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***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

RonArtest15

By RonArtest15
in The Tailgate

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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I also lost a lot of respect for Lowry this postseason too and wouldn't take him as my leader. He's not a **** but he quit on Toronto every bit as much as Kyrie has on Cleveland. He was invisible except when he was playing like a moron and fouling his way to the bench. You could see he just didn't care. Constant gambling. No trust in the team or the system. Completely misplaced aggression and zero focus so that all he did was goon it up and get embarrassed by Wall and Beal.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Guys...he basically had the same numbers as Wall did last year without LBJ

I know we all hate the Cavs/anything LBJ related but let's not lose our minds

Kyrie is one of the best players in the league

Kyrie's game and on court impact are nothing like Wall's, with or without LeBron. He is one of the best off the dribble shooters in the league and thus one of the best scorers. And he's proven to be a pretty good side kick for the greatest player of his generation. Except for trying to check out early of his first playoffs... But he's soft and has zero leadership quality, has never made it through a season or won anything on his own, and if you give him his own team it will be terrible. He gets so much more respect than he deserves simply because he has flashy handles and a pretty jumper.

I don't understand him and Kevin Love. LeBron is the Golden Goose. He's giving them a real chance to win a championship and completely change the course of their careers. This just fell into their laps. LeBron is doing almost all of the hard work, they just had to come along for the ride. Instead Kyrie is checking out and Love never checked in. LeBron is getting more support from JR Smith!

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BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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Kyrie is playing with a knee/ankle injury... I mean it's not like he has a toothache.

You're selling Kyrie really short. If you're hurt, you're hurt. He didn't ask LeBron to come back to Cleveland. It happened and yeah it takes the heat off of him but the guy is still contributing

He and Wall get so much hate. Ppl seem to only love one and irrationally trash the other and it's not just in this thread

Both are good guys. They aren't dicks. I don't get it at all.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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They're completely different. If you like Wall, chances are you aren't going to respect Irving. And if you don't like Wall and love Irving, then you're probably the type that idolizes Blake Griffin and your parents raised you poorly and you will be responsible for the decline of America's greatness.

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BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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Why does it have to be that way? Lol

There is no rivalry between the two teams especially with LBJ being gone so long.

I'm pretty sure Wall and Irving are good friends

I think Wall is a tiny bit better but Kyrie is right there with him.

They're completely different. If you like Wall, chances are you aren't going to respect Irving. And if you don't like Wall and love Irving, then you're probably the type that idolizes Blake Griffin and your parents raised you poorly and you will be responsible for the decline of America's greatness.

And what's wrong with Blake?

You sure you don't mean Chris Paul?

I need a comprehensive list of every player we are supposed to hate

Only guy on my list is Earl Smith lol

Yours must be massive

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RonArtest15

RonArtest15

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Dude that list is laugh out loud bad. We don't usually disagree but

Come on

Only guys better are: CP3, Russ, Steph, Wall, and maybe Lillard

The rest aren't even close

If the dude wasn't hurt right now, he'd be dropping 25 a night

He's a top 5 finisher in the league and I don't understand why ppl think that he's not a playmaker

 

As a POINT GUARD? 

 

C'mon, bro.  He can't run a ****ing team to save his life. 

 

He's ELITE at scoring, but that's it.  Every guy on that list (and I forgot Tony Parker & Rose) has show the ability to run a team better than Irving. 

 

*edit*

 

Reggie Jackson has shown more in his short stint in Detroit than Kyrie has EVER done in his career as far as actually facilitating an offense. 

 

*edit*

 

 2.0 if anyone can explain to me how Kyrie deserved merit on the 3rd team all-NBA as a POINT GUARD, please be my guest.  I honestly don't know how anyone can rationalize this decision.  It's mind boggling and he's clearly benefitting from lazy members of the media voting and also from riding Lebron's coattails all year. 

Edited by RonArtest15
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BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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So we're all operating under the assumption that Kyrie was basically a passenger this season on one of best offenses in the league? If so, then we'll have to disagree

And hell, before this season, who's the best offensive player that Kyrie's had to get the ball to? Dion Waiters? Luol Deng?

every other guy on your list plays with at least one bonafide scorer. Kyrie hasn't had that before this year. The year he gets it, he develops his entire game further.

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Destino

Destino

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Kyrie is a perfect guard to play with Lebron. I've never been all that impressed with him as a point player tasked with getting his team going, but as a scorer he's elite. When Lebron took the point responsibilities this season the Cavs took off as a team.

I don't know where I'd rank him as a point guard but as a guard for his team he's been great.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Kyrie's biggest flaw and the thing that creates an ocean of separation between him and Wall isn't his weakness at facilitating an offense or his crappy defense.  It's his lack of leadership and competitiveness.  He can't put a team on his back and carry them to a successful season.  He has the talent to do it, he just doesn't want it.  He's soft.  It's the same story with Kevin Love.  And I don't like seeing them getting credit and winning awards they don't deserve over guys who are willing and able to lead a team like Wall.

 

As much crap as I give Harden for his cheating and flopping, I respect him for leading his own team and pulling that weight.  He was willing to leave a great situation where he probably could have effortlessly third-wheeled to multiple rings to do it too.  I wouldn't have hated him for staying in OKC, but if he had done so, he certainly wouldn't have deserved the respect of being considered a superstar and MVP candidate.  Now he does.

 

Also, Brave is right that Westbrook is not any better at facilitating an offense than Kyrie.  Well, he's marginally better.  Low IQ play is the most frustrating thing about him by far.  But no one could ever question his competitiveness.  He is absolutely fearless and might be the most competitive player in the league now.  There is not a hint of softness to him.

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BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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See, I really don't like criticizing a guy over "not being a leader" because 99% ppl say that because they don't see a guy yelling and screaming on the court/field.

Kyrie clearly isn't overly emotional so then ppl will knock him as a leader or competitor. They did the same to LeBron. You don't have to be a rah rah guy to be a leader. If Tim Duncan had not won a ring, you'd be saying the same about him

Also, tbh, what team has Wall, Conley, Curry, Lowry, or Jackson put on their back?

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93
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Predicto

Predicto

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I have always felt that Kyrie is overrated, but stevemcqueen is taking it way too far, IMO.

 

He's only overrated if you try to say that he is the best point guard, or something like that.   It's not outrageous that he might make third team all NBA (though I also would have put Wall in over him)

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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None of us know if these guys are good leaders or not.

 

We've got no clue how these guys are in the locker room, watching film, or with their teammates.

 

(on a different topic, the Sixers aren't necessarily going to be defined by this pick or this draft.  Their best offensive player may not even be on the team yet.  They still have 3 1st round picks from other teams floating around out there.

 

Lakers next year top 3 protected

Heat top 10 protected

Thunder top 10 protected.

 

Plus they got a guy they drafted last year still playing in Europe.

 

If there is a dynamic 1,2, or 3 in the draft next year, it isn't unconceivable that even if they are much better next year and have a corresponding worse draft pick that they would have the assets to move up and get that player (especially if they think the Noel and Embid aren't gelling and it makes sense to move one of them).

 

It might also make sense next year, depending on what all picks they get next year to trade back an extra year and acquire even more assets for them (I'd not judge the combination of the #3 pick this year-Embiid, and Noel too quickly.  If all 3 are healthy and the #3 pick this year doesn't seem complete over whelmed by the NBA, I'd probably look to add only one more first round draft pick next year too.

 

Theyve avoided  a Wizards situation where there is clear hole in the team because of a missed draft pick (Jan Vesely), and the resources aren't available to really fill it.

 

Missing on a single first round pick in this rebuild isn't going to have the long end negative affects it has on other teams rebuilding, like it has on the Wizards.

Edited by PeterMP
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Going Commando

Going Commando

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I think you are overestimating the quality of contribution from Wall's teammates. Beal has the potential to be a bonafide stud, but he isn't one yet. You only get flashes of it. He's had like a 14 PER the past two seasons and that's a pretty fair picture of what he's been--a slightly below average starter if we are talking about a veteran and not a 21 year old, who gets graded on a forgiving curve.

Something clicked for him this postseason though. I think the kid could be an AS next season. Or close to it. In which case the Wizards' record will make a big jump.

But aside from Beal's potential, Wall isn't playing with any other All Star caliber contributions and he's the only one in the top five seeds in the last two seasons that that's true about. Pierce has gravitas, but he's 37 and play like 27 minutes a night. Nene is... about where Boozer was for you all last season. And it's not like he was an All Star to begin with. Gortat, Okafor, Ariza, these are all role players that depended almost entirely on Wall to be effective.

I think a good measure of how much Wall carries the team is by noting that he handles the ball so many more possessions than anyone else in the NBA, AND he's the key to making the defense work. Wall's on off differentials are enormous. Like 15 points per 100 possessions. And if you go by a bottom line of wins and losses, over the last three seasons, when Wall has played at an AS level, the team is 124-107 when Wall plays and 7-32 when he doesn't. A 54% win rate dropping to an 18% win rate. Or over the course of a season, that would be a 44 win team versus a 15 win team. In other words, h singlehandedly carries them from up from being one of the worst teams in the league to a playoff team that is a frsky second round out that can push the one seed.

That's as big a burden as any player in the league carries. The dude makes everything work for us.

Kyrie's lack of leadership ultimately played out in the team's lack of success before LeBron came back. But it's not about being quietquiet or reserved. Duncan and Dirk are quiet leaders. It's about how Kyrie checked out on the locker room and got into it with coaches and teammates in the media. He was disengaged and distanced himself from his team and the mantle of leadership. They were already talking trade with him last season. And I don't want to hear an excuse about his coach being terrible because it's about buying in. Thibs never makes it half as long in Chicago if Derrick Rose didn't buy in to him 100%. Wall has been keeping Randy f-ing Wittman employed the last two seasons because he's Wittman's biggest supporter. Wittman never had a fraction of the success Mike Brown had.

And then this postseason it comes out that Kyrie asked his team if they wanted him out there because he was hurting? Are you ****ing kidding me?? I would have been so pissed at him for that alone. They are all hurting and he wanted them to let him out. I mean that type of thought never even occurs to a real leader and competitor. You're a ****ing 23 year old max player and a three time All Star dude. You are the last player that's allowed to quit. LeBron is 30 and has his rings and MVPs. And he's still trying to drag everyone's ass to a ring and get one for the city. He only has a couple of seasons left where he'll be able to do it. If Wall and Beal were playing with LeBron right now they would be frothing at the mouth they would be so hungry. They would be playing like they are going to beat you up in a dark alley, take all of your money, then take your wife out to dinner with it. Hell, just playing with a 75 year old Paul Pierce that is like 30% of the player LeBron is right now had them playing like that.

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RonArtest15

RonArtest15

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Wall has never put a team on his back?  Proof is in the pudding when the team was dead in the water back in the 12-13 season, and when he came back, he had the team playing over .500 ball.  THAT is the effect he has.  As he goes, so do the Wizards. 

 

Can't say the same about Kyrie. 

 

Again...there are about 10-12 PGs I'd probably take over him right now, because I think he's not good at running a team.  However, as a scorer, he's one of the top 3 in the game.  He's more of a SG than anything.  I dunno if you can even label him a combo guard because of how deficient he is at playing the 1. 

 

I'll also ask this question again:

 

2.0 if anyone can explain to me how Kyrie deserved merit on the 3rd team all-NBA as a POINT GUARD, please be my guest.  I honestly don't know how anyone can rationalize this decision.  It's mind boggling and he's clearly benefitting from lazy members of the media voting and also from riding Lebron's coattails all year.

 

Anyone???

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BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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Listen, Wall is my favorite player. Love the guy.

But particularly in the playoffs the last two years, Wall has had guys step up in the playoffs.

Last year Nene took Joakim Noah's soul in the first round. This year Beal was dropping 25 easily a night

Honestly we're arguing semantics but I'm glad we have a forum to discuss things

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