Chalk Talk Discussion: Putting the Smashmouth Back Into Football

[KDawg]

Evolution is real, and it's a part of the football landscape at every level. From defenses to special teams and offenses all the way to drill work, things have changed quite a bit in the football landscape. Play calls like "70 Chip" and "50 Gut" became synonymous with power football during Coach Joe Jackson Gibbs first time through in the 80's and into the 90's. And that's not even mentioning the counter trey.

But as with all things, things change. Whether it be through necessity, or due to the cyclical nature of the game, strategies evolve. The current trend in football is the spread offense. Pee Wee teams run more of it. High schools run it. College teams run it. NFL teams run it. It's a very, very real part of football that was merely a blip on the radar decades ago. And after this year, the new trend will be the zone read pistol look. It's kind of ironic that the Redskins under Gibbs, and now under Shanahan, revolutionized the game.

But with these new trends comes the overwhelmingly painful stigma that spread football = finesse football. Bill Walsh started setting up the run with the pass, which was a change in philosophy for many. At that time, people believed that the run always sets up the pass, not vice versa. Walsh threw conventional wisdom out the window and went with a new system that he thought would work. In essence, the short pass would partially replace the run game and force defenses to focus on the pass, thus opening the run. I have to wonder, though, were people saying that Walsh's system was merely a gimmick at that time, much like people are calling the Kyle Shanahan Pistol Zone Read West Coast Stretch scheme a gimmick? (In addition, we need to come up with a better name for it than that).

But for whatever reason, using formations with multiple receivers on the field became known as "pretty boy" play. Soft.

I beg to differ. While there are still many teams throughout football that employ mostly power formations (Did anyone watch the Rose Bowl?) the overall trend has been to spread defenses out a bit more to create one on one matchups with the receivers and to see less defenders in the box versus the run. That doesn't make the "newer" concepts soft, or finesse.

The zone blocking scheme isn't finesse in the least. Sure, it relies on quicker linemen, but they have to whip their opponent on every play. The current run schemes, including zone and zone read are as smashmouth as they were back in "the day". The difference being the emphasis on getting to the second level (linebackers) with your offensive linemen. Our starting offensive line is mammoth, with only one starter that weighs under 300 pounds. Yet I continually hear that the zone scheme requires smaller, quicker linemen.

Let me tell you... No. It doesn't. It requires more athletic linemen, so quickness is a part of it. But with the way athletes are training, eating and supplementing today, it doesn't necessarily mean smaller.

Don't believe me? Here's the linemen on our roster. (* denotes a starter, +indicates playing time in regular season):

Chris Chester* 6-3 309

Tom Compton 6-5 308

Adam Gettis 6-2 292

Maurice Hurt+ 6-3 329

Josh LeRibeus+ 6-3 315

Kory Lichtensteiger* 6-2 284

Will Montgomery* 6-3 304

Tyler Polumbus* 6-8 305

Trent Williams* 6-5 328

Pat Boyle (PRACTICE SQUAD) 6-5 301

We have only two linemen under 300 pounds. Yet, the common thought is that when you run a multiple receiver offense, you're finesse. People see RG3, who is a very finesse player (he's tough as nails, but he glides when he runs and looks good while doing it) and think that our offense is a finesse offense. First off, if injuries weren't a concern, I have no doubt Griff would be lowering his shoulder to take on a would-be tackler. Second, that's just a lazy opinion.

That's not to say finesse football teams can't or don't exist. But those teams exist, not due to scheme, but due to personnel. They don't have the players that can dominate in the run game, so they rely on the short pass.

We may not be running "70 Chip", "50 Gut" (although, this may be upsetting to some, but those plays were zone blocking plays) or the "Counter Trey" any more. But make no mistake about it. This Redskin team is smashmouth. We run the ball, we get down hill and we punch opposing defenses in the mouth. There is nothing finesse about the way the Washington Redskins have played this year, even in the rough parts of the season.

Evolution in the game is wonderful, but man, it's great to see someone get their face smashed in by an offensive linemen with a mean streak.

Hail to the Redskins!

[JMUSkins]

It's obvious that Shanny likes guys on his line who are athletic and can get to the second level. When our line is purely playing pass-pro we aren't quite as effective. I guess it's a casualty of the scheme, but with a guy like RG3 who can avoid pressure I feel much more comfortable.

[DC9]

Great post KDawg. Some great new threads today. Good job and good topic!

People questioned how our offensive line (percieved to be a weakness) plays so well against the Giants pass rush. It's because our smaller, QUICKER linemen can get to the blocks and stay with the athletic linemen of the Giants.

This is why I am not all that worried about the Seattle defensive line. Our overall scheme and the skillset that each of our individual linemen has is athleticism and speed. They will get to their blocks on the line and at the second level.

I also got in to an argument with my best friend, who is a Packers fan, saying that we have the best Wide Receiving corps in the NFL. He laughed and said that I would easily trade our guys for the Packers recievers. I said, "Not one." He thought I was joking and asked "why?" and I looked him dead in the eye and said, "Our WR can do everything that the Packers can do. We have speed. We run routes well. We catch the ball well (most of the time). But our WRs block the hell out of some DBs. The Packers WRs are too pretty for that nonsense."

I'd rather have a bunch of junkyard dogs than a bunch of grayhounds at wideout all day long.

[KDawg]

People questioned how our offensive line (percieved to be a weakness) plays so well against the Giants pass rush. It's because our smaller, QUICKER linemen can get to the blocks and stay with the athletic linemen of the Giants.

I have to recant this. Our offensive line is not small. They are athletic, for sure. But they certainly are not small. Maybe it's all in how you define the term "small" in relation to an offensive lineman. But in my book, if you're over three bills, you're not small under any definition

I'd rather have a bunch of junkyard dogs than a bunch of grayhounds at wideout all day long.

Absolutely. I love receivers that can go up and make a great grab. But if you're not willing to block with conviction, I'm not willing to employ you.

[Skins Wingman]

I'd rather have a bunch of junkyard dogs than a bunch of grayhounds at wideout all day long.

i like me some mike wallace, but on that play against the cowboys when the ball intended for him was intercepted, he made absolutely no effort to try and tackle the corner. he looked scared to make contact. that ended up costing them the game in overtime.

pierre garcon and josh morgan are absolute monsters when blocking, and when they get the ball, are not afraid of contact.

[DC9]

I have to recant this. Our offensive line is not small. They are athletic, for sure. But they certainly are not small. Maybe it's all in how you define the term "small" in relation to an offensive lineman. But in my book, if you're over three bills, you're not small under any definition

Right, I see what you are saying. But everytime a high draft pick at linemen is released by another team... the first thing we do is look at his weight, lol. If he's over 320lbs we are normally coming to a consensus opinion that he will not work out here in Washington, lol. And this is before we look at any video of him.

[SWFLSkins]

But for whatever reason, using formations with multiple receivers on the field became known as "pretty boy" play. Soft.

I see that you already hit on it later, but our WR's have done a phenomenal job down the field blocking extending plays by both Morris and RGIII. Paul as well. People nail him to the wall for dropping passes yet he gets no praise for sealing the outside for long gains. Cooley had an especially nice block on the last run against Dallas for the short TD. I love the physical nature of this team and the line probably set that tone.

[G1]

I love our running game. I absolutley love a game plan that is so well schemed and executed that it leaves DeMarcus Ware totally unblocked but clutching shadows.

[laurent]

It's obvious that Shanny likes guys on his line who are athletic and can get to the second level. When our line is purely playing pass-pro we aren't quite as effective. I guess it's a casualty of the scheme, but with a guy like RG3 who can avoid pressure I feel much more comfortable.

You can go back as early as preseason, and one thing that stands out is that our offensive line just isn't very good individually. When our lineman are asked to sit back in pass protection bad things tend to happen.

Trent Williams is really the only above average to great lineman this team features, and with the exception of Montgomery and perhaps Lichtensteiger, I don't see any guys that would be starting for any of the other playoff teams.

Individually this line is very average but with the way they're playing together and executing their scheme, there isn't a better run blocking line in this league.

That's why I'm a bit hesitant to accept that our ineffectiveness in obvious passing downs is a victim of the scheme.

Mike Shanahan and the rest of the coaching staff deserve a ton of credit for devising a scheme that takes advantage of this teams strengths and covers up some of the weaknesses.

To be a true contender, this team needs to get much better up front, and when it does, this offense has the potential to be scary good.

[bowhunter]

I'm a big fan of Josh LeRibeus, so I excitedly watched his arrival when Lich went down. I was very happy to see him pancake a Dallass linebacker on his second play of the game. It's fun to watch our linemen get to, and dominate at the second level.

[martytheman]

Great post KDawg. Some great new threads today. Good job and good topic!

People questioned how our offensive line (percieved to be a weakness) plays so well against the Giants pass rush. It's because our smaller, QUICKER linemen can get to the blocks and stay with the athletic linemen of the Giants.

This is why I am not all that worried about the Seattle defensive line. Our overall scheme and the skillset that each of our individual linemen has is athleticism and speed. They will get to their blocks on the line and at the second level.

Agree, I posted the same thing in the beat seattle thread.

I think this team was designed to match up well against teams like the giants (who were the nfce kings when Shanny took over)

Hence the reason they came soo close to consecutive year sweeps of them.

I really think the skins offense will match up well vs the seattle D, and negate a large portion of what that D does best (similar to the giants)

I love how the skins like to jam all the defenders up in the middle of the field then run to the outside or hit a crosser... it opens massive cutback lanes for AMO when the entire defense gets flowing in one direction or the other.. and I think the skins o-linemen will have no problem getting to the 2nd level and blocking the hags lb's..

If the seahawks wanna pull this kind of crap and leave their db's on an island, I look for the skins to cruise to a victory

from this article on cnnsi, can the seahawks secondary beat rg3

http://nfl.si.com/2013/01/01/break-it-down-wild-card-weekend-preview-seattles-secondary-vs-rgiii/?sct=uk_t11_a6

[laurent]

I'm a big fan of Josh LeRibeus, so I excitedly watched his arrival when Lich went down. I was very happy to see him pancake a Dallass linebacker on his second play of the game. It's fun to watch our linemen get to, and dominate at the second level.

I didn't pay too much attention to LeRibeus to be honest, but the play that stands out to me was him whiffing on a block that ultimate led to the roughing the passer penalty.

Blessing in disguise, but LeRibeus got trucked. Got out of his stance with horrible technique and never had a prayer of winning the matchup with Hatcher.

[bowhunter]

I didn't pay too much attention to LeRibeus to be honest, but the play that stands out to me was him whiffing on a block that ultimate led to the roughing the passer penalty.

Blessing in disguise, but LeRibeus got trucked. Got out of his stance with horrible technique and never had a prayer of winning the matchup with Hatcher.

Uggh. I didn't realize that was on Josh

[JMUSkins]

Uggh. I didn't realize that was on Josh

He's still a rookie... playing in the biggest game so far this year. I think his future is very bright.

[Darth Tater]

Right, I see what you are saying. But everytime a high draft pick at linemen is released by another team... the first thing we do is look at his weight, lol. If he's over 320lbs we are normally coming to a consensus opinion that he will not work out here in Washington, lol. And this is before we look at any video of him.

But that is more because of OUR misunderstanding. One of the main reasons a lot of Shanny's offensive linemen tend to be smaller than average is that those guys have always relied on technique to get where they are while an available guy that is really big, is probably available because he relies on the fact that he's large and strong rather than technique.

[DC9]

But that is more because of OUR misunderstanding. One of the main reasons a lot of Shanny's offensive linemen tend to be smaller than average is that those guys have always relied on technique to get where they are while an available guy that is really big, is probably available because he relies on the fact that he's large and strong rather than technique.

If you have a guy who is 6'5 350lbs that can play every snap and is fast and can play in the zone running scheme than absolutely he's a valuable guy. I've never seen a zone scheme tackle or guard that big. That's just a lot of weight to carry around. I'm sure they are out there, but as you said, they just aren't available and they are very few and very far in between.

Chris Baker is one of my favorites on this team, he's Barry Cofields backup at NT. He weighs about 330lbs and can't really stay on the field very long when spelling Barry because of his size.

[ThomasRoane]

They were definitely mashing the d-line on that last TD drive! You're right that the ZBS is more than just getting in someone's way. You do want your lineman to gain an advantage using angles. But you also want that lineman to work his man upfield if possible. That's what makes Trent so good. He can flip his hips to seal the edge and also put his man on his back.

Here's something to consider too. With so many teams emphasizing the pass game most teams have been shifting towards lighter, speed guys on the d-line. Giants are a good example and I think our o-line has so much success vs them because our strengths (athletic, strong lineman) exploits their weaknesses. Seattle likes to get upfield quickly too. The beauty of that pistol series (I've heard the full house version referred to as the Uzi) is that the Seahawks can try load 8 in the box and get everyone upfield. But even a limping RGIII can make them pay with a 10 yard gain. Also, the slip screen and pitch game really stresses the perimeter of the defense.

[DC9]

Uggh. I didn't realize that was on Josh

Yeah but he had three pancakes when running the ball. That stuff will come in time. I'm VERY high on Ribs.

EDIT: In fact, I think it was the second run after he came in, we ran right over him and Trent and he folded his dude up.

[Darth Tater]

If you have a guy who is 6'5 350lbs that can play every snap and is fast and can play in the zone running scheme than absolutely he's a valuable guy. I've never seen a zone scheme tackle or guard that big. That's just a lot of weight to carry around. I'm sure they are out there, but as you said, they just aren't available and they are very few and very far in between.

Chris Baker is one of my favorites on this team, he's Barry Cofields backup at NT. He weighs about 330lbs and can't really stay on the field very long when spelling Barry because of his size.

But such a guy is not going to be available and few exist period. The guy you are talking about is going high and will not be on the street at any point or will play another position.

[KDawg]

But such a guy is not going to be available and few exist period. The guy you are talking about is going high and will not be on the street at any point or will play another position.

Yup. The reason some of the smaller guys are often available is because they aren't viewed as "fitting", or as physical freaks. They're viewed as undersized and allowed to walk. If you found a 350 pound guy that could move, you wouldn't let him go. Furthermore, Trent Williams is 330 and moves quite well. That's about as big as you see an athletic OL being, but still.

[KDawg]

You do want your lineman to gain an advantage using angles. But you also want that lineman to work his man upfield if possible.

These two premises... No matter how good, and strong and huge your OL is... I don't see why teams wouldn't employ them. *shrug*