Redskins agree to terms with cornerback E.J. Biggers

[KDawg]

RED,

Your original statement was that any corner would be an upgrade over him. Having seen film of Josh Wilson I can tell you that's overwhelmingly false. He's not even the worst corner on the Redskins roster from last season. Why is it that you feel anyone can replace him with a positive effect? Remember, the term you used was anyone. I agree that there are better corners in the league, but having said that I don't see many that are available in free agency.

Wilson is a quiet player, and our safety play severely hurt our corners this year. DeAngelo was burned a few times because of a lack of safety help himself. Responsibility wise, an argument can even be made that Wilson was more responsible than Hall last year.

So where does the assessment that Hall was better than Wilson come from? And why do you think, no matter how much of a personal bias it is, that Josh Wilson is the worst cornerback in the NFL?

[RED06]

RED,

Your original statement was that any corner would be an upgrade over him. Having seen film of Josh Wilson I can tell you that's overwhelmingly false. He's not even the worst corner on the Redskins roster from last season. Why is it that you feel anyone can replace him with a positive effect? Remember, the term you used was anyone. I agree that there are better corners in the league, but having said that I don't see many that are available in free agency.

Wilson is a quiet player, and our safety play severely hurt our corners this year. DeAngelo was burned a few times because of a lack of safety help himself. Responsibility wise, an argument can even be made that Wilson was more responsible than Hall last year.

So where does the assessment that Hall was better than Wilson come from? And why do you think, no matter how much of a personal bias it is, that Josh Wilson is the worst cornerback in the NFL?

KDawg you're absolutely right bro, he is not the WORST CB in the league. But, in my opinion he's in the bottom half in the league. I totally understand EVERYTHING that you're saying bro. Hell, I agree. He's just not my cup of tea. I don't like his play on the field. I remember that play he gave up against Cinci this past year and I actually called it before it happened. I remember EVERY single time he gets burned for a TD he turns to the refs complaining about something LOL...... I just do not like him as a player. He's my Jason Campbell on defense. You remember how many people bashed him no matter what he did? Well, that's Josh Wilson for me.

[TSO]

In 2011 our Dline had better penetration than last year. So his coverage skills wasn't tested as much in 2011 than in 2012. Still, in 2011 I wasn't impressed with him. Maybe you're a fan on his and that's your right. But I'm NOT.

There isn't a corner in the league that wouldn't benefit from "better penetration", so I'm not seeing how that's a knock on him. We had one of the WORST pass rushing defense's in the league last year (though it improved heavily after the bye week which, shocker, coincides with Wilson's improved play), so the question remains... do you think that's simply a coincidence?

And it's not a matter of being a fan of his or not, it's simply about the truth. Josh Wilson is vastly underrated. He was in 2011 and he still is now. If you weren't impressed with his play in 2011, you simply weren't watching.

He's my Jason Campbell on defense. You remember how many people bashed him no matter what he did? Well, that's Josh Wilson for me.

And with that, you basically admit to simply being biased which would mean we'd be fools to continue to discuss this with you.

[chipwhich]

Yeah, chip spoke too soon. Here's his quote, he actually said "almost" and that is with no edit:

Well if you want to talk semantics Cali talked in terms of SACKS, Darth Tater talked in terms of rushing the QB. The link I posted shows we weren't in the top ten in rushing the QB.

Semantically or not, we weren't elite or almost elite. But we were close to being in the top 10. Or semantically speaking we were on the high end of the middle of the pack.

:-)

[TSO]

Well if you want to talk semantics Cali talked in terms of SACKS, Darth Tater talked in terms of rushing the QB. The link I posted shows we weren't in the top ten in rushing the QB.

Semantically or not, we weren't elite or almost elite. But we were close to being in the top 10. Or semantically speaking we were on the high end of the middle of the pack.

:-)

Semantically speaking shut up. :pfft:

[Thinking Skins]

Franchise is more about building a roster the way you see fit, making guys have good careers, and I like to play multiple teams (like all 4 nfc east). It's not necessarily about just winning super bowls.

Maybe, i generally use it as a practice mode to get better at different routes. I used to create players too and stuff and one version was really nice because you could create players, but only had a certain amount of points so they could only be but so good.

[rk3025]

Biggers injured his shoulder in practice and was on IR the first year.

[RED06]

There isn't a corner in the league that wouldn't benefit from "better penetration", so I'm not seeing how that's a knock on him. We had one of the WORST pass rushing defense's in the league last year (though it improved heavily after the bye week which, shocker, coincides with Wilson's improved play), so the question remains... do you think that's simply a coincidence?

And it's not a matter of being a fan of his or not, it's simply about the truth. Josh Wilson is vastly underrated. He was in 2011 and he still is now. If you weren't impressed with his play in 2011, you simply weren't watching.

And with that, you basically admit to simply being biased which would mean we'd be fools to continue to discuss this with you.

Not being biased at all bro. I was NEVER impressed by Josh Wilson, even in Baltimore or Seattle. I know more about Josh Wilson play than you realize. I'm not going to change my mind either. If you like him and his play then that's all that matters and it would be foolish for me to try and change YOUR mind. That's why I haven't tried to change ANYONES mind about who THEY like or dislike. That's you'll right. So who am I to try and argue or convince you otherwise?

And as far as seeing him play, I've seen him live and in person. Home and away games. I attend ALL but maybe 3 or 4 games a year anyway and have been attending since 1989. What's impressive to you may not be to me or the next person and vice versa. That's like saying because you're impressed by a certain style of woman I should be.........

No ones opinion on this message board is law. It's ALL opinions. But some on here try and act like they a better coaches than our coach, better scouts than our scouts, better fans than any other fan, better talent evaluators than the next etc etc etc. I actually played the game, so I don't get into those kinds of debates. It's USELESS....... I'm glad to see you're a Josh Wilson supporter. I'm still NOT.

[redskins55]

That would be nice, but there isn't much evidence to support that notion. Los was a Jim Thorpe award winner, back to back All-American, a finalist for the Bronco Nagursky award, a semi finalist for the Bednarick award, and a 1st round draft pick in the NFL. The guy is a talented, top tier corner no matter what people think about his hands.

Biggers wasn't even all-Mac. I'm not saying there's no hope for the guy, or that college accolades are the only way to judge NFL talent, but EJ certainly does not have the pedigree or apparently the same level of talent as that of Carlos Rogers.

Rogers was also an NFL All-Pro.

I completely agree that EJ doesn't compare to Carlos. That wasn't what I said. I said hopefully biggers will live up to his potential like Los finally lived up to his in San Fran. Because for all his accolades Rogers literally and figuratively dropped the ball while he was here .

---------- Post added March-23rd-2013 at 10:09 PM ----------

He shed the stigma because he had laser surgery. Something he should have done here. At least that is what the report was,

Los just needed a change of environment. He's still not living up to his 1st round pick potential as he can't even become the #1 DB over there. But he is playing better .. Hopefully that's all EJ needs is a change

[Rocky52Mc]

[/color]

1) You gave stats on 5 or 6 CB's. There are 96+ CB in the league. My question was where do Josh Wilson ranks amongst them[/quote

In 2011 our Dline had better penetration than last year. So his coverage skills wasn't tested as much in 2011 than in 2012. Still, in 2011 I wasn't impressed with him. Maybe you're a fan on his and that's your right. But I'm NOT.

There's somewhere in the range of 150 CB's on rosters in the NFL.

I gave you an answer to your question. Josh Wilson ranks in the top 5 at BUMPING THE RECEIVER OFF THE LINE.

1 CATCH ON 42 ATTEMPTS. Are you KIDDING me? This also needs to shut people up who are like "WHY IS THE CB BUMPING AT THE LINE OMG WHY"

That's why, because he's one of the best at his position with it. That's also with a HORRIFIC safety situation, like completely HORRIFIC. And dude, yes like someone else said argument over. You're closed minded, it's not an insult at all, it's just what you defined yourself as. You don't like Josh Wilson because one or two big plays that stick out in your mind and you probably threw your remote at your TV, or your daughter, or you ex-wife, idk.

If you actually "PLAYED THE GAME" you would completely understand that CB play isn't about shutting down your receiver the entire time. It's not about "not getting burnt" it's about being confident, and remaining confident when you do get beat by the best in the game. Obviously you weren't playing the best in pop warner so maybe you didn't get that experience..

But at this point in time, you're trolling without realizing you're trolling. You don't like Wilson because you just don't like him, and that's all. Your bias is so strong that nothing will change your mind.

Ignorance: "The state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc."

Closed Minded: "Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas."

Denial "A refusal to accept or believe something, such as a doctrine or belief." <--- this is where we're currently.

[J-bomb]

IMO, I'm with LL I don't trust PFF when it comes to rating dbs! They have no clue between the cb or saf on who's responsibility it is covering wr in diff coverages. So they just say it was cb fault when sometimes it was the safety or they blame a safety when it was the corners. LL went at them on twitter an they had no logical responses to his obvious facts that he posted in gifs to rebut there flaws! After that anytime I see someone post stats from that site about secondary players I laugh an move on to the next post or thread..

[RED06]

[/color]

There's somewhere in the range of 150 CB's on rosters in the NFL.

I gave you an answer to your question. Josh Wilson ranks in the top 5 at BUMPING THE RECEIVER OFF THE LINE.

1 CATCH ON 42 ATTEMPTS. Are you KIDDING me? This also needs to shut people up who are like "WHY IS THE CB BUMPING AT THE LINE OMG WHY"

That's why, because he's one of the best at his position with it. That's also with a HORRIFIC safety situation, like completely HORRIFIC. And dude, yes like someone else said argument over. You're closed minded, it's not an insult at all, it's just what you defined yourself as. You don't like Josh Wilson because one or two big plays that stick out in your mind and you probably threw your remote at your TV, or your daughter, or you ex-wife, idk.

If you actually "PLAYED THE GAME" you would completely understand that CB play isn't about shutting down your receiver the entire time. It's not about "not getting burnt" it's about being confident, and remaining confident when you do get beat by the best in the game. Obviously you weren't playing the best in pop warner so maybe you didn't get that experience..

But at this point in time, you're trolling without realizing you're trolling. You don't like Wilson because you just don't like him, and that's all. Your bias is so strong that nothing will change your mind.

Ignorance: "The state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc."

Closed Minded: "Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas."

Denial "A refusal to accept or believe something, such as a doctrine or belief." <--- this is where we're currently.

See here you go again. LOL!!! I've seen Josh Wilson career long before he came to Washington dude. Bump and run is only 1 area of the game. My question was very simple. Where does Josh Wilson stats (ENTIRE) stats falls in the NFL among other CB. And if you took the time and read I stated that there are 96+ CB in the league. Plus (+) meaning more.........All of that other stuff about my wife, daughter, throwing my remote and pop warner league etc etc just proves my point of just where your maturity level is as a person when someone don't agree with your point of view. There's NO need for me to bring ANY insults or any other topics outside of football in my reply to you. Be it your wife, family, job etc etc. That's VERY childish.

As far as trolling, show me where I've trolled? KDawg, MartinC , Submittedone (sp) and I where all having a RESPECTABLE chat with no rants or insults. Then come you.................yet I still will show you respect and respond ON topic even though you showed none.

Now depending on the coverage called the safety is NOT always responsible for the CB top coverage. In some coverages the LB is responsible for a 3rd of that CB side of the field to interrupt streak pattern or slants if that's the call. Safety help over the top only counts in a cover 2 man ( 2 man under), cover 2 zone, cover 1 depending on which side of the field someone has motioned to etc etc. When a CB gets burned it's NOT always due to bad safety play depending on what defense was called. Bump coverage just about always have safety help over the top will hence why his numbers where better. Bump and run also depends on whether he had a bump release coverage. IT'S SO MANY factors in what coverage was actually called.

I also realized that you only quote certain parts of my response to respond to. Quote the whole thing and discuss ALL of it. This is much like you did with the 5 CB bump and run ONLY stats study you did. I will ask again WHERE DOES HIS ENTIRE GAME RANK IN THE LEAGUE??? NOT JUST BUMP AND RUN..............with bump and run there's ALMOST ALWAYS help over the top and underneath. And without me trying to prove ANYTHING to you, I did play after college for a while. And I played at Clemson div.1. That's all I will say to you.

[Jumbo]

Whether anyone thinks RED's opinion on Josh is overstated (I tended to think that, for instance, but no big deal) or whatever, he's conducting himself quite well under rather (oddly) extensive grilling from several posters for one comment on one topic and he has also said a number of reasonable things on some general matters beyond his original opinion. We are big around here on challenging our fellows' opinions and holding each other accountable for claims made, and I also realize these are slow and boring times, but how about move on pretty soon. The matter seems pretty milked of worth. Not a directive at this point, just some observations and a suggestion.

[Est.1974]

Poor old EJ.

In most offseasons, he'd be a low key addition. But not during this barren free agency period.

For his sake, I hope he turns out to be the next coming of Darrell Green..

[MartinC]

Now depending on the coverage called the safety is NOT always responsible for the CB top coverage. In some coverages the LB is responsible for a 3rd of that CB side of the field to interrupt streak pattern or slants if that's the call. Safety help over the top only counts in a cover 2 man ( 2 man under), cover 2 zone, cover 1 depending on which side of the field someone has motioned to etc etc. When a CB gets burned it's NOT always due to bad safety play depending on what defense was called. Bump coverage just about always have safety help over the top will hence why his numbers where better. Bump and run also depends on whether he had a bump release coverage. IT'S SO MANY factors in what coverage was actually called.

I think you make some great points in the para above and it points to why it's very very hard to grade corners and indeed safeties without knowing exactly what coverage was called and what the coverage rules are in that situation which can vary from team to team to some extent. Even sites which spend a lot of time doing break downs and rankings like PFF suffer from this. Add in the variability of pass rush and play calling and it why I take grades and rankings given by these sites with a big pinch of salt.

Watching yourself is the best grade and even then you have to accept you might not know what your looking at given as Red points out well without knowing what the coverage call actually was.

[rk3025]

You made a good point that Linebacker play effects Cornerback top coverage

[RED06]

Whether anyone thinks RED's opinion on Josh is overstated (I tended to think that, for instance, but no big deal) or whatever, he's conducting himself quite well under rather (oddly) extensive grilling from several posters for one comment on one topic and he has also said a number of reasonable things on some general matters beyond his original opinion. We are big around here on challenging our fellows' opinions and holding each other accountable for claims made, and I also realize these are slow and boring times, but how about move on pretty soon. The matter seems pretty milked of worth. Not a directive at this point, just some observations and a suggestion.

Thank you Jumbo for stating this. It means ALOT to be able to agree or disagree without insulting one another. I love my Skins just as EVERYONE on this board. I never feel a need to belittle my fellow ES members for their rightful opinions.

---------- Post added March-24th-2013 at 09:54 PM ----------

I think you make some great points in the para above and it points to why it's very very hard to grade corners and indeed safeties without knowing exactly what coverage was called and what the coverage rules are in that situation which can vary from team to team to some extent. Even sites which spend a lot of time doing break downs and rankings like PFF suffer from this. Add in the variability of pass rush and play calling and it why I take grades and rankings given by these sites with a big pinch of salt.

Watching yourself is the best grade and even then you have to accept you might not know what your looking at given as Red points out well without knowing what the coverage call actually was.

MartinC EXACTLY bro!!!! So MANY different factors are involved in the coverages called that we don't know, because of how so many defenses are hiding their true coverage. Bunching guys on the line showing blitz and end up in a cover 3, fire zone blitz, drop zone blitz (that Rob Jackson fooled Toney Romo sits to pee with and Eli Manning with). etc etc etc........too many different factors. But I appreciate having this gentlemens discussion with you bro even though we didn't agree on some points.

[KDawg]

Coverages are actually quite easy to decipher. The issue is how players are taught to play within the coverages. Some like a press style, some don't. Some like to play with a cushion, some don't. Some are taught to ride a seam, while others prefer you pass the seam off (I never understood passing it off within certain contexts, but hey, to each their own...). It also depends on who your keys are. Some systems have some wildly different reads.

So while you may be able to tell what coverage a team is in, you don't know what progression a DB is taught to work through. So while it may seem obvious that a receiver is going to the flats and the corner has flat responsibility in this particular iteration of cover two, he may be hanging with the vertical threat of number one until something shows. A delay route to the flats screws with that assignment quite a bit.

Then you have other coverages such as Quarters. Which isn't a four deep coverage despite what Madden says

You have SKY and CLOUD off of quarters, which determines which player is the primary force player. CLOUD is the corner, SKY is the safety (and every team has different terminology for these things )

Then you have rules for different sets, such as how the corner aligns versus a nub set.

So it's actually difficult to analyze what exactly is going on in any particular scheme, especially in the NFL... Even if you recognize the coverage. And I didn't even talk about cover 2 with rolled coverage...

[Sekhmet187]

I can't claim I have some hidden insight, but after watching the games I can not say that Josh Wilson is any better than any other starting corner in the NFL. There are probably close to 60 other guys I'd rather have than him. Having said that, I don't think hes worse than some of the 3rd or 4th guys on other teams.

Still, I don't get how D Hall gets brutalized here and then Wilson gets a free pass. You can talk about stats all you want, but he was around the ball a lot when it came to TDs, and regardless of if you're going to explain to me that "it was his safety help that failed on xyz play" or that a pass rush makes him better, the point is that hes not that good, nothing special and certainly isn't above criticism. He gave up quite a few big plays yet most people seem to cut him some slack whereas plenty of other players have given up less and still get hammered. IDK, I don't get it, but thats just my opinion.

I'd rather play Biggers and Crawford and give Wilson the slot, then put Wilson on guys like Dez, Maclin, Nicks or the like. At least we don't really know what Crawford or Biggers' ceilings are yet, I'm pretty sure the book is written for Josh having played for 6 seasons and being 28 years old. But, I also realize someone like Crawford needs more time to get his feet wet so Wilson is probably going to be the #2 for the rest of his time here, until someone else is ready.

[MartinC]

Coverages are actually quite easy to decipher. The issue is how players are taught to play within the coverages. Some like a press style, some don't. Some like to play with a cushion, some don't. Some are taught to ride a seam, while others prefer you pass the seam off (I never understood passing it off within certain contexts, but hey, to each their own...). It also depends on who your keys are. Some systems have some wildly different reads.

When you talk about reads thats what I meant about the 'coverage rules' in my post above. Knowing what the coverage is - or at least thinking you do because NFL teams normally go to a lot of trouble to disguise coverages - only gets you so far in working out what a specific DB or linebackers responsibility are on a given snap.

[Jumbo]

So it's actually difficult to analyze what exactly is going on in any particular scheme, especially in the NFL... Even if you recognize the coverage. And I didn't even talk about cover 2 with rolled coverage...

Reflective of the many reasons that when I see one of our resident pinhead...i mean play-calling experts...belch out their "analysis", when pissed the opposition actually made a play during a game thread, it's all I can do not to immediately ban them

[KDawg]

Reflective of the many reasons that when I see one of our resident pinhead...i mean play-calling experts...belch out their "analysis", when pissed the opposition actually made a play during a game thread, it's all I can do not to immediately ban them

I tend to not say much when I see some of the asinine things posted here... But sometimes some of the rubbish that is posted hurts my head.

One guy, the other day, blamed every catch to a receiver that Josh Wilson was originally aligned over on Josh Wilson... He even went ahead and said he didn't care if it was zone or man... It's Wilson's fault.

That one had me at my desk.

There's a lot I don't know about in this world. Hell, there's a lot I don't know about football still... But if I ever tell someone how rocket science works, feel free to throat punch me...

[Jumbo]

There's a lot I don't know about in this world. Hell, there's a lot I don't know about football still... But if I ever tell someone how rocket science works, feel free to throat punch me...

Of course, any typical forum on a message board is fertile ground (a veritable Petri dish, in fact) for these matters. The widespread lack of even trace evidence of humility at times notably dovetails with the proliferation of ignorance + arrogance (my patented term) and ego issues, especially prominent among so many males in our culture. It's a big part of what makes this place (particularly tailgate threads) one of my primary sources for grad level developmental psych or personality theory course material when doing the adjunct teaching role...:evilg:

[KDawg]

Of course, any typical forum on a message board is fertile ground (a veritable Petri dish, in fact) for these matters. The widespread lack of even trace evidence of humility at times notably dovetails with the proliferation of ignorance + arrogance (my patented term) and ego issues, especially prominent among so many males in our culture. It's a big part of what makes this place (particularly tailgate threads) one of my primary sources for grad level developmental psych or personality theory course material when doing the adjunct teaching role...:evilg:

I had to read this three times to figure out what it meant. It's so intellectually above my head that one time wasn't enough to grasp it's message

I think it was your use of multisyllabic words that threw me off.

Ignorance + Arrogance is a great patented term, by the way. And accurate at that.

[MartinC]

It's a big part of what makes this place (particularly tailgate threads) one of my primary sources for grad level developmental psych or personality theory course material when doing the adjunct teaching role...:evilg:

I demand royalty payments on use of my psychosis as teaching material :evilg:

---------- Post added March-25th-2013 at 10:42 AM ----------

I think it was your use of multisyllabic words that threw me off.

This is why you played O'Line :evilg: