The House that Bruce Built

[SkinsFTW]

Since Bruce Allen assumed the mantle of GM this off season I am judging him based on this off season.

In fairness its only one year in and so I guess it warrants another year before being replaced. But as GM he's isn't off to a good start.

Mistakes:

o Hiring a HC that appears to have given up on developing the franchise QB after ~20 quarters

i am willing to stomach losing a potential franchise QB IF the HC proves to be a winner

o Retaining of Jim Haslett

o Franchising Orakpo (and the consequent trickle down effect)

o Inability to address/upgrade FS/SS

o Shaun Lauvao

o Andre Roberts

 

Franchising Orakpo then drafting an OLB despite the need at OL.

 

If this team wasnt a 3 ring circus they'd have just let Orakpo walk, draft Murphy if they really liked him and signed some young guys while RG3 learns the offense. Forget Hatcher and Clark and even Jackson. Probably could've picked a safety or guard in the 2nd actually.

[The Wicked Wop]

Since Bruce Allen assumed the mantle of GM this off season I am judging him based on this off season.In fairness its only one year in and so I guess it warrants another year before being replaced. But as GM he's isn't off to a good start.Mistakes:o Hiring a HC that appears to have given up on developing the franchise QB after ~20 quartersi am willing to stomach losing a potential franchise QB IF the HC proves to be a winnero Retaining of Jim Hasletto Franchising Orakpo (and the consequent trickle down effect)o Inability to address/upgrade FS/SSo Shaun Lauvaoo Andre Roberts

The Orakpo decision is the one that hurts in my mind.......but there was no perfect answer there. We made our bed by hoping the line getting after QB's to help the secondary and he was a major piece of thinking that would work. Is easy to criticize now but I honestly feel there was no perfect answer and he and the team knew it........a bunch of articles at the time on the subject that they were going back and forth. The Orakpo deal likely kept us from getting more safety help, but the starting safeties have not been the problem during the key points of the season.

Aside from an additional player or two we might have gotten if the Orakpo deal was not done I don't see this years problems as Allen's......there were just to many needs to fill. Also for as much tough talk as Gruden's done his ability all year to get the most out of all his players has been really disappointing.

[darrelgreenie]

But how much of this is hindsight?

Even at the time I was against re-signing Orapko

[knowledge316]

I wanted Allen to sign Kenny Britt. He signed with Rams for 1yr $1.5M with $550,000 guaranteed. He would've given the size at the WR position that's been missing for so long. 

[Mocountyskins]

If Dan can fire Vinny then he can fire Bruce. Please Dan just do it.

[MusicCitySkin]

Daniel doesn't know how to hire a GM, so firing Bruce will probably accomplish little--lest Dan actually get lucky. I'm convinced now more than ever that the owner sets the tone for the overall state of a franchise. 

[nfl guru]

If Dan can fire Vinny then he can fire Bruce. Please Dan just do it.

 

 

Daniel doesn't know how to hire a GM, so firing Bruce will probably accomplish little--lest Dan actually get lucky. I'm convinced now more than ever that the owner sets the tone for the overall state of a franchise. 

 

Actually, Vinny "resigned".  Mike Jones was on the radio the other day, he gave less than a 5% chance Bruce hires a gm...dark times ahead indeed

[Voice_of_Reason]

Actually, Vinny "resigned".  Mike Jones was on the radio the other day, he gave less than a 5% chance Bruce hires a gm...dark times ahead indeed

I'm not sure that Mike Jones has any inside information, it's just his opinion.

 

That said, it's my opinion as well.  But what I could see them doing is filling the position that Morocco Brown left open.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Daniel doesn't know how to hire a GM, so firing Bruce will probably accomplish little--lest Dan actually get lucky. I'm convinced now more than ever that the owner sets the tone for the overall state of a franchise. 

I don't trust Dan to make the hire of a true GM who knows how to put together a roster.  

 

I DO trust Allen to do that.  He knows enough people around the league, I would trust him to make a good hire.  

 

There's no question that the owner sets the tone.  But at some point, after 15 years of mostly losing, I think Dan will eventually figure out that he's part of the problem.

 

I have also said earlier in this thread, (and why I started it) that this team is NOT Dan Snyder's team.  It's Bruce Allen's team.  

 

All of the moves of significance have Allen's fingerprints all over them.  The "Snyder Way" would not have had a slow start to FA, and would probably not have included a trade down and selection of an under-athletic OLB, and 2 OL in the third round.  

 

If Dan was truly the one making the decisions, I have to imagine they would have thrown boatloads of dollars at Jon, and gotten the elder Gruden brother.

 

While I think Dan has culpability, I think his culpability has less to do with choosing players and coaches, and more about coddling certain players because he likes them.  

I wanted Allen to sign Kenny Britt. He signed with Rams for 1yr $1.5M with $550,000 guaranteed. He would've given the size at the WR position that's been missing for so long. 

WR is not even in the top 20 of the issues that this team.

[RandyHolt]

It's not a house. It's a boat

 

[Stormy]

I don't trust Dan to make the hire of a true GM who knows how to put together a roster.  

 

I DO trust Allen to do that.  He knows enough people around the league, I would trust him to make a good hire.  

 

There's no question that the owner sets the tone.  But at some point, after 15 years of mostly losing, I think Dan will eventually figure out that he's part of the problem.

 

I have also said earlier in this thread, (and why I started it) that this team is NOT Dan Snyder's team.  It's Bruce Allen's team.  

 

All of the moves of significance have Allen's fingerprints all over them.  The "Snyder Way" would not have had a slow start to FA, and would probably not have included a trade down and selection of an under-athletic OLB, and 2 OL in the third round.  

 

If Dan was truly the one making the decisions, I have to imagine they would have thrown boatloads of dollars at Jon, and gotten the elder Gruden brother.

 

While I think Dan has culpability, I think his culpability has less to do with choosing players and coaches, and more about coddling certain players because he likes them.  

WR is not even in the top 20 of the issues that this team.

Why would you trust Bruce Allen to hire a competent, outside, independent GM with a pedigree in personnel? Nearly every move he's made since acquiring the formal title of GM has involved either retaining coaches he's close to, hiring coaches based on familiarity over merit, or retaining guys in failed positions throughout the F.O. and staff because he's apparently comfortable with them.

 

The fact that "he knows enough people around the league" is exactly the problem, and should in no way be comforting. I would like for Bruce to get it right, and have nothing against him personally, but frankly nearly his every move so far smacks of nepotism, good old boy, cronyism over sound philosophy and meritocracy. Worst of all, he apparently doesn't even REALIZE that there is a need for a GM with personnel skills, fresh blood amongst the coaches on the defensive side of the ball, or new eyes running the scouting department. How any of these apparent facts create trust in his ability to hire, or even see the need to hire, the right GM is beyond me. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by Stormy

[Voice_of_Reason]

Why would you trust Bruce Allen to hire a competent, outside, independent GM with a pedigree in personnel? Nearly every move he's made since acquiring the formal title of GM has involved either retaining coaches he's close to, hiring coaches based on familiarity over merit, or retaining guys in failed positions throughout the F.O. and staff because he's apparently comfortable with them.

This is a good point. I trust him mainly because he's been in and around the NFL his entire life, knows what good teams look like, and probably knows every personnel guy in the league just through his network.

I trust him to find a GM more than I trust Snyder, who'd have a very limited network. Owners in general don't network with personnel geeks.

And I trust him because he's all we've got, apart from Snyder.

The alternatives are:

1. Dan picks the GM to work for Bruce. That's bad on a lot of levels.

2. Dan fires Bruce and hired one of his close circle to be the president and GM. That's bad too.

I'll take Bruce as president and allow him to pick the GM as the best possible option.

[Stormy]

This is a good point. I trust him mainly because he's been in and around the NFL his entire life, knows what good teams look like, and probably knows every personnel guy in the league just through his network.

I trust him to find a GM more than I trust Snyder, who'd have a very limited network. Owners in general don't network with personnel geeks.

And I trust him because he's all we've got, apart from Snyder.

The alternatives are:

1. Dan picks the GM to work for Bruce. That's bad on a lot of levels.

2. Dan fires Bruce and hired one of his close circle to be the president and GM. That's bad too.

I'll take Bruce as president and allow him to pick the GM as the best possible option.

Fair enough on all fronts. He actually is the best of our bad options for landing a credible GM, which is worrisome.

[Murphs56]

This is so disrespectful to the fans, what a clown of a GM.

Can't wait to hear the next BMitch tirade about him.

 

We deserve more. We deserve to know where the organization went wrong, where we are heading, what's the plan. Anything at this point.  The fan base is hurting and he chooses to completely avoid the situation. It's irresponsible. Even the Jets and the mess they are, Idzik still  at least had the guts to speak

[Voice_of_Reason]

The HC we hired should have been asked and held accountable to one question first and foremost. Can you develop Griffin? If the answer is yes then understand that you are tied to him.

Griffins success/failure is your success/failure.

So do your due diligence on Griffin all our film and staff coaches are an open to you. Fund out as much as you can. If you want the job you have full control and can do whatever you like. But Griffin's develop is tantamount.

I wanted to respond to this specifically.

I don't think that's a reasonable approach in a coaching search. You can't turn over your practice and game film and make coaches available to candidates, because you have multiple candidates, and all but 1 will not get the job. You've just given the rest a lot of insider info that you'd probably rather not have outside the organization. (The counter to that argument is that the organization leaks more than the Titanic, so it's going to get out anyway, so who cares?)

As far as hiring a coach and then holding him responsible for the development of Griffin, there is no coach worth a damn that would take that deal. Not without knowing Griffin and what exactly went wrong last year. The other thing is that outside of the 'Skins organization, Mike and Kyle have had pretty good reputations for developing QBs, and any incoming coach would have at least some degree of pause given how Griffin played (discounting everything other than the on-field performance) under two well respected coaches.

So I think if you went into the search saying, "Your primary job is to develop Griffin, and your success is tied to his success" I think that you'd eliminate most of the candidates, and end up with somebody like Zorn, who would take any job.

Ultimately, you have to hire a coach who you think can coach the team not just for this QB, but hopefully for 10-15 years in the future, so the current group of players are less relevant.

Any coach who comes in is going to want to be able to do his own evaluation, and after working with the players on the team, figure out who are the guys who he thinks he can build around, and who are not.

I REALLY think that when Gruden came in, the entire organization, probably Snyder, Allen, and the other offensive coaches who were retained, told Gruden that Griffin was far ahead of where he actually was, and that there wasn't a clue as to how far Griffin had to go to be developed as a well-rounded passer.

And while I think Gruden had an inkling early, which is why they went out and signed McCoy, which seemed like an odd move at the time, I don't think they really knew until training camp. Don't forget, as a first time HC, I don't think there were ANY practices before FA opened, and only 1 mini-camp before the draft.

I'm on record saying that I really, really hope that Griffin, Gruden and Allen can figure out some way to make the relationship tenable, and that as Griffin watches McCoy operate the offense more efficiently than he was, he understands what he needs to do during the off-season to re-win the job back. I'll take a super-motivated Griffin, with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to prove himself to his coaches and the fans. I'm not sure it's possible. But that's my hope. Griffin is clearly the most talented QB the 'Skins have had, probably ever, if not, at least since Sonny. And it would really suck to have him wash out quite as quickly and spectacularly as he did.

Here's where I think Allen has complete culpability (and you and I agree on this): Allen should NEVER have allowed Gruden to be the HC/OC/Playcaller/QB coach. Because while McVay has the OC title, it's Gruden's offense, and Gruden is mentoring McVay as an OC. So, essentially, Gruden is the OC. That should never happen. Allen needed to make sure that Gruden could just be the HC. It's a big enough job by itself, especially for a first time HC. I like McVay, and maybe it's ok if he's the OC, but then bring in another QB coach who has a lot of experience to work specifically with the QBs, and knows Gruden's system.

Absent that, I don't really blame Allen for the Griffin debacle.

I do hold him accountable for a complete mis-match in offensive personnel. Signing Orakpo to a franchise tender and then drafting ANOTHER damn OLB. Not getting an immediate upgrade at RT and either Guard position. (Luavao? Please.) And completely wiffing on the safety position AGAIN.

[Boss_Hogg]

We deserve more. We deserve to know where the organization went wrong, where we are heading, what's the plan. Anything at this point. The fan base is hurting and he chooses to completely avoid the situation. It's irresponsible. Even the Jets and the mess they are, Idzik still at least had the guts to speak

He's probably busy planning the next pancake social.

[theTruthTeller]

We deserve more. We deserve to know where the organization went wrong, where we are heading, what's the plan. Anything at this point.  The fan base is hurting and he chooses to completely avoid the situation. It's irresponsible. Even the Jets and the mess they are, Idzik still  at least had the guts to speak

By May, the trees will be full of leaves, the ladies will be wearing short skirts, and the fan base will be wondering how we possibly could have gotten Marcus Mariota for only 2 firsts, a second, Snydie's yacht and a cheerleader swap with the Jets.  

[darrelgreenie]

Gonna break this response down to a couple posts.

I don't think that's a reasonable approach in a coaching search. You can't turn over your practice and game film and make coaches available to candidates, because you have multiple candidates, and all but 1 will not get the job. You've just given the rest a lot of insider info that you'd probably rather not have outside the organization. (The counter to that argument is that the organization leaks more than the Titanic, so it's going to get out anyway, so who cares?)

As far as hiring a coach and then holding him responsible for the development of Griffin, there is no coach worth a damn that would take that deal. Not without knowing Griffin and what exactly went wrong last year...

You contradict yourself here first you say 'You can't turn over your practice and game film and make coaches available to candidates' but then you turn around and say 'Not without knowing Griffin and what exactly went wrong last year'.

First the coaching candidates already have access to game film. Some candidates like Jim Caldwell for example brought with him a compiled tape of all Matt Staffords throws and had notes and a presentation on how to get Stafford to improve. We can quibble over how much access is right but the point is to give the candidates as much information as is reasonable to ensure the enter this venture with eyes open.

I think any HC worth a damn would realize that the development of a franchise/potential franchise QB is the biggest task IF they are being hired based on their 'QB guru' status. All I am saying is a good GM makes sure this task is spelled out clearly so there is no confusion. This part of the interview conversation ensures the QBs already within the franchise aren't ran through at an alarming rate and the potential franchise QB is given more then 4 games besides being passed over.

-Side note. Everyone here likes to pile on failed players/coaches this regimes churns through and Zorn is an easy target. But despite being saddled with Vinnie and an actively meddling Dan with a talented deprived roster he actually had the same record as Mike Shanahan at the point Zorn was fired AND coached Jason Campbell, Jason freakin Campbell to point where not only did Campbell improve but actually grew into being a league average WCO QB.

[Skins Wingman]

we had a better winning % with vinny cerrato than bruce allen.. let that soak in.

[Probos]

Franchising Orakpo then drafting an OLB despite the need at OL.

 

If this team wasnt a 3 ring circus they'd have just let Orakpo walk, draft Murphy if they really liked him and signed some young guys while RG3 learns the offense. Forget Hatcher and Clark and even Jackson. Probably could've picked a safety or guard in the 2nd actually.

 

Agreed.  It's the continued notion/delusion that this team is a few players away from being a true contender that lead to the offseason decsions they love to make regarding keeping, letting go, signing FAs, drafting, etc.  Just a terribly run organization. 

 

Accept that the team stinks and don't be afraid to say "rebuild". 

 

The culture needs to change,...plain and simple.  I believe it won't happen with Allen at the helm and I fear Gruden, due to stepping into such a horrible situation, will fail as well. 

 

I WANT A REAL GM!!!!!!!!!!!!

[darrelgreenie]

Ultimately, you have to hire a coach who you think can coach the team not just for this QB, but hopefully for 10-15 years in the future, so the current group of players are less relevant.

Of course you have to hire a HC that can coach the team. (and btw how would you rate JG in thus far?) But, yeah of course you're creating a false dichotomy its not an either or proposition. When you hire a HC that is considered a QB guru you expect him to coach the entire team AND work their magic with QBs. Just as if you hire Pete Carrol you expect them to coach the team but you expect him to work his magic on defense.

 

I REALLY think that when Gruden came in, the entire organization, probably Snyder, Allen, and the other offensive coaches who were retained, told Gruden that Griffin was far ahead of where he actually was, and that there wasn't a clue as to how far Griffin had to go to be developed as a well-rounded passer.

I disagree but even IF this was true its a HUGE mistake that reeks of lack of preparation on both sides. A HC that didn't know how to evaluate talent in his area of expertise and a GM that didn't give the candidate access to make an informed assessment.

 

I'm on record saying that I really, really hope that Griffin, Gruden and Allen can figure out some way to make the relationship tenable

Despite the rhetoric about Griffin still being in their plans. Judging from Jay's own words and demeanor towards Griffin vs that of the rest of the team I would guess that Griffin days in Washington are over.

 

..And it would really suck to have him wash out quite as quickly and spectacularly as he did.

Quickly? Sure. Spectacularly? Hardly.

 

Here's where I think Allen has complete culpability (and you and I agree on this): Allen should NEVER have allowed Gruden to be the HC/OC/Playcaller/QB coach. Because while McVay has the OC title, it's Gruden's offense, and Gruden is mentoring McVay as an OC. So, essentially, Gruden is the OC. That should never happen. Allen needed to make sure that Gruden could just be the HC. It's a big enough job by itself, especially for a first time HC. I like McVay, and maybe it's ok if he's the OC, but then bring in another QB coach who has a lot of experience to work specifically with the QBs, and knows Gruden's system.

That's a pretty big miss. Building a staff is the most important aspect of a regime. And Gruden had more help with the passing as an OC in Cinci then he had here as a 1st year HC, that's terrible. Who knows maybe if Griffin had Ken Zampesee, the vet QB coach in Cinci, maybe Griffin and the other QBs would have more time to work on QBs stuff while Jay was working on a million other HC and OC duties.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Gonna break this response down to a couple posts.

You contradict yourself here first you say 'You can't turn over your practice and game film and make coaches available to candidates' but then you turn around and say 'Not without knowing Griffin and what exactly went wrong last year'.

I think you misunderstood, or I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to contradict myself. What I meant when I said "not without knowing Griffin" really meant somebody who had worked with him in the past, ie: Briles. If I was Briles, or one of the Baylor assistants. If I was one of them, I'd have a good understanding of what Griffin could do, his personality, limitations, and would feel somewhat more comfortable deciding having my fate tied to his.

 

First the coaching candidates already have access to game film. Some candidates like Jim Caldwell for example brought with him a compiled tape of all Matt Staffords throws and had notes and a presentation on how to get Stafford to improve. We can quibble over how much access is right but the point is to give the candidates as much information as is reasonable to ensure the enter this venture with eyes open.

I was specifically referring to your post where you said you would give the candidate full access and practice film. Which no candidate would have. If Gruden didn't look at film on Griffin before the interview, and make some type of a judgement, then shame on him, and shame on Allen for not holding him to that standard. I would expect any coaching candidate to at least have looked at the game film.

I was strictly responding to the practice film and full-access part of your original quote. If I mis-read or mis-interpreted, then I apologize.

 

I think any HC worth a damn would realize that the development of a franchise/potential franchise QB is the biggest task IF they are being hired based on their 'QB guru' status. All I am saying is a good GM makes sure this task is spelled out clearly so there is no confusion. This part of the interview conversation ensures the QBs already within the franchise aren't ran through at an alarming rate and the potential franchise QB is given more then 4 games besides being passed over.

I agree to a point. However, if I'm a coaching candidate, and the GM says, "look, you're being hired to make QB X into a franchise guy," and I haven't worked with QB X, I'm immediately passing on the job, regardless of anything else. Because there's no way that I'm going to be tied to somebody else's QB choice, without having my own ability to evaluate and determine if he's going to be able to do it. Especially a QB coming off an average season, and a second knee replacement.

 

-Side note. Everyone here likes to pile on failed players/coaches this regimes churns through and Zorn is an easy target. But despite being saddled with Vinnie and an actively meddling Dan with a talented deprived roster he actually had the same record as Mike Shanahan at the point Zorn was fired AND coached Jason Campbell, Jason freakin Campbell to point where not only did Campbell improve but actually grew into being a league average WCO QB.

Zorn was probably a top 5 QB coach, and if he'd just stayed a QB coach for his entire career, he'd probably be much better off. He also seemed like a good dude, if not a little quirky.

And he actually might have been a reasonable HC if he wasn't given OC, Playcalling and QB coach responsibilities as well.

[darrelgreenie]

..I was specifically referring to your post where you said you would give the candidate full access and practice film.......I was strictly responding to the practice film and full-access part of your original quote. If I mis-read or mis-interpreted, then I apologize.

...So do your due diligence on Griffin all our film and staff coaches are an open to you. Fund out as much as you can. If you want the job you have full control and can do whatever you like. But Griffin's develop is tantamount.

 

No worries, but you were the one that spoke of practice film. I am suggesting doing exactly what you claim somehow isn't possible i.e. allowing the candidates to find out as much as is reasonable to make an informed decision about Griffin.

 

I agree to a point. However, if I'm a coaching candidate, and the GM says, "look, you're being hired to make QB X into a franchise guy," and I haven't worked with QB X, I'm immediately passing on the job, regardless of anything else. Because there's no way that I'm going to be tied to somebody else's QB choice, without having my own ability to evaluate and determine if he's going to be able to do it. Especially a QB coming off an average season, and a second knee replacement.

But you're not being hired to "make" a franchise QB. You're being hired to coach the team and develop our potential franchise QB (along with the other QBs). And prior to your decision we would grant you the ability to evaluate/determine as best as possible within reason. And if you would pass on the job then no harm no foul; eventually a HC like Harbaugh, Caldwell (or McCarthy) will come in and embrace the development of the QBs we have in house. That when you sign-on for the job you're motivated to make the relationship work and give it more then ~20 quarters before giving up.

Edited December 4, 2014 by darrelgreenie

[Voice_of_Reason]

DG, the exact quote of yours I was referring to was "Griffins success/failure is your success/failure. So do your due diligence on Griffin all our film and staff coaches are an open to you. Fund out as much as you can."

Given that you said "all our film and coaches" I assumed you meant more than just game film available to all coaches.

Sorry if I assumed something you didn't say,

[Voice_of_Reason]

Of course you have to hire a HC that can coach the team. (and btw how would you rate JG in thus far?) But, yeah of course you're creating a false dichotomy its not an either or proposition. When you hire a HC that is considered a QB guru you expect him to coach the entire team AND work their magic with QBs. Just as if you hire Pete Carrol you expect them to coach the team but you expect him to work his magic on defense.

To answer your question, I'd give Gruden at the current time in coaching the entire team a D- trending towards an F. Because there is no single part of the team that is performing well (minus Tres Way, and when a punter is your shining star, it's a very dark night), and all the PR blunders.

I guess what my overall point is is that Gruden should not have been hired because he's a QB guru. It's one of those things in most businesses: What you're good at and what get's you promoted won't be what you need to be good at to succeed at the next level. This is actually one of the reasons why I was hoping we'd hire a defensive-minded coach, and then get an offensive staff to deal with Griffin and the offense.  

 

I wouldn't hire a HC with the understanding that it's his primary job to develop the QB. I would hire a HC who can coach the entire team, and then hire an offensive staff, and allow them to figure out who the best QB on the team is. And figure out how to use that player best. Now, when you give up what the 'Skins gave up for Griffin, sure, he gets the benefit of the doubt. But you can't hang a previous coach's mistake on a new coach. You have to give him the opportunity to evaluate, and find out if you have a diamond or a turd. Shrug.

 

I disagree but even IF this was true its a HUGE mistake that reeks of lack of preparation on both sides. A HC that didn't know how to evaluate talent in his area of expertise and a GM that didn't give the candidate access to make an informed assessment.

I think it was a HUGE mistake and goes to another point where I think this whole coaching search was a farce, that Gruden had the job in December, and that everybody just assumed that it was Mike and Kyle and a recovering knee that caused Griffin to under-perform last year.

 

Despite the rhetoric about Griffin still being in their plans. Judging from Jay's own words and demeanor towards Griffin vs that of the rest of the team I would guess that Griffin days in Washington are over.

I really hope you're wrong. We'll see. I might be wrong. But I really hope that they can figure out how to make this work.

 

That's a pretty big miss. Building a staff is the most important aspect of a regime. And Gruden had more help with the passing as an OC in Cinci then he had here as a 1st year HC, that's terrible. Who knows maybe if Griffin had Ken Zampesee, the vet QB coach in Cinci, maybe Griffin and the other QBs would have more time to work on QBs stuff while Jay was working on a million other HC and OC duties.

Based on the fact that Allen F-ed up the entire offensive coaching staff, I give him an F grade for the year.

If he'd gotten that right, and still screwed everything else up, I'd be almost inclined to say it would be a C, or a C-