How Kyle's Future and the Skins' Read-Option Future Are Linked

[TheGreek1973]

Here is the issue for me.  RGIII plays football, and this game is a game where injuries can happen at any time.  How many times have we seen for example players tearing an ACL without anyone touching them?  In the case of the QB position Brady tore his ACL also, and we are talking about a QB that along with P Manning gets rid of the ball faster than anyone in the league, almost never scrambles, and historically he gets sacked the least amount of times.  

 

Sure the chances go up if RGIII runs with the ball but if anyone tries to take away his mobility (basically telling him not to run, scramble, etc) you are asking the guy to relearn everything he knows about football.  As good as he is throwing the ball, he is going to be much less effective because he doesn't know how to play "tied down" like this.  

 

All I am hoping is he goes thru this season without injuries and he figures it out slowly like Aaron did in GB after his first full year starting where he started running with the ball less and less.

[Oldfan]

RD: The fact that you can't wait long enough to get a reasonable sample size does not make the sample size you have more relevant.

Who said it did?

Either 152 stands on its own...or it doesn't.

As I wrote in the OP: The 152 hit sample is big enough that it can't reasonably be ignored. If you don't agree, don't use it.

The one event (referring to the original knee injury) can be dismissed.

Can it? Because you said so?

No. Because I know something about Probability. If we don't know beforehand, we can't take one event and determine what the odds were of it happening. We need a fair-size sample to estimate that.

[Oldfan]

Greek: Here is the issue for me.  RGIII plays football, and this game is a game where injuries can happen at any time.

In one sense, Football decisions are no different than Poker decisions. In the long run, if you play high-grade hands. Hands that put the odds on your side, you will win at Poker. If you don't, you will lose.

 

Sure you might run Griffin 10 times a game for the next 15 years without getting him hurt. It's just not likely. The odds are heavily against it.

[Warpath11]

Our o-line was made to run block for the ZBS scheme, they are most effective in pass protection when they, in esseance, execture run blocks.  Traditional drop back passing game will never do with the talent assebled on our oline outside of Trent Williams.  Having said that I think the read option does blend well with the talents of our oline.  However, I agree with Oldfan that they could still run block to pass protect but do it moreso as the Broncos did in 08.  The Carolina, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh games last year bear this out, when requiring standard drop back passing, while trailing and the element of the run is not as strong, RGIII did not have the time in the pocket to execute on that the game plan.  I do like the read option as it did provide Griffing the time to throw and it allowed our oline to do what they do best.  As KDawg pointed out, depending on how the defenses start to play the RO, will define how the Redskins use it, IMO.

[SittingBull]

You criticize the Shanahans for cherry picking stats but at least they provide numbers. You have provided nothing but opinion other than the Cutler in 2008 stat which is less than 1500 sample size lol

[RG3Hunna]

We didn't run read option for almost a whole quarter in Cincinnati after Trent went down and RG3 was DESTROYED because of Jordan Black and Polumbus. We don't run read option on 3rd down and it's no coincidence we are TERRIBLE on 3rd down because of Polumbus, the guy can not pass block to save his life. 

 

You basically wan't to scrap the read option while we have Tyler Polumbus at right tackle? So how do you plan to move the football? Because we obviously didn't move the football hardly at all on 3rd down when we were forced to scrap the read option have RG3 drop back and force our RT to pass block. lol 

[Jumbo]

Such threads are a particularly fertile bed for notably different levels of knowledge, critical thinking skills, personality traits, and ability to form argument.

 

Of course, that is no accident with such thread-starters as the OP and others conversing here, and all such are a boon to the site IMV, even with occasional casualties due to unfortunate conduct choices that occur in such at times (like to see that  minimized). Avoid negative generalized "personality comments" or assessments of character, or motive, unless you can really make a case for it, and stick with responding directly to the actual words actually posted by others). Don't trust every noise in your head as "solid stuff" for a post, especially if you tend to be generally impressed with yourself, or generally unimpressed with certain of your fellows.

 

I have to say again that truly love (and have since our beloved bubba and some of the old WaPo gang drew me here) reading discussions about Redskins football on ES. It's a product that for me, really satisfies and, objectively speaking, still excels, thanks to all of you (and I thank you for my personal enjoyment of your efforts). 

[RG3Hunna]

 

NLC: The zone-read/read-option isn't the best way to slow the pass rush, huh...

 

...Let's see what Kyle Shanahan, the actual coordinator with actual years of NFL experience and not just pre-conceived notions older than Methusula has to say.

 

If you don't give a damn about how often your QB gets hit (70% hit rate), Kyle's right, the read-option is a good way to slow down the rush. But, if you do care, then it sucks.

 

Besides, how do you explain the 33 sacks allowed last year? Shanahan didn't need the read-option in 2008 to register an NFL leading 11 sacks allowed in 2008.

 

You quoted Kyle and hyped his experience then omitted this one, in the same article, from someone with many more years NFL experience than Kyle:

 

Not everyone associated with the Redskins is buying into the Shanahans' theory. Team radio analyst and former 'Skins quarterback Sonny Jurgensen has a simple message for Griffin: "Quit running."

 

“As a quarterback, you make your living throwing the football," Jurgensen said during an interview with the Washington Post. "If you make your living running the football, you're gonna play 10 games a year. Quit running. Run when necessary; get out of bounds."

 

 

 

 

How come Kaep and Wilson never get touched running the read option? You say the read option will make your QB get hurt, but Kaep and wilson hardly ever get touched when they run the read option. The simple answer is griffin needs to slide it's his fault he was hurt, Wilson and Kaep continue to slide prior to ever being touched. So what Mike and Kyle are saying is true, the read option helps the QB. I mean you saw Russell wilson go from a bum game manager and then turn in a superstar as soon as the seahawks added the read option to their offense. 

 

Essentially we can't scrap the read option until we fix our RT problem. I'd rather attack defenses with the read option then play traditional drop back football if Polumbus/Pashos or Youngblood are still my right tackles. 

[DC9]

Those numbers are more griffins fault than kyle's.

Once he learns to slide and get out of bounds safely it wil bring those numbers down considerably. The read option is here to stay.

 

It's easier to slide and to get out of bound on scrambles than it is on read-options -- which explains why he took twice as many hits per-play on the latter. 

> 

PlayAction: It might destroy Kyle's future with Dan Snyder but I don't think it will have any, or much of any, influence on other teams.

 

Seem like other teams would be concerned with the quality of his decision-making. What am I missing?

 

 

There are more than a few head coaches out there who've been guilty of getting a preceived franchise quarterback roughed up... with prominent coaching jobs in the NFL.

 

If you can win you will get hired.

[Hitman21ST]

Hitman,

Saying Griff isn't exposed to DL/LB on read option is a bit off base, at least in my opinion. Scrape exchanges and athletic players keep those positions in play. I also think you discount the ability of DBs, specifically safeties, to come downhill quickly. Even of the read is correctly made, it doesn't necessarily protect The QB from those other players.

 

I didn't say he isn't exposed, I said in general he's facing DBs vice DL/LB. I wasn't trying to discount scrape exchanges or anything like that. Kyle, however, instituted the FB lead to deal with the scrape exchange.

 

I also didn't say he's protected from anyone. I said he has a better view of where all the defenders are. He's fast enough that when running a read play, he doesn't have to worry about being caught from behind behind the LOS. He can see the corner and all the defenders in the area where he's running. He's not going to be doing any reversing of field behind the LOS or dramatic moves like that.

 

On a scramble, he's going forward, backward, left, and right, either trying to find a receiver or get yards running. The chances of getting blindsided on a scramble are much higher than on a run.

[pjfootballer]

I thought I saw somewhere on NFL network that showed that Luck actually got hit alot more than Griffin by being a pocket passer.

[Oldfan]

SittingBull: You criticize the Shanahans for cherry picking stats but at least they provide numbers. You have provided nothing but opinion other than the Cutler in 2008 stat which is less than 1500 sample size lol

 

The numbers I provided in the OP aren't cherry-picked. They are the only numbers available on the topic.

 

As for my 2008 example of an alternate strategy. It's the same coach and a season's worth of the sacks allowed stat (11). The Broncos did a lot of passing that season too (616 attempts). It's hard to support an opinion much better than that.

[NoCalMike]

Is it fair to assume that if the Shanahan's felt the O-line was better at pass-blocking, they might phase out the read option somewhat?

 

As it stands now everytime RGIII drops back I am holding my breath that the right side of the line doesn't fall over and get him blasted.

[darrelgreenie]

What are the QB hits stats for the rest of the NFL? Or at least for some of Griff contemporaries?

[Oldfan]

DC9: There are more than a few head coaches out there who've been guilty of getting a preceived franchise quarterback roughed up... with prominent coaching jobs in the NFL.

 

Bruce Arians is the only one I can think of and he had Big Ben to coach.  Which is harder to protect, Ben or RG3? That's a grapefruit to apples comparison. You said "more than a few." Who else?

I thought I saw somewhere on NFL network that showed that Luck actually got hit alot more than Griffin by being a pocket passer.

 

You were probably looking at a total hits stat and not on a PER-PLAY breakdown as we are here.

[Oldfan]

Is it fair to assume that if the Shanahan's felt the O-line was better at pass-blocking, they might phase out the read option somewhat?

 

As it stands now everytime RGIII drops back I am holding my breath that the right side of the line doesn't fall over and get him blasted.

 

I don't think so. I doubt that this O-line is worse at pass blocking than the 2008 Broncos O-line who led the NFL with only 11 sacks allowed. Using the shotgun and Cutler's mobility Shanahan made his O-line look better than it really was. OT Ryan Clady, blocking for Cutler, was charged with just 1.5 sacks in 2008. In 2009, blocking for Orton, he had 8.5 charged against him.

[Oldfan]

Our o-line was made to run block for the ZBS scheme, they are most effective in pass protection when they, in esseance, execture run blocks.  Traditional drop back passing game will never do with the talent assebled on our oline outside of Trent Williams. 

 

Traditional drop-back passing is not the only option. Shotgun, Pistol, rolling protections are a few of the other tactics which can be used in combination.

[RG3Hunna]

 

Hunna: There are more than a few head coaches out there who've been guilty of getting a preceived franchise quarterback roughed up... with prominent coaching jobs in the NFL.

 

Bruce Arians is the only one I can think of and he had Big Ben to coach.  Which is harder to protect, Ben or RG3? That's a grapefruit to apples comparison. You said "more than a few." Who else?

>I thought I saw somewhere on NFL network that showed that Luck actually got hit alot more than Griffin by being a pocket passer.

 

You were probably looking at a total hits stat and not on a PER-PLAY breakdown as we are here.

 

I didn't say the first post you quoted it was actually DC9 bro.....but I did ask you how come Kaep and Wilson don't get hit nearly as much as RG3, yet they also run the read option? can you please elaborate on that bro?

[Oldfan]

Hunna: ....but I did ask you how come Kaep and Wilson don't get hit nearly as much as RG3, yet they also run the read option? can you please elaborate on that bro?

 

I don't have the stats on those two. Maybe they WERE hit just as much per-play.

[DC9]

Oldfan: Bruce Arians is the only one I can think of and he had Big Ben to coach.  Which is harder to protect, Ben or RG3? That's a grapefruit to apples comparison. You said "more than a few." Who else?

 

1)  Grapefruits to apples --- doesn't matter.  What matters is what you said in regards to Kyle not getting a look because of his decision making.  If you can win as a coach/you are a good coach you will get a job.

 

Dom Capers - got David Carr killed - Now a Super Bowl Champion Coach with the Packers

Kevin Gilbride - ruined Ryan Leaf - Now a Super Bowl Champion Coach with the Giants

Jimmie Johnson - got Troy Aikman murdered his first year - Won Super Bowls together, Johnson later went on to coach Miami

 

EDIT:  And that's not even getting into bounty-gate and the like...

 

That's off the top of my head...

 

Sample size is too small, bubba.

 

Give it a rest for another year and then re-visit.

 

#OperationPatience

 

[Oldfan]

DC9: That's off the top of my head...

 

 

Dom Capers is a defensive coach who got a demotion not a promotion after Houston; Kevin Gilbride didn't ruin Ryan Leaf. Ryan Leaf ruined Ryan Leaf and Jimmie Johnson was already a head coach. He didn't get his job after getting Aikman killed. Even off the top, that's pretty weak, Amigo.

 

Patience? I have zero patience for a dumb decision. My hope is that the Shanahans are just broadcasting misinformation and they really are not going to go through with their plan to keep featuring the read-option. Of course, I had the same hope when I read that they were thinking of trading for McNabb. 

[RG3Hunna]

 

Hunna: ....but I did ask you how come Kaep and Wilson don't get hit nearly as much as RG3, yet they also run the read option? can you please elaborate on that bro?

 

I don't have the stats on those two. Maybe they WERE hit just as much per-play.

You were able to pull up the stats for RG3's hit percentage, were those stats available for Russell Wilson and Kaepernick as well? 

[Oldfan]

Hunna: You were able to pull up the stats for RG3's hit percentage, were those stats available for Russell Wilson and Kaepernick as well? 

 

 

No, as I wrote in the OP, I got those from the WP. They offered only the Skins stats.

[Gregpeck99]

Without metrics to define the characteristics of a "hit" ... the article you are basing your thread on is trivial.

 

E.G. is a "push" out of bounds a "hit."

 

RG3 was injured on a scramble when Ngata rolled into his upturned leg ... a million to one shot.

 

Cannot draw meaningful conclusions from the superficial stats cited in underlying article.

 

My 2 cents.

[DC9]

 

DC9: That's off the top of my head...

 

 

Dom Capers is a defensive coach who got a demotion not a promotion after Houston; Kevin Gilbride didn't ruin Ryan Leaf. Ryan Leaf ruined Ryan Leaf and Jimmie Johnson was already a head coach. He didn't get his job after getting Aikman killed. Even off the top, that's pretty weak, Amigo.

 

I said "jobs in the NFL".  The only qualifier is they got QBs killed and they could win.  

 

Whats more with Gilbride, he was brought in to be QB coach for Eli Manning.  Then was promoted to OC a few years later.

 

 

Patience? I have zero patience for a dumb decision. My hope is that the Shanahans are just broadcasting misinformation and they really are not going to go through with their plan to keep featuring the read-option. Of course, I had the same hope when I read that they were thinking of trading for McNabb. 

 

McNabb was brought in to be a leader and a stop gap.  He was insubordinate and washed up.  That's a whole other topic though.