No Shanahan doesn't deserve a free pass because of the cap penalty

[Commander PK]

Haynesworth acted like a spoiled child for sure, but Im not sure thats what caused Vinney to get axed. The chance to get Mike S. was the main reason. I have said before that hiring Mike S. was a good move at the time even at GM/EVP. But I thought he surely would have learned from his mistakes in Denver. It's time we move forward and hire a real GM imo. Not a numbers cruncher like Allen or Smith. If we see Slowik promoted to DC, then I will know for sure Mike hasn't learned ****ing thing.

 

Hail

 

No Haynesworth didn't get Vinny sacked.  I think "sacks and stuff" got sacked mainly due to his performance.  What I meant was that Haynesworth was the final nail in the coffin of Snyder doing things the old way.  Haynesworth was an all around disaster for this team that we are still paying for.   

 

I wonder, for you and others that share your opinion...what would it take for you to get behind retaining Shanahan.  Is there anything that could save him in your eyes at this point?

 

If you trade Haynseworth, the new team takes on his salary. He becomes a 3 year, 16 mil contract for that team (plus some other years that were never going to be paid anyway) which is a very attractive contract given what he was commanding on the market. The dead cap we were left was the 4 mil proration on the SB plus the 21 mil= $25 million.

 

Unless something else came to light, I believe there were no interested parties for Haynesworth anyway.  Based off my memories of the situation at the time.  You got the sense that the rest of the league wanted the Skins to bask in the epic fail of Haynesworth for a while.

[goskins10]

Just a problem with your haynesworth premise, even if teams did want to trade for him, a trade would have accelerated his guaranteed money to a cap hit that year, thereby still giving us the very same problem of being over the spirit of the cap as we got ourselves in by restructuring him.

We were screwed either way. Even in retrospect shanahan's way may have been the best way. Give him a chance to reform and then trade him away when he doesn't.

 

Glad to see this posted (my apologies to anyone else who brought up this point). As far as the entire CAP thing, yes MS and BA took a shot at getting out early. However, had they done nothing we would still be in CAP trouble. My problem is not that we were penalized it's that many other teams did the same thing and did not get penalized. This was directed at Snyder and Jones for driving player salaries higher than other owners wanted. In the end, without the restructuring we would have been CAP light for several years including last year and the year before.

 

The one thing he could have done was release him before the additional bonus hit which would have saved some money. But the bulk of what we owed would still have been owed, same with Hall.

[steve09ru]

1 word - collusion. Doesn't matter if they were told not to, if all owners told a team not to win would they penalize them if they did? "We warned you not to win". I see that going over well. I don't blame them at all, they did nothing wrong. Even you agree with that so why argue around stupid alternatives when nothing was truly done wrong.

[goskins10]

They could have cut him in 2010 without any penalty. Or traded him, which was the smart course.

One more time, 2010 was an uncapped year. If they traded or cut him that year the bonus proration would have accelerated into 2010, and "counted" against a cap that didn't exist.

 

 

Sorry, but that is just not true. If the money was not guaranteed you would be right. However, the largest part of that contract was guaranteed (TY Mr/ Cerrato). The teams were warned to treat the "uncapped" year as a capped year as there would be repercussions. If in a capped year, you cut a player with guaranteed money, as you said that money becomes due immediately and counts against that years CAP (see cowpukes cannot release Romo sits to pee for at least 3 to 4 yrs).

 

Had they simply released Haynesworth the guaranteed money in his contract unpaid would have been due and would count as the salaries paid for that season. regardless or how those monies got moved into that salary year, those are the totals that were used to punish us for going over the "CAP" in an "unCAPed" year, making the "unCAPed" year, effectively a CAPed year. We still would have been penalized. As I have said before, my problem is not with the penalty as much as others were not nailed. it was a direct attack on Snyder and Jones for driving up player salaries.

 

This is why these big guaranteed contracts for people like Flacco and Romo sits to pee are tying them to their team and they cannot be released or traded until near the end of their contract no matter how bad the team may want to unload them due to the massive CAP hit (unless someone assumes the guaranteed money). I believe It will force a change in the entire CAP system by the end of this decade. Many teams will find themselves unable to make any moves to improve their team because 50% of their CAP money will be tied up in guaranteed money to 2 or 3 players. It should be interesting to see.

[Thinking Skins]

I think kicker is microcosm of this. Novak, Suisham, Gano all doing well with other teams now. But fans and then coaches did not have the patience to see them through. Booing at games on a missed FG didn't help either. Now they all want them back, and despite Forbath's potential there are some already wanting him replaced.

I was definitely in Gano's camp. He was somebody with a strong leg who was a victim of circumstance. He did miss a lot late, but a lot of his misses were due to bad holds or bad snaps or just being blocked.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Despite a thoroughly detailed, non biased OP; despite this being an Internet message board, ergo on the WWW which contains all the info in the OP from countless different sources; folk still miss the facts on this by the proverbial Country Mile. 

 

This place never ceases to amaze. 

 

Hail. 

[Tyron Biggums]

 

 

I wonder, for you and others that share your opinion...what would it take for you to get behind retaining Shanahan.  Is there anything that could save him in your eyes at this point?

 

 

Oh yeah. I honestly would like for Mike S. to be retained as HC. He is a pretty good HC IMO. We have to get a real GM, but I am not holding my breath that he would give up the GM/EVP titles.

 

Hail

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

.....

I wonder, for you and others that share your opinion...what would it take for you to get behind retaining Shanahan.  Is there anything that could save him in your eyes at this point?

.....

 

Not really. 

 

4 years in and playing as badly if not worse than the team he inherited. FOUR years in, And a real possibility it could cost us a guy I've waited a lifetime for. 

 

What difference would another 2 or 3 wins make to that overall picture?

 

Hail. 

[Commander PK]

What difference would another 2 or 3 wins make to that overall picture?

 

Hail. 

 

2 or 3 wins could mean the team hasn't given up on him.  Could mean a lot for the big picture.

[chipwhich]

Not really. 

 

4 years in and playing as badly if not worse than the team he inherited. FOUR years in, And a real possibility it could cost us a guy I've waited a lifetime for. 

 

What difference would another 2 or 3 wins make to that overall picture?

 

Hail. 

 

They aren;t worse than before he got here.

[Commander PK]

Oh yeah. I honestly would like for Mike S. to be retained as HC. He is a pretty good HC IMO. We have to get a real GM, but I am not holding my breath that he would give up the GM/EVP titles.

 

Hail

 

so basically, if he checks his ego and gets back to what made him great...ok.  lol

 

I'm not sure I agree with that aspect.  For me, the one big thing that must change is the defensive side of the ball.  Far and away that has  been our biggest problem over the last two seasons.  The offense is also struggling now, but I am willing to put most of the onus for that on RG3's rehab and lack of off-season.  The defense has never really shown anything. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

2 or 3 wins could mean the team hasn't given up on him.  Could mean a lot for the big picture.

 

Looks like the entire offense already has judging on last Monday night.

They aren;t worse than before he got here.

 

They most certainly aren't any better as we currently stand right here, right now. 

 

Hail. 

[FuriousD]

Fat Al was playable just the year before. To say he was unplayable, /discussion???

 

Perfect was building a successful defense, or trading him. Perfection is not overseeing a playable player, and rendering him unplayable.

 

At what expense are we willing as fans to say it was the correct move though. 5 years with a lame duck defense is acceptable... maybe 10 is cool because we really showed Al. We all laughed at his special training camp olympics.

 

A big part of the entire drama was moving to the 3-4. That is the issue at its root. Mike let him know before camp he was a nose, and the drama drama took high stage. 

 

In the end, Mike is graded on wins and losses. Take his personal vendettas into play when grading him, and set yours aside. At least, that is what I try to do.

 

Fat Al was not running the prison. He just had the biggest cell. Mike wanted that cell empty, even if it meant overcrowding / disaster in the prison yard. It was his priority and today, THIS, is the result.

 

I am not defending Al at all. I am just saying Mike and any and all moves he makes on D, usually result in failure. I refuse to call our defense a success and the root of grading it starts with mike actions on day 1, moving to a 3-4 and trying to shoehorn fat al to nose.

 

Part of being a coach, is managing ego's. Is it not?

What is it with the revisionist history?  I think there should be a moratorium and any attempts until a period of 7-10 years has passed otherwise memories are just too fresh!

 

Fat Al was playable?  Do you remember that play against the Eagles?  Good Lord...

 

There are too many players busting their asses every week, every day and every play to let one lowlife like Haynesworth corrupt and contaminate the system.  Almost every week coach says something about playing the players that give the team the best chance to win or trying to put the team in the best position to win.  Where the hell would Haynesworth fit into that plan?  Playing him and letting the world watch him take a dive whenever he felt like it would have been far more damaging to the team in the long run than canning his sorry arse.

 

Haynesworth was a giant turd circling the bowl at Redskins Park and needed to be flushed. Was it a vendetta because Shanahan pushed the handle?  Do you have vendettas against your turds?  Or do you just flush them because you can and because it's the right thing to do?

 

Holy cow...

[Commander PK]

Looks like the entire offense already has judging on last Monday night.

 

 

I'm not so sure.  The more I have thought about it...missing Reed and Hankerson.  RG3's struggles.  Facing one of the top 3 or 4 defenses in the league.

 

Was it giving up or more completely outmatched.  Tomorrow should tell us a lot about the state of the team.  If the Giants hog tie us, than I may be forced to change my opinion on some things.  We'll see. 

 

All I want to see is fight.   Not go out with a whimper.  I want them to fight for 60 minutes and not get blown out by anybody.  If the games are close, they have a chance.  That's all you can ask at this point.

[chipwhich]

Looks like the entire offense already has judging on last Monday night.

 

They most certainly aren't any better as we currently stand right here, right now. 

 

Hail. 

 

Dude they were bringing in a bingo caller.

[Tyron Biggums]

so basically, if he checks his ego and gets back to what made him great...ok.  lol

 

I'm not sure I agree with that aspect.  For me, the one big thing that must change is the defensive side of the ball.  Far and away that has  been our biggest problem over the last two seasons.  The offense is also struggling now, but I am willing to put most of the onus for that on RG3's rehab and lack of off-season.  The defense has never really shown anything. 

Never forget this is Mike's defense. I don't know any other way to explain it. If you don't like the defense then you don't like Mike S.

Maybe I am misunderstanding where you are coming from. My apologies. My feeling towards Mike aren't emotional, I'm basing my opinion with the facts that I have been presented in a logical way.

 

BTW whats wrong with him going back to what made him great ?

 

Hail

[FuriousD]

Dude they were bringing in a bingo caller.

Not to mention last years division crown; the first one in 12 years!  Guess that stands for nothing...

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Dude they were bringing in a bingo caller.

 

But can you honestly say the product on the field is much if any better 4 years removed?

 

Of course the whole organisation was in a much worse state of affairs, but ultimately, where it matters most, is there much if any difference from then to now as we currently stand?

 

Hail. 

[chipwhich]

But can you honestly say the product on the field is much if any better 4 years removed?

 

Of course the whole organisation was in a much worse state of affairs, but ultimately, where it matters most, is there much if any difference from then to now as we currently stand?

 

Hail. 

 

I think offensively we have something to build on.  I think if we would get a real defensive coordinator and get a couple of olayers on defensive, that unit would vastly improve.

When Zorn was here we had nothing.

[steve09ru]

Despite a thoroughly detailed, non biased OP; despite this being an Internet message board, ergo on the WWW which contains all the info in the OP from countless different sources; folk still miss the facts on this by the proverbial Country Mile.

This place never ceases to amaze.

Hail.

everything is opinion and not fact. There's not 1 link in the OP to a true source. The facts are minimal and there's nothing but speculation and assumption. I'm sorry you're not going to convince me without outlining what would have been different and the same base on true facts and unfortunately we don't know what may or may not have happened. I respect the opinions and work put into it as I think there are some good points but that doesn't mean it is considered fact.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Not to mention last years division crown; the first one in 12 years!  Guess that stands for nothing...

 

In the great scheme of things, as awesomely brilliant as the ride was, one miraculous 7 game win streak against what will more than likely be 3 other double digit loss seasons and a good chance for him to start out with the worst 4 year record of any HC in Redskin history; no, 2013 anomaly really doesn't stand for much. 

 

Hail. 

[Commander PK]

Never forget this is Mike's defense. I don't know any other way to explain it. If you don't like the defense then you don't like Mike S.

Maybe I am misunderstanding where you are coming from. My apologies. My feeling towards Mike aren't emotional, I'm basing my opinion with the facts that I have been presented in a logical way.

 

BTW whats wrong with him going back to what made him great ?

 

Hail

 

I don't like the defense, and I understand he was responsible for bringing the 3-4 with a coordinator who had never coached 3-4 before.  I get that, the results have been undeniable and he serves blame for that. 

 

I'm not sure given everything in totality though, that simply changing the defensive coordinator, and bringing in more talent through the draft and free agency would not help us.  If he is still hell bent on running a 3-4, than bring in a 3-4 guy.   

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I think offensively we have something to build on.  I think if we would get a real defensive coordinator and get a couple of olayers on defensive, that unit would vastly improve.

When Zorn was here we had nothing.

 

The way the offense is currently playing we look, at best, equally as bad as the Zorn carnage. 

 

I get your point chip, but right at this moment it's hard to say we're any better than what he inherited. 

 

Hail. 

[steve09ru]

But can you honestly say the product on the field is much if any better 4 years removed?

Of course the whole organisation was in a much worse state of affairs, but ultimately, where it matters most, is there much if any difference from then to now as we currently stand?

Hail.

I do because we have a lot of young players with a lot of upside. I don't see the team regressing. Where the team was 4 years ago was aging players who already hit their potential and were going to be out of the league in 3 years vs now where players will be in their prime in 2-3 years

[Commander PK]

But can you honestly say the product on the field is much if any better 4 years removed?

 

Right here, right now, at this moment.  No it's not.  I do believe this team is much better on paper than the 2009 team, but they are 3-8 and the results have not been there this season.  Undeniable facts.  Indisputable. 

 

I do give them credit for an incredible run last season and an NFC East Championship.  I am incredibly dissapointed at how this season has fared, but I do not agree that we are not better off now than we were when Cerrato was fired.  I do not agree that it's a foregone conclusion that Mike Shanahan should be fired.