CNN: 2 Ebola patients returning to U.S.

[twa]

you have higher expectations than I Peter, and probably a higher opinion of others.

[PeterMP]

Didn't he also, self quarantine?  She's getting all pissed off cause she's told not to go anywhere.  The thing is, The TX nurse and the MD both traveled and were out in public settings in crowds, etc. and were infected.  

 

She should be more understanding of the quarantine.  Just because her trifling ass ain't showing symptoms now, doesn't mean she wont.  Doesn't mean she will.  As a healthcare worker, I expect her to be more understanding of what's at stake here and play it safe.  

 

I don't know about you, but I've been out and gotten sick and not even known it.  Started running a fever and just thought I was hot.  There was even speculation that the one TX nurse that got on the plane showed symptoms before she got on the plane.  Why risk it?

 

No.

 

He self-quarantined for one day after he started running a fever, and then he want to the hosiptal the next day.

 

He actually reports of feeling "off" before that.

 

What is the risk?

 

Why is it risk?

 

How much of a risk is it?

 

DTMB, I'll double down on the bet for you.

 

Nobody that Dr. Spencer interacted with before going to the hospital gets it AND if the nurse in Maine comes down with it nobody before she goes to the hospital gets it.

 

Want to take it?

you have higher expectations than I Peter, and probably a higher opinion of others.

 

And the answer is to give in to their fear?

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

LOL, not sure why you want to bet people in the thread.  It's not a sports game :/  Some people fear this disease, others fear it while going overboard.  We all have different opinions on what should be done, our expectations and how it should be handled.  

 

I'm not gonna take the over on who gets Ebola lol, that just seems wrong.  But I bet you can bet on it in Vegas.  Seriously.  They have all those weird bets on when and who will die and stuff like that.  

[PeterMP]

LOL, not sure why you want to bet people in the thread.  It's not a sports game :/  Some people fear this disease, others fear it while going overboard.  We all have different opinions on what should be done, our expectations and how it should be handled.  

 

I'm not gonna take the over on who gets Ebola lol, that just seems wrong.  But I bet you can bet on it in Vegas.  Seriously.  They have all those weird bets on when and who will die and stuff like that.  

 

To make the point that nobody here really thinks there is any real risk.

 

Nobody really thinks that anybody is going to get sick from Dr. Spencer before he made it to the hosiptal, despite twa at least trying to suggest that wasn't the case and you suggesting that there is something wrong with asymptomatic people doing things like riding the subway, which Spencer did.

[twa]

 

And the answer is to give in to their fear?

 

yes, to a degree....humoring folk usually calms them

but if you want to assert there is no real risk ya better be prepared for the oops blowback.....if you are a leader

 

btw the qualification of once they get to the hospital illustrates the risk clearly exists

 

I certainly have more faith in most medical people behaving responsibly,but that leaves out quite a few others

[PeterMP]

yes, to a degree....humoring folk usually calms them

but if you want to assert there is no real risk ya better be prepared for the oops blowback.....if you are a leader

 

btw the qualification of once they get to the hospital illustrates the risk clearly exists

 

I certainly have more faith in most medical people behaving responsibly,but that leaves out quite a few others

 

We don't need to claim there is no risk.

 

Hence my pointing out that the only way to ensure NO risk is to prevent them before they come back at all (i.e. kill them on an attempt to come back).

 

The short term risk is very small and longer term it actually increases the risk that we have a serious issue in the US because decreases the chances we are going to get it under control in Africa, which means a longer term chance of it spreading/continuing.

[twa]

 

The short term risk is very small and longer term it actually increases the risk that we have a serious issue in the US because decreases the chances we are going to get it under control in Africa, which means a longer term chance of it spreading/continuing.

 

the harm from a short term quarantine is very small as well, rotating folk in and out of ebola areas w/o quarantine would increase risk here more.

 

the military clearly agrees with me as does ebola lab protocol.

[Bonez3]

So, the 'theory' that quarantine or flight bans will limit treatment in Africa and promote propagation makes sense only in a Vacuum.

How many volunteers from US have gone to Ebola regions in the last 10 months since onset of outbreak?

Further, if MANDATORY quarantine were initiated how much would it cost to compensate health care workers for the extra 21 days? Between Gates, Zuck and Allen over 300 million donated in last Month. You could build Marriott for their quarantine period in Africa.

I'm sorry, but the health care system is not prepared for even a mild outbreak.

The cavalier approach and pure stupidity already demonstrated by the infected healthcare workers is the clearest evidence self monitoring will fail... OVER AND OVER.

I'll be the first to tell you, the best approach is do not let this illness take hold here. Allowing Ebola endemic flights here is a bad decision in my idea. It's not being selfish, it's a world health emergency.

People that are propagating that bans will worsen localized disease need to take that argument out if the vacuum. If Ebola disease become prevalent, you can forget about any aid in Africa.

There are millions of African physicians and funds have been ramped up. Fear is one thing, reality is what it is.

Oh yea... And the 'scientific evidence' that doesn't support quarantine- this is de novo event essentially. Almost all medical literature recognizes the horrific potential of this virus. So, rest your hat on that 'non-scientific' argument if you like. There's not alot if room for error

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

To make the point that nobody here really thinks there is any real risk.

 

Nobody really thinks that anybody is going to get sick from Dr. Spencer before he made it to the hosiptal, despite twa at least trying to suggest that wasn't the case and you suggesting that there is something wrong with asymptomatic people doing things like riding the subway, which Spencer did.

I don't see the harm in quarantining people.  Anyone that has contracted Ebola is asymptomatic until they aren't asymptomatic any longer.  Who's to say that could not happen while they are riding the subway, or mid flight across the country, or at the gym, or any other public setting.  

 

What if they picked up a cold in addition for example.  Were on a long subway ride back home, then their Ebola became symptomatic halfway on the train ride, fever kicked in, etc.  They start sneezing, wiping their nose touching the seat, guard rail, etc.  

 

Yes, it's a far stretch that could happen, but it could happen.  Again, after talking to all my friends in healthcare who said they would self-quarantine themselves and avoid public places if they treated an Ebola patient, just to be on the safe side.  I would expect the ones that actually did not to make such a big deal out of the quarantine.

[PeterMP]

So, the 'theory' that quarantine or flight bans will limit treatment in Africa and promote propagation makes sense only in a Vacuum.

How many volunteers from US have gone to Ebola regions in the last 10 months since onset of outbreak?

 

We've had a doctor that goes to Africa to treat non-Ebola patients on his vacation IN THIS THREAD say that if has to do a 21 day quarantine, he can't go.

 

Now, he's not treating Ebola patients, but that's in this thread and clearly, health care services in Africa need all the help they can get right now.

 

 

Further, if MANDATORY quarantine were initiated how much would it cost to compensate health care workers for the extra 21 days? Between Gates, Zuck and Allen over 300 million donated in last Month. You could build Marriott for their quarantine period in Africa.

 

Or you could buy more equipment/carry out clinical trials on drugs to actually get to the point that it is under control in Africa.

 

And eliminate the need for people to go over there in the first case.

I don't see the harm in quarantining people.

 

Do you have me on ignore?

 

Have you not read anything I've posted over the last few days?

 

This is what fear gets you:

 

"An Oklahoma teacher has agreed to place herself under a 21-day quarantine after she returns from a trip to Africa, even though she is going to a country that has not had any cases of Ebola and is located thousands of miles away from the hot zone in the western portion of the continent."

 

"Nevertheless, as Kim Passoth at KOCO Oklahoma City reported, more than 400 people have signed an online petition asking Blackwell Elementary to keep the teacher away for three weeks upon her return. Three weeks is the time period it takes for Ebola symptoms to appear. Without symptoms, a person is not contagious."

 

"Last week, a group of students attacked two boys in the Bronx who were born in the United States but recently returned from a trip to Senegal. According to the boys' father, the attackers yelled "Ebola" at them. Senegal did have one case of Ebola, but the World Health Organization has since declared it free of the virus."

 

And that's what you are feeding into.

 

There's nothing magic about 21 days.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/28/ebola-rwanda-oklahoma-teacher_n_6062726.html

the harm from a short term quarantine is very small as well, rotating folk in and out of ebola areas w/o quarantine would increase risk here more.

 

the military clearly agrees with me as does ebola lab protocol.

 

The military has excess man power.  The health care services in Liberia do not.

 

American exceptionalism is a joke in this thread.

 

What this thread has is fear coupled with irrationality and ignorance.

 

A normal Ebola infection does not infect the lungs.  The virus is not present in the lungs at a level in terms of amount or location (the deeper in the lungs the less likely something is going to come put, which is why some flus aren't very infectious) that it will can be transmitted.

 

The only infection of the lungs that people have seen in primates is when people have gone out of their way to infect the lungs specifically and EVEN THEN it doesn't get passed to other primates through transmission out of the lungs.

 

So what is going to happen if somebody with a cold and Ebola sneezes on a subway?

The people that are in contact with the sneeze are going to likely get a cold.

[Slateman]

 

There's nothing magic about 21 days.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/28/ebola-rwanda-oklahoma-teacher_n_6062726.html

Except that the virus' incubation period has never been observed to last longer than 21 days.

 

And this is why the CDC needed to come out with actual quarantine guidelines and requirements like the military did for their deploying troops.

 

If you come in to contact with an Ebola patient, quarantine is mandatory. I find it incredibly hard to believe that healthcare professionals will expose themselves to the virus for weeks/months at a time, treating patients that are confirmed to have tested positive for the virus, and then change their mind because there is a 21 day quarantine on the back end.

[SkinInsite]

So Ebola so far has killed 1 person in the US and there's mass hysteria.

 

Meanwhile Measles and Mumps are making a come back because all the anti vaccine idiots and we can't force them to take their shots.

[Slateman]

So Ebola so far has killed 1 person in the US and there's mass hysteria.

 

Meanwhile Measles and Mumps are making a come back because all the anti vaccine idiots and we can't force them to take their shots.

We couldn't force them to take Ebola vaccines either. The difference is that we think of Ebola as a vicious disease that kills people, where as measles and mumps have been long thought neutralized.

[PeterMP]

Except that the virus' incubation period has never been observed to last longer than 21 days.

 

And this is why the CDC needed to come out with actual quarantine guidelines and requirements like the military did for their deploying troops.

 

If you come in to contact with an Ebola patient, quarantine is mandatory. I find it incredibly hard to believe that healthcare professionals will expose themselves to the virus for weeks/months at a time, treating patients that are confirmed to have tested positive for the virus, and then change their mind because there is a 21 day quarantine on the back end.

 

Not true.

 

I've posted the link in this thread last night talking about the transmission time.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

 

Do you have me on ignore?

 

Have you not read anything I've posted over the last few days?

 

And that's what you are feeding into.

 

There's nothing magic about 21 days.

The military has excess man power.  The health care services in Liberia do not.

 

American exceptionalism is a joke in this thread.

 

What this thread has is fear coupled with irrationality and ignorance.

 

A normal Ebola infection does not infect the lungs.  The virus is not present in the lungs at a level in terms of amount or location (the deeper in the lungs the less likely something is going to come put, which is why some flus aren't very infectious) that it will can be transmitted.

 

The only infection of the lungs that people have seen in primates is when people have gone out of their way to infect the lungs specifically and EVEN THEN it doesn't get passed to other primates through transmission out of the lungs.

 

So what is going to happen if somebody with a cold and Ebola sneezes on a subway?

The people that are in contact with the sneeze are going to likely get a cold.

 

The teacher agreed to be quarantined, she didn't get pissy about it at all like the nurse who actually treated Ebola patient's did.  She's not making a big stink about it and would have more room to make an argument about it considering she wasn't anywhere near a hot zone.  

 

But she didn't and the one nurse who was in the thick of it all is.  Which is my point and the take from others on here to my friends and family that work in healthcare.  

 

Ebola is spread through bodily fluids which include saliva and mucus and can be spread via coughing or sneezing.  This is from the CDC website:  http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/qas.html

 

"Although coughing and sneezing are not common symptoms of Ebola, if a symptomatic patient with Ebola coughs or sneezes on someone, and saliva or mucus come into contact with that person’s eyes, nose or mouth, these fluids may transmit the disease."

 

So, while it's rare, theoretically if one had a cold/flu which would trigger the coughing/sneezing/runny nose and their Ebola became symptomatic during that time in a public setting, such as a crowded subway ride, etc. it could potentially spread.  

 

I'm not feeding into anything.  I just don't see the issue with the quarantine.  Obviously, that's a hot topic right now and debate, I'm on the side that doesn't have a problem with it.  

[PeterMP]

Except that the virus' incubation period has never been observed to last longer than 21 days.

 

And this is why the CDC needed to come out with actual quarantine guidelines and requirements like the military did for their deploying troops.

 

If you come in to contact with an Ebola patient, quarantine is mandatory. I find it incredibly hard to believe that healthcare professionals will expose themselves to the virus for weeks/months at a time, treating patients that are confirmed to have tested positive for the virus, and then change their mind because there is a 21 day quarantine on the back end.

 

1.  If what I have time to give is 1 month, and you are going to make stay in quarantine for 21 days, then guess what?

 

2.  People have limited time and money.  Even if I can give you two months, then guess what 21 days of those two months are now going to be spent in quarantine.  We'd be better off with them there for the full 2 months.

[PeterMP]

The teacher agreed to be quarantined, she didn't get pissy about it at all like the nurse who actually treated Ebola patient's did.  She's not making a big stink about it and would have more room to make an argument about it considering she wasn't anywhere near a hot zone.  

 

But she didn't and the one nurse who was in the thick of it all is.  Which is my point and the take from others on here to my friends and family that work in healthcare.  

 

Ebola is spread through bodily fluids which include saliva and mucus and can be spread via coughing or sneezing.  This is from the CDC website:  http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/qas.html

 

"Although coughing and sneezing are not common symptoms of Ebola, if a symptomatic patient with Ebola coughs or sneezes on someone, and saliva or mucus come into contact with that person’s eyes, nose or mouth, these fluids may transmit the disease."

 

So, while it's rare, theoretically if one had a cold/flu which would trigger the coughing/sneezing/runny nose and their Ebola became symptomatic during that time in a public setting, such as a crowded subway ride, etc. it could potentially spread.  

 

I'm not feeding into anything.  I just don't see the issue with the quarantine.  Obviously, that's a hot topic right now and debate, I'm on the side that doesn't have a problem with it.  

 

Pigs actually get an extensive lung infection from Ebola.

 

From things produced by pigs, you can infect monkeys lungs.

 

The monkeys then don't infect one another through the lungs even though their lungs have an extensive infection.

 

http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/121115/srep00811/full/srep00811.html

 

Using tests, the genetic material for Ebola is present in saliva in humans (and monkeys).

 

Nobody has ever demonstrated that there is actually infective virus to any animal much less humans.

 

MAY it happen?  Yes there's some chance it can happen.

 

Is there any reason to think that it can/will happen?

 

No.

 

And that's through the whole infection cycle.  For what he laid out to be an actual concern, you need infective virus to be present early in the process where it is going to come out through the lungs.

 

If we are going to talk about what MAY happen, we have all sorts of problems.

 

The time to showing symptoms MAY go to 100 days or even more.

 

There's no known case of what he is suggesting happening even in monkeys where people have gone out of their way to establish an infection in the lungs.

[Special K]

Except that the virus' incubation period has never been observed to last longer than 21 days.

 

And this is why the CDC needed to come out with actual quarantine guidelines and requirements like the military did for their deploying troops.

 

If you come in to contact with an Ebola patient, quarantine is mandatory. I find it incredibly hard to believe that healthcare professionals will expose themselves to the virus for weeks/months at a time, treating patients that are confirmed to have tested positive for the virus, and then change their mind because there is a 21 day quarantine on the back end.

Why aren't the hundreds of medical professionals who treated Nina Pham and the other American Ebola cases under mandatory quarantines?  Surely they were in close contact with an Ebola patient.

 

Answer, self-monitoring and checking in with state and federal health officials worked.

[ABQCOWBOY]

1.  If what I have time to give is 1 month, and you are going to make stay in quarantine for 21 days, then guess what?

 

2.  People have limited time and money.  Even if I can give you two months, then guess what 21 days of those two months are now going to be spent in quarantine.  We'd be better off with them there for the full 2 months.

 

 

But Peter, don't you think that this is a bit of a Strawman?   I mean, this is true for anybody, at any time, who volunteers or people who suffer from a major medical issue in general. 

 

I get that you have so much time but so what?   You are making a conscious decision, knowing what kind situation you are getting yourself into (I.E. Ebola) and you still decide to volunteer.   You have to know that it could be a situation in which it last longer then 21 days.   There is the possibility that you could contract Ebola and if so, you will be lucky if it's only 21 days.   Over 400 Medical Personnel have contracted Ebola in the fight against the virus and over 250 have died.   These are not statistics that would be unknown to this Nurse.   The whole idea that you only have 21 days and you must get to work and you can't afford more time kinda falls off the table when you stop and think about it IMO.   To me, there is no way that anybody who volunteers is unaware of what the possible ramifications of that decision might be.  If we accept this, then they must know that you could be facing a situation where it will take more time then just what you planned for. 

[twa]

Peter what is a normal ebola infection? 

 

the CDC seems to recognize the transmission by droplets, is the presence in the lungs immaterial(a distraction)?

 

Why aren't the hundreds of medical professionals who treated Nina Pham and the other American Ebola cases under mandatory quarantines?  Surely they were in close contact with an Ebola patient.

 

Answer, self-monitoring and checking in with state and federal health officials worked.

 

are they working under the same conditions as those in Africa?

 

self monitoring and oversight certainly can work ....as long as you isolate upon possible onset like they did with the nurse in NJ and operate in a safe manner (proper protocol and equipment)

 

too many definitions of quarantine seems to be a issue in discussing this

[Special K]

Was Nina Pham working under the same conditions as in Africa?  No.  And she contracted Ebola, so I guess every healthcare professional needs to undergo mandatory quarantine.

I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking volunteers coming back now might be remembering the cases of hundreds of American volunteers who've traveled to West Africa and come back to the US over the last several months and not been mandatorily quarantined and....nothing happened.  

 

They see these strict mandatory quarantines for what they are:  overkill to appease the public.  

[twa]

Was Nina Pham working under the same conditions as in Africa?  No.  And she contracted Ebola, so I guess every healthcare professional needs to undergo mandatory quarantine.

I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking volunteers coming back now might be remembering the cases of hundreds of American volunteers who've traveled to West Africa and come back to the US over the last several months and not been mandatorily quarantined and....nothing happened.  

 

They see these strict mandatory quarantines for what they are:  overkill to appease the public.  

 

and they changed and enforced protocol after her infection....right?

 

The metrics on returning volunteers changed when they began being diagnosed with it....as it should.

 

a abundance of caution is no different than the layers of protection worn by health workers when treating possible ebola patients.

 

do you want gloves and a mask with that or not?

[Bonez3]

We've had a doctor that goes to Africa to treat non-Ebola patients on his vacation IN THIS THREAD say that if has to do a 21 day quarantine, he can't go.

Now, he's not treating Ebola patients, but that's in this thread and clearly, health care services in Africa need all the help they can get right now.

Or you could buy more equipment/carry out clinical trials on drugs to actually get to the point that it is under control in Africa.

And eliminate the need for people to go over there in the first case.

Ok.. One less doctor. Not really swaying me. But how many volunteers in last 10 months? Again, that's my question.

And I fully support resources into treatment. My primary stance on quarantine and bans is to provide time for vaccine and drug trials. We need to buy 6-12 months here in US. We can support fight there with resources without allowing potential spread here.

I get bcl wouldn't go. But in other news, Hickox went for bike ride. Nah, those who are wired to go there aren't cavalier.

Go self monitoring.

[Special K]

and they changed and enforced protocol after her infection....right?

 

The metrics on returning volunteers changed when they began being diagnosed with it....as it should.

 

The "metrics" did not change when Dr. Brantly and Nancy Writebol were brought back to the US.  Nor when the other Ebola-stricken doctor was brought back to Omaha.  The "metrics" began changing when Thomas Duncan came to the US with Ebola, the media went crazy over that story and the public and politicians alike started screaming for travel bans and mandatory quarantines.

But in other news, Hickox went for bike ride. Nah, those who are wired to go there aren't cavalier.

Go self monitoring.

An asymptomatic individual who has twice tested negative for Ebola getting outdoor exercise without direct contact with the public.  I'm not quite seeing any risk to the public with those actions.  Do you expect the quarantined people to stay indoors at all times for 21 days?  

[PCS]

Just watched the video of her talking to reporters,(camped out at her house of course  ).  Good for her. Looked like a nice North Eastern morning.