American Atheists V. Irs

[PeterMP]

Fair enough. As an expedient in discussions like this, we non-believers will often lump all of us together as non-believers whether atheist, agnostic or other. However my point wasn't necessarily that non-believers give more than believers so I don't really care about that per se. I just found a quick link to point out the error in Asbury's implied idea that non-believers don't give to charitable causes nor have a social/ethical imperative to do so. We do give, and we do run many charitable organizations.

 

Oh, its fine I got your point.  It was more of a point to some non-believers here that have been insistent that there is a difference between agnostic and atheism and that neither one is an indication of the positive rejection that there is a god (neither holds the position that god does not exist).

 

And that people like myself, should be described as agnostic (without knowledge) theist (but with belief).

 

I seriously doubt that Buffet has any belief positive belief or knowledge of a god and by calling himself agnostic that he meant to suggest or that most people would think that it was possible that he did.

 

Which is the point that I've made before in terms of common usage and in many reference sources for many years.

 

The Gates' I'm less sure of though.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't see how taxing a religious organization just like you would any other organization is breaking the separation of church and state.

The reason they aren't is because of separation, if you remove tax exemption then churches get full participation and up front influence of the churches in the governmental process, you also then must allow for government funding of religious organizations in the same way that secular organizations receive funding (i.e. Colleges etc). But my guess is that those crying out for church taxation just want to take the money from the churches without allowing the churches the same benefits afforded to secular organizations. Just imagine the cry that the American Atheists would bellow out when churches started applying for government funding. LoL!

And let's not pretend that the church isn't influencing politics. They have tax exemption benefits and still play get to meddle in local, state and federal governing. How convenient.

Churches are allowed a very limited role, they can talk about issues etc but are not allowed to endorse candidates, if you think church influence in politics is heavy now...then allow them full participation, you ain't seen nothing.

[AsburySkinsFan]

American Atheists stand up for the civil rights of non-believers and for the separation of church and state. Therefore charitable activities like soup kitchens, clothing drives, and the like are outside their core mission. Let's see if I can play the specious comparison game too. When was the last time a church ever stood up for the civil rights of non-believers or for the separation of church and state?

Well as a pastor I stood up for equal rights of believers and non-believers alike, I am also and ardent supporter of the separation of church and state, so to ask me when was the last time I saw it....well about the last time I looked in the mirror. And in case you're wondering the church is bigger than the narrow-minded Fundies who fight gays and want 10 Commandments in every classroom.

Of course I'm sure you were completely unaware of how invalid a comparison this was. Interestingly, you also chose to ignore it when I pointed out that in general, atheists and other non-believers give as much or more than believers.

Of course you realize that I never quoted you nor did I even see your post when I wrote mine.

[PokerPacker]

The reason they aren't is because of separation, if you remove tax exemption then churches get full participation and up front influence of the churches in the governmental process, you also then must allow for government funding of religious organizations in the same way that secular organizations receive funding (i.e. Colleges etc).

Oh, I see where you're coming from now. I thought you were saying that by taxing religion, the government was intruding on the church.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Then please provide a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501©_organization

You acquire 501©(3) tax exemption by filing IRS Form 1023. The form must be accompanied by a $850 filing fee if the yearly gross receipts for the organization are expected to average $10,000 or more.[28][29] If yearly gross receipts are expected to average less than $10,000, the filing fee is reduced to $400.[28][29]

[The Sisko]

Well as a pastor I stood up for equal rights of believers and non-believers alike, I am also and ardent supporter of the separation of church and state, so to ask me when was the last time I saw it....well about the last time I looked in the mirror. And in case you're wondering the church is bigger than the narrow-minded Fundies who fight gays and want 10 Commandments in every classroom.

Of course you realize that I never quoted you nor did I even see your post when I wrote mine.

 

You're a good guy Asbury and from what I know of you, I don't doubt that you have and will continue to support separation of church and state and the civil rights of non-believers. However you specifically asked what the group American Atheists has done so I need to know when the church as an organization has taken these stands. Clearly whether the church has done so or not is immaterial as is the question of whether American Atheist has done charity work. Again, different organizations with different missions.

 

I'm sorry for any snarkyness. I tend to get my panties in a wad when people imply that non-believers don't have the same morals, empathy, ethics, etc. as believers. 

[Larry]

You have yet to show how there is any substantive difference in the way a religious group is treated. The article you posted tells half the story and ignores the fact churches all have to do the same thing.

 

Well, the plaintiffs claim there's a big difference. 

 

Whether they can prove it, is something that trials are for. 

[Mocountyskins]

The way that religious people talk about atheists and "non believers," and the way that "non believers" talk about religious people is extremely disturbing. It's as if they don't see each other as people and just slap some big label on everyone because it makes it easier to argue. Churches should not be taxed but a lot of big time non profit organizations should be investigated they are liars at the highest level that only care about maximizing income and don't give a damn about the people or the environment or whatever they are set up to do. I'm not talking about a mom and pops "non profit" but a "non profit" such as NPR, Ted Talks and Nature defense are just deceitful and need to be looked into. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

The way that religious people talk about atheists and "non believers," and the way that "non believers" talk about religious people is extremely disturbing.

When having a discussion about different groups of people how else should we differentiate between the two parties? Sooner or later you need a label if you're going have a discussion.

[Mocountyskins]

When having a discussion about different groups of people how else should we differentiate between the two parties? Sooner or later you need a label if you're going have a discussion.

About the specific individuals in the groups or the subsects of the larger group. It's like grouping all blacks as blacks or conservatives and the tea party. Or liberals as all Obama supporters. Slapping a label on a large group of people that is made out of hundreds or thousands of subsects is one of the easiest ways to validate ones opinion without actually debating.

[AsburySkinsFan]

About the specific individuals in the groups or the subsects of the larger group. It's like grouping all blacks as blacks or conservatives and the tea party. Or liberals as all Obama supporters. Slapping a label on a large group of people that is made out of hundreds or thousands of subsects is one of the easiest ways to validate ones opinion without actually debating.

And yet to have a discussion certain generalities have to be used or else you spend all of your time specifying until no useful discussion is had. One thing I tell people all the time is, "if it doesn't apply to you then fine, those shoes aren't yours." But to pretend that general labels aren't descriptive of larger groups is a bit naïve.

[MEANDWARF]

Tax the churches.

Even the ones that have Food Pantry and Soup Kitchens for the poor?

 

And let's not pretend that the church isn't influencing politics. They have tax exemption benefits and still play get to meddle in local, state and federal governing. How convenient.

Planned Parenthood and Labor Unions don't have influence in Politics? Plus don't they too received tax exempt status? 

[Mocountyskins]

Even the ones that have Food Pantry and Soup Kitchens for the poor?

 

 

You only get the soup if you accept the pamphlet the explains Christianity.

[Larry]

Just as a broader topic, I do confess that I find myself wondering how much of a change would it really make, if we just did away with all of the tax exempt status(s). 

 

For example, it occurs to me that, if The Salvation Army doesn't make a profit, then they're exempt from income tax, anyway. 

 

(Now, I would assume that their exemption from property taxes no doubt saves them a ton of money.  But that's a matter of local law.) 

[MEANDWARF]

You only get the soup if you accept the pamphlet the explains Christianity.

Free food and a pamphlet still sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

[Mocountyskins]

Free food and a pamphlet still sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Agreed

[Larry]

You only get the soup if you accept the pamphlet the explains Christianity.

I SUSPECT that you're probably right. But I confess I'm not at all certain of it.

[alexey]

Free food and a pamphlet still sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

More food and less pamphlets sounds even better

[MEANDWARF]

More food and less pamphlets sounds even better

Now you need something to read while you're eatin'.

[Larry]

Now you need something to read while you're eatin'.

 

Free WiFi. 

[MEANDWARF]

Free WiFi. 

That only shows the Churches Website. Good idea Larry!

[alexey]

What's the problem with churches getting money from the government? If government is giving money for X, and your organization can do X, then what's the problem?

[Zguy28]

Free WiFi. 

You got bigger issues if you have a device that uses wifi but no food to eat. Can I get an amen?

What's the problem with churches getting money from the government? If government is giving money for X, and your organization can do X, then what's the problem?

Because eventually the gov't will begin to tell you what to do with with the money, and it will become something else besides X. Just leave churches alone. Its not like the employees are tax exempt, they aren't.

I SUSPECT that you're probably right. But I confess I'm not at all certain of it.

Not at my church. The pamphlet is there to take, but not handed to you. Most of the time, the people just need a meal and somebody to genuinely listen and talk to them.

[alexey]

Call me old fashioned, but I think the government should be making regulations based in behavior and not beliefs, period.

[MEANDWARF]

You got bigger issues if you have a device that uses wifi but no food to eat. Can I get an amen?

Because eventually the gov't will begin to tell you what to do with with the money, and it will become something else besides X. Just leave churches alone. Its not like the employees are tax exempt, they aren't.

Not at my church. The pamphlet is there to take, but not handed to you. Most of the time, the people just need a meal and somebody to genuinely listen and talk to them.

I once belonged to a church that opened the food pantry every other Saturday for those in need (members or non-members). We would serve those in need by asking them if there were anything else that we could do to help or ask if we can pray for them. Literature and/or bibles are available if they want them. Sadly the church had to close its doors due to lack of funds. Sold the building to a Funeral Home(irony).

The church we belong to now don't have the funds at this time to have a food pantry. Struggling right now due to a slow economy and low membership. Our Pastor had to get a 30 % cut in pay and now has a second job as a school bus driver. Thankfully we have the mortgage paid off, but we have a leaky roof that is in need of continuous repair. But God works, and maybe someday we'll have a food pantry for the ones in need.