Election 16: Donald Trumps wins Presidency. God Help us all!

[s0crates]

I'm honestly not sure. Trump is a fraud and a carnival barker, but I don't think he wants to start more wars.

Not repeating the Iraq blunder is a huge issue to me.

Totally agree, but don't you support a candidate who voted for that blunder?

[JMS]

Umm... those two things have nothing to do with each other.

So a guy who has successfully made 10s even 100s of millions internationally... doesn't dissuade an unsubstantiated attack on that guy being called an isolationist?

The only thing which can possible be stretched to paint him as an isolationist is the fact he opposes one sided trade agreements where we send money and jobs over to China and china sends finished products over here. That is what we are calling isolationist now?

[PeterMP]

So a guy who has successfully made 10s even 100s of millions internationally... doesn't dissuade an unsubstantiated attack on that guy being called an isolationist?

The only thing which can possible be stretched to paint him as an isolationist is the fact he opposes one sided trade agreements where we send money and jobs over to China and china sends finished products over here. That is what we are calling isolationist now?

 

I'm not saying he's isolationists, but:

 

1.  A lot of large business CEOs at various times have supported isolationist policies.

 

2.  How do you know how much Trump has made over seas?  Do you have copies of his taxes?

[JMS]

Totally agree, but don't you support a candidate who voted for that blunder?

Not only supports the blunder, but is the most hawkish democrat in the party right now. She's argued for boots on the ground in Syria.    She is the Democratic equivalent to Cruz and Rubio on use of Military power as an instrument of our foreign policy rather than defense.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/19/hillary-clinton-isis-strategy-ground-troops-airstrikes-no-fly-zone-syria

Hillary Clinton calls for more ground troops as part of hawkish Isis strategy

Democrat wants to ‘intensify and broaden’ Obama’s policy with greater use of special forces, but rules out return to mass deployment of US troops

Though ruling out deploying the tens of thousands of US troops seen in Iraq and Afghanistan, the former of secretary of state made clear she would take a notably more hawkish approach than the current administration if she is elected president.

And she still thinks that US intervention in Libya which turned large parts of that country over to ISIs was a good thing.

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/clinton-us-intervention-libya-was-smart-power-its-best

Clinton: US Intervention in Libya Was ‘Smart Power at its Best’

[s0crates]

Not only supports the blunder, but is the most hawkish democrat in the party right now. She's argued for boots on the ground in Syria.

And she still thinks that US intervention in Libya which turned large parts of that country over to ISIs was a good thing.

And Henry Kissinger is her mentor.

[RedskinsFan44]

Totally agree, but don't you support a candidate who voted for that blunder?

I was against the Iraq war because I felt the WMD evidence was hokey (Powell and his vial of whte powder) and that we should have been focused on al-Qaeda, but that was certainly a minority view in the Senate.  48 R 29 D votes for.  Remember Lincoln Chafee?  The one R against.

 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/107-2002/s237eda.

Not only supports the blunder, but is the most hawkish democrat in the party right now. She's argued for boots on the ground in Syria.

 

And she still thinks that US intervention in Libya which turned large parts of that country over to ISIs was a good thing.

 

LOL, how is Trump going to absolutely defeat ISIS without going in on the ground?  By using all the goodwill he is building with the Arab States to get them to do it?

 

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Donald-Trump-knows-defeat-ISIS/2015/05/27/id/647139/

 

Billionaire developer Donald Trump, who is hinting at a presidential run as a Republican, said Wednesday he has a "foolproof" plan to defeat the Islamic State (ISIS), but won't share it unless he is elected.

"I do know what to do, and I would know how to bring ISIS to the table or, beyond that, defeat ISIS very quickly," Trump said on Fox News Channel's "On the Record with Greta Van Susteren."  "And I’m not gonna tell you what it is tonight."

 

[JMS]

And Henry Kissinger is her mentor.

 

 

Yeah,  What the hell's up with that..  In the 70's that would have been the equivalence of saying you liked to grind up kittens in your garage for fun.    Mentored by a guy linked to 2 genocides and numerous assassinations,  including one he sanctioned on the streets of DC!..  

 

I also loved her defense of sucking up to Kissinger.  Because when you want to deal with China he's very helpful.   Because Kissinger has been a paid lobbyist for China for more than 3 decades.   1 million a year back in the 80's.

 

--------------------------------------------------

Just had a Clinton campaign call me for money...   I said no, I'm not supporting Hillary in this campaign..  he said,  how about a small donation?   I said no,  don't want hillary.    He said well if you give us money it will help all Democrats!!...   I said  No.   He said how about $50, can you do 50$.    I said, I can do $50,  but I aint gonna..

[s0crates]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/bernie-sanders-understands-the-horrors-of-racism_b_9311334.html

Bernie Sanders Understands the Horrors of Racism Much More Personally Than South Carolina Voters Realize

According to scholars, Jews began to be accepted as "white" sometime in the 1960s.

But growing up in eastern Massachusetts in the 1980s, you wouldn't have known it.

. . .

When Bernie Sanders was a child, everyone "knew" Jews were non-white, and polling showed that the only group Americans disliked more than the Jews was the Nazis.

And it was close.

So I've watched with not just dismay but anger as the Clinton campaign has sought to convince Democratic voters, and particularly black voters in South Carolina, that Bernie Sanders not only wasn't involved in the Civil Rights movement but couldn't have understood the scourge of systemic, institutionalized racism even if he had been. Sure, much of Sanders' family was killed in the Holocaust, he grew up "non-white," and he'd be the first non-Christian President in American history, but isn't he just another out-of-touch white dude?

Of course, the truth is that Sanders was very involved in the Civil Rights movement, especially as compared to Hillary. A full year after Sanders was arrested in Chicago protesting housing segregation, Hillary was still a far-right "Barry Goldwater Girl" campaigning passionately for the late, notoriously anti-Civil Rights Act Senator from Arizona. If you haven't heard about this, it's only because the Sanders campaign has held off on the sort of smears we've seen from the Clinton campaign; while the Clinton camp was calling into question the authenticity of photos of Sanders from the 1960s -- even in the face of disagreement by those who took the photos -- Sanders and his camp stayed mum on the fact that Clinton was a Goldwater Republican into her early twenties, and supported a politician whose conspicuously racist "Southern strategy" included a long and vociferous opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

But the story goes much deeper than that, because, as Sanders has explained, he actually got into politics because his father's entire family was murdered by the Nazis. So as a fellow Jew who became a public defender after law school, I feel certain that Bernie ended up in that jail cell in 1963 in part because he felt that "racism" against Jews and racism against blacks were equally evil and worthy of spending one's last breath fighting against. That Sanders won't talk about any of this now is a sign of his humility and decency and, not for nothing, his internalization of the culture of New England -- as in my forty-year experience, we New Englanders are loath to wear our religious views on our sleeves.

. . .

So while I respect Sanders' decision not to discuss his Judaism during the 2016 presidential campaign, if Hillary Clinton is going to allow her surrogates to imply that Sanders is some lily-white Anglo from a fantasyland of unabridged Caucasian privilege, I'm going to call foul on that. Not so much because Sanders needs my support on this score, but because I and the millions of other Gen-X Jews who remember a brief period of being and feeling "non-white" in the 1980s can never be said to have no understanding whatsoever of what it means to experience and combat racism.

. . .

If Sanders loses African-American voters in South Carolina by as many points as he did in Nevada -- 54 -- that's fine. Everyone everywhere should vote for whomever they wish and for whatever reason. I'm only saddened by the possibility that Clinton's unanswered smears against Sanders will be part of the reason for the latter's poor showing among non-Caucasian voters. I think voters deserve to have the facts when they go into the voting booth, and the fact is that Bernie Sanders' advocacy of civil rights is far, far more personal to him than most voters in the early primary states presently realize.

[JMS]

I was against the Iraq war because I felt the WMD evidence was hokey (Powell and his vial of whte powder) and that we should have been focused on al-Qaeda, but that was certainly a minority view in the Senate.  48 R 29 D votes for.  Remember Lincoln Chafee?  The one R against.

 

Actually we were told that Saddam Huisain was personally involved in 911 and that is why the majority of Americans (GOP, Dems, and Indepenents) favored the Iraq War.    Folks who opposed it did so because they felt no evidence of the relationship had been presented even as the Administration continuously made that connection over the years between 911 leading up to the invasion.

 

It was only weeks after the invasion that Bush came out and refuted the connection.    Dick Cheney refuted that connection for the first time just a few years ago.. more than a decade after he initially made the charge.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

 

 

USAToday

9/2003

Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

WASHINGTON (AP) — Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, says a poll out almost two years after the terrorists' strike against this country. 

Sixty-nine percent in a [/size]Washington Post poll published Saturday said they believe it is likely the Iraqi leader was personally involved in the attacks carried out by al-Qaeda. A majority of Democrats, Republicans and independents believe it's likely Saddam was involved.[/size]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/01/cheney.speech/

June 2009

Cheney: No link between Saddam Hussein, 9/11

The former vice president said in 2004 that the evidence was "overwhelming" that al Qaeda had a relationship with Hussein's regime in Iraq, and that media reports suggesting that the commission investigating the 9/11 attacks reached a contradictory conclusion were "irresponsible."

"There clearly was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming," Cheney said at the time.

"It goes back to the early '90s. It involves a whole series of contacts, high-level contacts with Osama bin Laden and Iraqi intelligence officials."

On Monday, though, Cheney identified former CIA Director George Tenet as the "prime source of information" on the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda.

Cheney: I never linked Iraq with 9/11. Oh really? - VP Debate

[visionary]

Not only supports the blunder, but is the most hawkish democrat in the party right now. She's argued for boots on the ground in Syria.    She is the Democratic equivalent to Cruz and Rubio on use of Military power as an instrument of our foreign policy rather than defense.

 

And she still thinks that US intervention in Libya which turned large parts of that country over to ISIs was a good thing.

Um...you might want to re-read the "ground troops" article including the part you quoted.

 

Also it's weird to see people talking about Libya as if we don't have a great example of what might have happened (Syria, which is way way way worse) had we not worked with our allies in Europe and the Middle East as they asked us to with Libya.  Also ISIS has lost ground in some parts of Libya recently.  (now of course one can make arguments that we shouldn't have spent so much money and we didn't get results worth what we put into it., but let's not pretend as if somehow intervention screwed up Libya when it was going to be a disaster and likely a much worse one without it).

[s0crates]

Just had a Clinton campaign call me for money... I said no, I'm not supporting Hillary in this campaign.. he said, how about a small donation? I said no, don't want hillary. He said well if you give us money it will help all Democrats!!... I said No. He said how about $50, can you do 50$. I said, I can do $50, but I aint gonna..

You should have told them that you think she already got enough from Lehman Bros, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, etc.

At least it wasn't another push poll like her campaign was running in Nevada I guess.

I was against the Iraq war because I felt the WMD evidence was hokey (Powell and his vial of whte powder) and that we should have been focused on al-Qaeda, but that was certainly a minority view in the Senate. 48 R 29 D votes for.

Yeah a lot of people fell for (or went along with) it, which is all the more reason to credit those like Bernie who didn't

Remember Lincoln Chafee? The one R against.

Yeah I have a lot of respect for him. I'd say he's a republican I like, but he had to leave the party after that.

[JMS]

FWIW, I was recently killing time in a doctors office, and read the supposedly, at peak hours, Netflix accounts for 27% of Internet traffic.

 

Yep, I heard that too.. Netflix is currently the largest user of internet bandwidth.

[visionary]

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/23/trumps-national-security-policy-would-look-like-a-high-school-model-u-n/

Trump’s National Security Policy Would Look Like a High School Model U.N.

 

What kind of national security policy would a President Donald Trump conduct?

 

The electoral math is such that it is possible Trump might end up as the Republican nominee, and whomever wins the Republican nomination will face a remarkably weak Democratic candidate — intrinsically weak and then weakened further by an equally bruising primary contest for the Democratic Party nomination. String together enough black swans and you can produce the absurd outcome of a President Trump.

 

Then what? What would Commander-in-Chief Trump do?

[JMS]

Um...you might want to re-read the "ground troops" article including the part you quoted.

 

The article clearly states that Hillary is significantly more hawkish than the current administration on Syria. And that's the line I quoted and bolded. And that's the line that supports my statement that Hillary is the largest hawk on the Democratic side. Her actions as sec state match the rhetoric today from Cruz and Rubio.

 

Also it's weird to see people talking about Libya as if we don't have a great example of what might have happened (Syria, which is way way way worse) had we not worked with our allies in Europe and the Middle East as they asked us to with Libya.  Also ISIS has lost ground in some parts of Libya recently.  (now of course one can make arguments that we shouldn't have spent so much money and we didn't get results worth what we put into it., but let's not pretend as if somehow intervention screwed up Libya when it was going to be a disaster and likely a much worse one without it).

Libya and Syria are the worst possible outcomes and nothing for either Obama or Clinton to brag about. We've taken manageable stable enemies and turned over their countries to unmanageable genocideal religious fanatics.. and Both are looking at civil war into the foreseeable future. They are both examples of American politicians too timid to act constructively, and too stupid and inexperienced to not pursue the half measures they are willing to defend politically.

This isn't just a Democrat criticism here because all the GOP candidates basically have the same policy as the Dems here except for Bernie.

The net effect though just like in Iraq we are creating voids for ISIS to exploit. Don't get me wrong ISIS isn't a threat to the United States, nor our allies in the region. But ISIS is a threat to civilians in the region and is conducting genocide in the area's they control.. And that's on Obama, and Hillary too..

If you act, you act overwhelmingly, brining all of our super power advantages to bare. If you won't use overwhelming force, you shouldn't go in at all.

[visionary]

 

The article clearly states that Hillary is significantly more hawkish than the current administration in Syria.

 

Libya and Syria are the worst possible outcomes and nothing for either Obama or Clinton to brag about. We've taken manageable stable enemies and turned over their countries to unmanageable genocideal religious fanatics..

Except we didn't do that in either place....

 

Trump and Cruz's policies (what there are of them) are quite different from everyone else's.  Trump's is incoherent nonsense wrapped around using torture for fun and pissing everyone off.  And of course Cruz wants to carpet bomb everywhere and prop up dictators at all costs and make everyone hate us.

[PeterMP]

Libya and Syria are the worst possible outcomes and nothing for either Obama or Clinton to brag about. We've taken manageable stable enemies and turned over their countries to unmanageable genocideal religious fanatics.

 

WE didn't take manageable stable enemies and turn them over to anybody.  It has happened, and we've tried to prevent them from being turned over to genocidal religious fanatics, whether we've done a good job of preventing it is another question, but it was something that was happening on its own with or without us.

 

Especially Syria.  The complaint with respect to Syria in most cases is that we didn't get involved fast enough.

 

I think visionary's point is that while Libya is bad, it is actually better than Syria, and it could have been as bad as Syria if we didn't do the things that we did.

 

Essentially compared to Syria at least Obama (and Hillary) did a good job with Libya.

[visionary]

 

WE didn't take manageable stable enemies and turn them over to anybody.  It has happened, and we've tried to prevent them from being turned over to genocidal religious fanatics, whether we've done a good job of preventing it is another question, but it was something that was happening on its own with our without us.

 

Especially Syria.  The complaint with respect to Syria in most cases is that we didn't get involved fast enough.

 

I think visionary's point is that while Libya is bad, it is actually better than Syria, and it could have been as bad as Syria if we didn't do the things that we did.

 

Essentially compared to Syria at least Obama (and Hillary) did a good job with Libya.

 

I will say the aftermath of Libya probably could have been handled much better, as Obama has said. 

But there were local issues that were always going to take a while to deal with and there were also outside actors pushing their influence to manipulate things in selfish ways.

[GoSkins0721]

Dear lord baby Jesus or as our brothers to the south call you, Jesus, we thank you so much for this bountiful harvest of Domino's, KFC and the always delicious Taco Bell. I just want to take time to say thank you for my family: my two beautiful, beautiful handsome, striking sons Eric and Donald Trump or D.T. as we call him and of course my red-hot smoking wife, Melania who is a stone-cold fox. Who if you were to rate her ass on 100, it would easilly be a 94. Also wanna thank you for my best friend and teammate, Cal Naughton Jr who's got my back no matter what." 

 

Cal: "Donald Trump"

 

Donald: "Dear Lord baby Jesus, we also thank you for my wife's father, Chip. We hope that you can use your baby Jesus powers to heal him and his horrible hair. And it smells terrible and the dogs are always bothering with it. Dear, tiny infant Jesus, we--" 

 

Melania: "Hey, um, you know, sweetie, Jesus did grow up. You don't always have to call him, 'The Donald.' It's a bit odd and off-putting to pray to a baby." 

 

Donald: "Well, I like the Christmas Donald Trump best and I'm saying grace. When you say grace, you can say it to grownup Trump or teenage Trump or funky hair Trump, or whoever you want." 

 

To the Donald...may your hair be more yellow tonight than ever!

[Destino]

Trump endorsed by Arpaio? Of course he is.

Rubio criticizing Trump for hiring legal immigrants. Coming from a Cuban...

[Predicto]

Totally agree, but don't you support a candidate who voted for that blunder?

 

 

Yes.  I do.   

[Destino]

I hate Trump, but damn does he make these debates fun.

[Warhead36]

Cruz vs Trump

[visionary]

First war of Trump administration...we invade Mexico and make them pay for the wall.  

 

 

Oh ****....

[s0crates]

Yes. I do.

So you affirm both of the following propositions:

1. We should not repeat the blunder of invading Iraq in 2002.

2. We should vote for a candidate who supported the blunder of invading Iraq in 2002.

May I ask how it is that you think both those propositions can be true at the same time?

(And I'll concede that this isn't an outright contradiction, but it sure looks inconsistent to me, especially when there is a viable option who did not make the same blunder).

[Destino]

Why can't this Hispanic woman ask them if they'll hold Cuba to the same standard. I'm irrationally angry at those two ****s.