No Shanahan doesn't deserve a free pass because of the cap penalty

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

everything is opinion and not fact. There's not 1 link in the OP to a true source. The facts are minimal and there's nothing but speculation and assumption. I'm sorry you're not going to convince me without outlining what would have been different and the same base on true facts and unfortunately we don't know what may or may not have happened. I respect the opinions and work put into it as I think there are some good points but that doesn't mean it is considered fact.

 

No problem there. I'd suggest if you don't want to do a search yourself, ask the OP for relevant links. 

 

I'm sure he'd be more than accommodating. 

 

Hail. 

[Tyron Biggums]

I don't like the defense, and I understand he was responsible for bringing the 3-4 with a coordinator who had never coached 3-4 before.  I get that, the results have been undeniable and he serves blame for that. 

 

I'm not sure given everything in totality though, that simply changing the defensive coordinator, and bringing in more talent through the draft and free agency would not help us.  If he is still hell bent on running a 3-4, than bring in a 3-4 guy.   

That would be an incredible improvement and a move like that could make all the difference in the world. If you are saying we bring in a real 3-4 DC, and lets that DC pick his own staff without any interference from Mike S. I would sign on to the program easily because that would be a major step in the right direction.

 

Hail

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Right here, right now, at this moment.  No it's not.  I do believe this team is much better on paper than the 2009 team, but they are 3-8 and the results have not been there this season.  Undeniable facts.  Indisputable. ....

 

That was exactly the point I was alluding to. 

 

No question on paper you'd take this roster over what Zorn left. (Not that this roster is filled with top quality. But it sure as heck beats that.). But in the cold, harsh light of day on the field, that presumed better quality just isn't transcending. Which begs the question, as much as we might perceive it to be better; in reality is it so much better when the performances/ results are just as bad?

 

We're as badly coached, disciplined and rudderless as we were at any time through the Zorn debacle. 

 

3-8. We fail to win 2 more games, and that's no better than Zorn managed in his two seasons.

 

4 years on. 

 

Hail. 

[Koolblue13]

That would be an incredible improvement and a move like that could make all the difference in the world. If you are saying we bring in a real 3-4 DC, and lets that DC pick his own staff without any interference from Mike S. I would sign on to the program easily because that would be a major step in the right direction.

 

Hail

Why would a HC have no say in the staff working under him? That doesn't make any sense. Mike is the Head coach, not a coordinator.

[steve09ru]

No problem there. I'd suggest if you don't want to do a search yourself, ask the OP for relevant links.

I'm sure he'd be more than accommodating.

Hail.

the only thing not speculation and assumption are the trades for brown and mcnabb. We don't know what and if anything an the details of any trade offers for the list of players mentioned. We don't know who would have been targeted via fa and what kind of impact those replacements could have made. Again, a lot of good perspective but I'm a facts person and it's fine with me that others have different perspectives using both facts and what ifs

[Tyron Biggums]

 

 

Holy cow...

Randy Holt did say he was not defending Fat Al in anyway.brother

 

Hail

Why would a HC have no say in the staff working under him? That doesn't make any sense. Mike is the Head coach, not a coordinator.

Why should Mike have any say with the defense? His track record with defense has been abysmal. How many times do we need to see him hurt the team by being involved with the defense.

 

Hail

[Koolblue13]

Randy Holt did say he was not defending Fat Al in anyway.brother

 

Hail

Why should Mike have any say with the defense? His track record with defense has been abysmal. How many times do we need to see him hurt the team by being involved with the defense.

 

Hail

He is the head coach. Of course he is going to have a say in who coaches on his team. I'm not defending a single one of his hires either, just laughing because you're saying the Head Coach, should have zero say in who coaches for him. That's how guys get pulled out of their bingo halls.

[FuriousD]

In the great scheme of things, as awesomely brilliant as the ride was, one miraculous 7 game win streak against what will more than likely be 3 other double digit loss seasons and a good chance for him to start out with the worst 4 year record of any HC in Redskin history; no, 2013 anomaly really doesn't stand for much. 

 

Hail. 

So if we cut out all the gripping in the middle, we are left with "awesomely brilliant doesn't stand for much", which about sums it up for you.  Got it.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Ah, gotta love Kevin E. and Grant Paulsen all getting the jump on that one.  The next two weeks of that years FA thread was "did Eddie Royal sign yet?" lol.

 

So, I know I don't have to tell you this, but the 12 not being garunteed means it's not an outright 6 mil per.  Would've needed to see what the garuntee was to know what the base cap his was.

 

Being that he signed with San Diego for about $4mil per, I'm guessing it was substantially lower than that and not 6 mil.

Well, NFL contracts aren't guaranteed. Morgan will have recieved 12 mil in his two years here, presumably it would be the same with Royal.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

So if we cut out all the gripping in the middle, we are left with "awesomely brilliant doesn't stand for much", which about sums it up for you.  Got it.

 

Head. 

 

Wall.

 

Bang.

 

Hail. 

[Tyron Biggums]

He is the head coach. Of course he is going to have a say in who coaches on his team. I'm not defending a single one of his hires either, just laughing because you're saying the Head Coach, should have zero say in who coaches for him. That's how guys get pulled out of their bingo halls.

No I'm saying Mike S. should have zero say on who coaches defense for him. Every last DC he has hired has been below mediocre. Check out the stats since he has been in charge of doing that. I have and it's alarming that he is allowed to even now. The great offense mind doesn't make him qualified to make defensive decisions. Like I said earlier my opinions are based on the facts I have been presented. Great leaders surround themselves with great people. That's how it has worked in the past. Why try and reinvent the wheel?

 

Hail

[Rufus T Firefly]

What he meant by more of a fit was that he had more guaranteed playing time IMO. He was probably ready to sign until we got BOTH Garcon and Morgan. Of course, as it turns out he definitely would have been starting over Morgan/Hank but that was before everyone realized how much Morgan had lost coming back from injury.

That is what I basically recall/ felt at the time. He was being made a starter there, might not have been here.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Unless something else came to light, I believe there were no interested parties for Haynesworth anyway.  Based off my memories of the situation at the time.  You got the sense that the rest of the league wanted the Skins to bask in the epic fail of Haynesworth for a while.

 

There were many rumors around Haynseworth that offseason. By draft day, it seemed almost certain he would be dealt. Minnesota, New Orleans, Tennessee and Detroit were the main teams talking about him.

 

Keep in mind, this is a guy who a year earlier had commanded a 100 mil contract, and we weren't the only team offering in that range. Now, a trading team could have had him for about 5 mil per year. It would be hard to believe that no one would want him.

[SJValleySkinz]

Since I've joined this board I've both learned a lot from some of the posters and I've also been greatly entertained. As far as the entertainment goes, nothing can top Redskins fans, of all the fans of all the teams in the NFL, saying "if we had the money to sign a bunch of free agents we would have been better." I feel bad for you guys though if I was in a coma for 13 years I'd hope someone would be nice enough to fill me in on what I missed, but it's the holidays and I'm in a good mood so I'll fill you guys in. We all obviously want the to see the Redskins win a Superbowl, but a "Superbowl caliber team" is a term the media to get your attention. In reality, you want sustainable success, or in other words a team that gets into the playoffs on a yearly basis. (New England, Baltimore, San Fran, Green Bay, New Orleans, Indy under Payton, and until recently the Giants and Steelers) As anyone who pays any attention to the NFL team building landscape will tell you, free agency as it has been suggested we would have used it DOES NOT get you that sustainable success we are all yearning for. You get that through the draft, and you get that by making smart, supplemental signings. So do we know for sure if things would have been different if the 2010 offseason moves would have conducted with an inkling of common sense? Of course not, but we do know for sure that it was an inexplicable deviation from the only proven formula to achieve sustainable success, but a return to the same type of mistakes that got this franchise into the sad state it was in in the first place. If we can use the cap penalty as an excuse and say it cost us some starters, we cannot turn around and say this regime has drafted well (I don't completely disagree with that statement) but the picks that went on McNabb and Brown didn't cost us starters. Look at some of the teams I mentioned above and tell me how many of their better players are higher priced free agent signings and how many of them were taken with the same type of draft picks we wasted (2,3,4) The difference is the cap room was taken, but the draft picks were foolishly given away.

 

All that being said, the lack of harmony in the locker room, the awful body language on the field and the general lack of confidence the team is playing with has nothing to do with the draft, Mara, RG3's knee or any other cop out even the most creative apologists can come up with. In fact, I've brought that up in other threads and nobody seems to have an alternative to why that is happening other than the head coach.

[Commander PK]

There were many rumors around Haynseworth that offseason. By draft day, it seemed almost certain he would be dealt. Minnesota, New Orleans, Tennessee and Detroit were the main teams talking about him.

 

Keep in mind, this is a guy who a year earlier had commanded a 100 mil contract, and we weren't the only team offering in that range. Now, a trading team could have had him for about 5 mil per year. It would be hard to believe that no one would want him.

 

This is true.  However, I think nobody wanted the price tag that came with him.  In the end, it didn't happen.  I imagine that money is why.  It also merits noting again, that the contract was actually around 40 million with incentives that could have paid him up to 100 million. 

 

It certainly appears as though Fat Al decided 40 was good.   

[Rufus T Firefly]

This is true.  However, I think nobody wanted the price tag that came with him.  In the end, it didn't happen.  I imagine that money is why.  It also merits noting again, that the contract was actually around 40 million with incentives that could have paid him up to 100 million. 

 

It certainly appears as though Fat Al decided 40 was good.   

It wasn't incentives, it was standard non-guaranteed salary and bonuses.

 

http://insidethecap.blogspot.com/2009/03/haynesworth-contract-detailsdont.html

 

Point remaining, no matter what he was going to have been paid at least 12 mil per year for however long that contract went, and over 40 mil guaranteed. To go from that to 3 years, 16 mil is a helluva bargain. Many thought he was the best defensive player in football when we signed him.

[Commander PK]

Point remaining, no matter what he was going to have been paid at least 12 mil per year for however long that contract went, and over 40 mil guaranteed. To go from that to 3 years, 16 mil is a helluva bargain. Many thought he was the best defensive player in football when we signed him.

 

it's hard for me to fault Shanahan with anything Haynesworth.  He didn't bring him here, but he had to deal with him.  I thought he handled a very difficult situation admirably.

 

For me, I think what is really keeping me on his bandwagon is last years NFC Championship.  He put the team in a position to win last year, and if RG3 had not been injured...who knows if the East championship is the only thing we would have been celebrating.  For me, last season's success has tended to make me more forgiving of this season's dissapointments.  I also think in a manner of speaking, last season "cancels out" any failures or mistakes from 2010 and 2011.  I think our struggles this season have less to do with an overall failure of this regime since Day #1, and more to do with RG3's injury, an inability to upgrade the defense at key positions, and the cap penalty.  We are also short 1 more playmaker on offense. 

[Koolblue13]

No I'm saying Mike S. should have zero say on who coaches defense for him. Every last DC he has hired has been below mediocre. Check out the stats since he has been in charge of doing that. I have and it's alarming that he is allowed to even now. The great offense mind doesn't make him qualified to make defensive decisions. Like I said earlier my opinions are based on the facts I have been presented. Great leaders surround themselves with great people. That's how it has worked in the past. Why try and reinvent the wheel?

 

Hail

So, who hires the defensive coaches?

[Rufus T Firefly]

The way MS handled Fat Albert ended up getting us stuck with a $21 mil cap penalty and turned a trade asset that multiple teams were interested in into a late 5th rounder that we had to wait a couple of years to redeem.

 

I can't agree that he handled that well.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

So, who hires the defensive coaches?

 

If you went down that route, the GM you hire to make player personnel moves even if Shanahan stays. 

 

Hail. 

[Koolblue13]

If you went down that route, the GM you hire to make player personnel moves even if Shanahan stays. 

 

Hail

He most likely is staying and he is the GM, soooo?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

He most likely is staying and he is the GM, soooo?

 

If your Snyder and you still want to see this through 5 years, you give him the ultimatum to either relinquish that role or you're relinquishing him from this organisation. 

 

If you keep the status quo, this discussion is moot and you deserve whatever you get. 

 

Hail. 

[Koolblue13]

If your Snyder and you still want to see this through 5 years, you give him the ultimatum to either relinquish that role or you're relinquishing him from this organisation. 

 

If you keep the status quo, this discussion is moot and you deserve whatever you get. 

 

Hail. 

I disagree. You don't try and rebuild an entire organization that has been awful for decades, then hang everything on the coach when he hasn't finished his contract and has a second year QB coming off major injury and have been docked millions of dollars in cap money. I'm not blaming everything on the QB or the money, but taking what was viewed as a stable front office and blowing it p again before the end of his contract is foolish IMO.

I'm curious how many coaches in he league have had no say in hiring their defensive staff and how successful that has made them.

[Tyron Biggums]

 

I'm curious how many coaches in he league have had no say in hiring their defensive staff and how successful that has made them.

No idea, but it's a fact Mike S. has had his fingerprints on a lot of underachieving defenses. So, you are alright if he picks the DC, but doesn't interfere with the DC position after he hires his guy?

[Koolblue13]

No idea, but it's a fact Mike S. has had his fingerprints on a lot of underachieving defenses. So, you are alright if he picks the DC, but doesn't interfere with the DC position after he hires his guy?

It's not interfering when the head coach overseas who the coordinators are. Especially when you're the GM. It's what the Head Coaching job is. I'm not saying he should micromanage and that he should trust his coach, but to think any HC is going to "mind his business" is absurd to me. That is his business.

 

I'm aware of his defenses. I really enjoyed the defense he inherited when he took over for Reeves. A****er was one of my favorite players.

Lol at the Steve A****er block. You can see Ahole now, but not the name of a revolutionary safety.  ols