, visionary said:

I know.  I'm worried that everything will be blamed on the cops.  And it gives the GOP an out.  They'll just say police need to be more aggressive and if they were doing their job, everything would be fine.

 

Yeah, but there's mounting evidence to the contrary that good guys with guns don't stop these types of things.  It's only an out if the Democrats don't follow through and keep hammering with proof and evidence.

[tshile]

An adult is capable of understanding this police screw up is a separate issue from the fact these things happen too often. 

[The Sisko]

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

9 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

**** Ted Cruz in the dickhole with one of those little umbrella toothpicks you get in a fruity drink in Cancun.

[visionary]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

An adult is capable of understanding this police screw up is a separate issue from the fact these things happen too often. 

I hope you're right.

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

An adult is capable of understanding this police screw up is a separate issue from the fact these things happen too often. 

An adult is also capable of understanding that more guns will lead to more gun crime…but here we are.

[@DCGoldPants]

Cruz isn't running for re-election this year. Somewhere in his ****ed up mind is how to spin this into a 2024 run for President. Something like 165 days until Election Day. Some folks are betting people will have forgotten about this for the most party.

 

and I think they are right. Until something like this happens and the anger/front page focus is on it up through election day. They are waiting it out. 

 

 

[GoCommiesGo]

This was such a colossal **** up by the police it's amazing. They did everything wrong, ignored lessons learned from other school shootings and just ****ed it up. 

 

A policy failure coupled with a police failure gets you this. Ease of access plus a **** show police force with inadequate training and this is the result. The after action report on this is going to be damning and I hope it gets widely released. Every officer should lose their job, the chief should be gone. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

If I'm a Democrat running against Ted Cruz, I'm making up nicknames for him, Trump-Style.  I ****ing hate Trump, but you gotta hand it to him when he made up derogatory nicknames for his opponents, they stuck.  Like, when he called Marco Rubio "Little Marco" it was all over for that guy.

 

I'd call Ted Cruz "Tone Deaf Ted."